Howdy
So I’ve decided I want to update my sharpening system. Currently I only use a 600/1200 DMT duo sharp stone. It gets me sharp, but not really sharp. Sharp enough to do most tasks but I dunno, I’m looking to add that next level. I went with the combo diamond because I kinda hate the mess of water stones, and more notably, work in a shared shop so I need to be able to just grab something and start sharpening, no soaking required.
I’m thinking 3 and then 1 micron PSA diamond film on glass or mdf as a cheap option. But if I have to replace the paper forever vs a high grit stone that will last the rest of my life, what is really cheaper? Diamond paste also seems interesting.
Other option would be to pick up a 4k diamond stone or equivalent and call it a day.
600 for grinding primary, 1200 for micro bevel, 4k for polish.
I sharpen like 3-4 times a year.
This is coming to a head for me because I was making some drawers with half blind dovetails and while I got through it, I wasn’t paring quite the way I’d like to be. And when it came to flushing up and fitting the drawer with a plane, I had to get out the orbital cause I just made a mess of it. Partially due to set up and inexperience but my planes could definitely handle a sharper blade. Just to show off, attached is a pic of my first ever half-blinds.
Any advice on building off this DMT duosharp fine/very fine (600/1200) stone would be much appreciated.
Replies
Are you sharpening by hand or with a jig. And if so, what style of jig?
It seems like you’ve got everything you need and consider waterstones kept soaking in airtight Tupperware type containers for ease of use.
But before adding anything new, I would simply just increase my sharpening interval beyond 3-4 / yr.
I have an old eclipse 36 I got at an estate sale. A lot of my tools are from estate sales, and I'm slowly starting to realize the value in a new tool when learning.
For example, I've been using a marking gauge made by shop fox. I got it used. I've been using it and thought it worked as it should. I recently borrowed my shop mates new veritas marking gauge and holy moly guacamole. I didn't realize it should actually be cutting, not just denting. Now I've honed the cutter and its much better. I just never knew...
Point being, I'm always questioning the old eclipse -it just doesn't feel like it does a good just of locking square.
There are a bunch of articles on getting the eclipse style honing guides to work better. But even fixed up, they are inexpensively made. I used them for years, and . . . me.
I have the Lie Nielsen now, and it's the same idea. But it's like it was made by NASA, not a toy maker. The difference is night and day.
I sharpen carving tools freehand, but planes, chisels, and spokeshaves on the Lie Nielsen guide.
In 2019, FWW reviewed all the honing/sharpening guides and that Veritas you tried was #1 I would consider upgrading to get a good square lock on the blade as you sharpen. Add a higher grit stone to your arsenal, match your sharpening interval to level of use, and see where that takes you.
First I have no idea how much work you do in a year, I also don't know your tools because they do make a difference some steels hold edges significantly better than others. but when you say you sharpen 3-4 times a year that could be the beginning of your problem. I will typically sharpen 3-4 times or more on a single project and I have quality tools that hold edges well, Veritas VM-11 chisels, Lie-