Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 26, 2003 07:46am | #1

   Bob, if you can get ahold of the April 2003 copy of Woodworker's Journal (Vol. 27, No. 2), Kelly Mehler's cabinet saw review is on pp. 80-98.  He reviews Bridgewood, Delta, General, Grizzly, the Hammer K3, Jet, Laguna, Rojek, Powermatic and Shop Fox.

   In addition to the comments on individual saws, he provides general information about cabinet saws which I found very educational,  and gives you a feel for how the saws compare given each one's cost (e.g., the Grizzly 1023 is low-priced, but what's missing?).

   Don't worry about Jet copying things.  There has been little new in the cabinet saw world for many years, and all of the saws have many things in common and a few differences, as far as design goes.  Quality of construction and little details -- that's another story.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   NormInFujino | Aug 26, 2003 06:20pm | #7

   There has been little new in the cabinet saw world for many years, and all of the saws have many things in common and a few differences, as far as design goes.

   There's the rub. The rest of the world has been going with sliding miter tables and riving knives, and the U.S. is still stuck with 1930s designs. U.S. woodworkers need to protest to their manufacturers that they join the 21st century with affordable, up-to-date designs. ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 26, 2003 08:21pm | #8

   Oh so true, Norm.  After reading Mehler's review a few months ago, I was much more in a mindset to save up for a European saw someday than to go with what we've settled for here for so many decades.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   JDorn | Aug 26, 2003 04:44pm | #2

   Keep an eye on your local used tool market.  About a month an a half ago i picked up a 3 HP Right Tilt Unisaw with a 52 inch Biesmeyer fence for only $700,  I just about had a heart attack when the guy offered it to me at that price.

   Now if the summer heat would just die down enough so that i can spend some time in the shop using it i'd be a happy man.

   JD

3. 
   Manchild | Aug 26, 2003 04:55pm | #3

   I second what JDorn said about buying used. It's hard to mess up a cabinet saw so buying used shouldn't be a problem.

4. 
   jagwah | Aug 26, 2003 04:57pm | #4

   I've got a 5hp right tilt unisaw with a 52" beismeyer fence and I'm in heaven. Ever since it first fired up I thought the most beautiful sound was my daughters cries at birth. But she's been away for a few years now . Hope she doesn't read this.

   Anyway all the reviews I researched never convinced me I'd get my moneys worth or the support that Delta offers.

5. 
   DJK | Aug 26, 2003 05:29pm | #5

   Bob:

   Purchase a used saw and spend the cash saved on lumber. I'm currently running three Unisaws and a PM 66 all with 52" Unifences and have less invested than the cost of a single new machine. Some people on this site think it's cool to spend a wad of cash on a new machine so they and their friends can stand back and drool like kids in a toy store. Most have never used a vintage American made machine, yet they complain about quality issues with new machines. What a shame they can't see past the shiny paint and polished tops. My '42 and '55 Unisaws are as shiny and run smoother than their Grizzly and Jet saws.

   Same for the Dewalt 13" planer in another post. Look for an older Rockwell 13" variable feed. Picked up mine for $550. Over 600lbs. of iron and with the 5hp motor can hog off 1/4" per pass. The variable feed range is 10-25 ft. per min.

   Some need to wake-up and smell the sawdust.

   Dave Koury

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 26, 2003 08:34pm | #9

   DJK, in some areas of the country a person could grow old and die before finding the right tool used.  Getting the gems that you've found isn't necessarily doable for everyone in a reasonable amount of time.  Take, for instance, a person who works 40-60 hours a week in a "straight job" and does family stuff and woodworking in his/her spare time.  That person might not be networked in such a way to have a nice old 15" planer, or similar saw/jointer/lathe etc. come into the sights.  Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not as likely in that situation as in some others. 

   The temptation to buy new can also be influenced by what's already in the tool stable.  I have a tablesaw now, such as it is, so I'm much more willing to browse the ads until a good vintage cabinet saw shows up at the same time there's cash in the bank.  However, if I needed a planer and got tired of waiting for a used gem to come available, I'd make the best decision I could on a new one (looking like the DeWalt now, fer sure).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   riverr1 | Aug 26, 2003 05:37pm | #6

   Bob,

   My opinion of Jet copying other designs more then likely came from me. It's also something I've accepted from others. Bear in mind that this does not mean the jet does not make a good saw. Also jet makes much more then saws, so this opinion of mine involves the company more then any individual product. It's your decision.

   Don

7. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 26, 2003 09:53pm | #10

   In addition to the Woodworkers Journal, the Oct issue of Wood Magazine has a comparison test of cabinet saws. I don't think it's on the newsstands yet, but you might want to take a look at it.

   As I recall, Grissley was Best Value, and Bridgeport was best overall. The Unisaw was highly rated as usual but the Powermatic seems to be continuing it's decline.

   Probably, you could make your choice by color and not get a bad saw.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/26/2003 2:54:33 PM ET by Howie

1. 
   jc21 | Aug 26, 2003 10:19pm | #11

   Was the General 350 or 650 tested?

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 27, 2003 01:31am | #12

   They tested the General 650-T50-M2M (whew!).  Lots of "up arrows" (high points) including the Baldor motor, finish left on boards, flatness and stiffness of the fence, beefy components and efficient handwheel design.  Only two low-points:  the manual and fence scale only in 1/16".

   The General got the "Top Tool" award, and the Grizzly got "Top Value."  The Shop Fox has some serious design flaws, IMO, the Craftsman was waaaaaay bad (2 High Points and 5 Low Points).  The Delta X-series did quite well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   jc21 | Aug 27, 2003 05:25pm | #15

   Thanks for the info ....... hafta hunt down a copy of the magazine.

2. 
   riverr1 | Aug 27, 2003 01:46am | #13

   Actually, the 650(left tilt) got top honors! The powermatic was in the test, but they didn't evaluate it because of overwhelming problems. The saw was replaced by powermatic, but apparantly too late to be includedrated in the review. I don't think this is indicative of the 66 in any way though. A fluke. Just one of those things. Long discussion of this on Woodnet.

   Don

   edit...here's the link but fair warning, a lot of brand loyal arguing embedded in this topic:

   http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=601954&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=

   Edited 8/26/2003 7:28:03 PM ET by Don C.

   Edited 8/26/2003 7:30:14 PM ET by Don C.

8. 
   vacabby | Aug 27, 2003 03:24am | #14

   Bob,

   As many folks know I have a rather large shop with a Delta RT-40 on one end and a Grizzly 1023SL on the other.    I can't compare the two because there is a difference and you would expect one for $10,000 difference in price.    Having said that, the Grizzly came to me with a great fit and finish.   Went together well.   Set up easily and runs every day as a work horse in my shop.    I am still a believer in this saw and for the money feel it is a great value.   I have recomended it to many folks and had calls back in favor of it's performance.    I have several Grizzly tools.    Honestly, I own a couple that I made poor decisions to buy and wouldn't buy again.   This saw however isn't one of those bad decisions.   This is a great tool for the bucks invested.

   See I don't put all my stock in magazine reviews.     I can't help but feel that there is some bias toward those companies that support these magazines with their advertisements or are members of national vendor organizations.    One hand washes the other.    I place great stock in personal feedback of those I know use the equipment and work it hard.    I also believe that many people get too caught up in having the cadillac on the market when a well construction chevrolet will meet their every need in the shop.   Rather than having the very best more people should concentrate on what is best for their needs.    Does a guy that spend 5 hours a week in his shop need an RT-40.    I doubt it.    Taking the time to set-up properly, tune your tools and keep them tuned can turn an average piece of equipment into a great operating tool.    A great piece of equipment can turn out junk if not maintained.

   Good luck with your decision.

1. 
   nohrn | Aug 28, 2003 05:03pm | #24

   Thanks, Great advice.. I probably spend less than five hours a week in all my wood working projects

9. 
   DeskJockey | Aug 27, 2003 10:07pm | #16

   Bob,

   Although they are usually not spoken along with PowerMatic or Delta, I think the Jet 3hp left tilt cabinet saw is an excellent tool.  I agonized over the decision for months, and I ultimately got the saw for a couple hundred less than I would have payed for the Delta.  I have had nothing but great success with the tool and would recommend it highly. 

   Along the lines of ForestGirls comments, the one thing that I have learned over my very short life as a woodworker is that most of the top tier tools out there are roughly the same, after that only personal preference and personal budget take over.   Most reviews bring out some reason why brand x might be better than brand y, but the fact of the matter is that a few companies (in certain product lines) have consitantly performed exceedingly well for decades, and if you want piece of mind, pick one of those (any one) and enjoy it.  Don't underestimate buying something that your local woodworkers store carries.  When I had trouble with another saw, having someone to help me deal with the manufacturer and take the tool back was invaluable.  These stores often care a lot more than the companies that make the tools.

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 27, 2003 11:03pm | #17

   I just saw the article today, and I was surprised by the quality of the cut from the Jet saw. Wasn't good at all. I have a friend with one of the old blue Jet cabinet saws, and the quality of the cuts off of his saw are much better then what the magazine showed. A disappointed aspect of the article concerning this was the lack of an explanation about the cut. Was this the way the saw came out of the crate, or was the the best cut the saw could be adjusted to?

   Don

   ----sorry about not proof reading this before posting. Not sure how I pulled it off, but it was pretty unreadable.

   Edited 8/27/2003 8:22:49 PM ET by Don C.

   Edited 8/27/2003 8:24:23 PM ET by Don C.

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 28, 2003 03:00am | #18

   Don, I was pretty suspicious of that whole quality of cut thing too.  Given the lack of information provided, it's pretty bogus, and I'll be very surprised if there aren't a few letters to Wood about it.  I have one of the Old Blues but it's a contractor's saw and it provides an excellent cut.  IMO, if they wanted to test quality of cut, they should have used the same blade in each machine and verified that the saws were tuned as well as possible.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   riverr1 | Aug 28, 2003 03:27am | #19

   Yep, review are entertaining, but most lack the setup to what they follow through with in the reviews. I would have also have liked to know what it was that Powermatic said they have corrected with the saws that was giving the cut that it was. A side note from a rep saying nothing more then the problem has been corrected is a blank statement that offers no information to the reader.

   Don

1. 
   jc21 | Aug 28, 2003 06:47am | #20

   Is the Powermatic still made in the US? Last I heard, WMH had closed the foundry in Mcminnville, TN and they no longer say the 66 is made in the USA.

2. 
   riverr1 | Aug 28, 2003 08:38am | #22

   JC,

   I've heard various stories on that one, and I really don't know. The most plausable to me though is that much of the saw is made overseas, but assembled here where the US parts like the Baldor motor is added. But that's a guess on my part, but I think it's safe to say from all that has been said with no outright refuting, that the saw is not 100% American made.

   FG,

   That was an interesting feature. Something I had never seen or heard mentioned before. The problem with the fence has been addressed for awhile. I'm kind of surprised it's still the way it is. One of the guys on WoodNet, maybe "Don in NC" has mentioned a couple of times that he bought a 66 knowing he would be replacing the fence. That's brand loyalty there.

   Don

   Edited 8/28/2003 1:39:32 AM ET by Don C.

3. 
   jc21 | Aug 28, 2003 03:37pm | #23

   I've used 66's and Unisaws at shops I've worked at in the past and both were good saws. The 66's seemed to have a bit less vibration. The tables on the new 66's don't seem as substantial as the Meehanite process tables on the older saws. Of the new saws, I've been impressed with the Generals- they seem more solid and substanial than either the 66 or the the Unisaw. 'Course that doesn't mean they'll work better- I've never had to chance to try one. There's something to be said for older equipment, too. Best tablesaw I've ever used was an old Walker Turner ............. quiet, very smooth and effortless cuts, not even a hint of vibration. Trouble with older equipment is finding it ............. never seem to be in the right place at the right time.

4. 
   forestgirl | Aug 28, 2003 07:39am | #21

   The one thing about the Powermatic that really caught my eye was the concave-ground gears, pictured in the upper left-hand corner of page 79.  Seems like a feature that all good saws should have, especially when getting into the cabinet-saw $-level.  Too bad the fence and dust collection didn't perform better...forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   mike4244 | Aug 29, 2003 01:52am | #25

   I have used most of the brand name cabinet saws. Don't believe the stuff about the quality of the cut on the Jet. Powermatic, Jet , General ,Grizzly and Delta will all give you an excellent quality cut, and for many years to come. It is possible they tested a saw with an arbor that wasn't machined correctly. More than likely it was the blade, not the saw. Could be the operator, wood, or something I haven't thought of.

   The last shop I worked for before retiring had a left tilt Jet, right tilt unisaw, and 2 right tilt Grizzlies. Each saw had Forrest rip blades or occasionally the combination blade, woodworker ll . You got excellent results from all four saws.

   I take all magazine tool ratings with a grain of salt.

   Mike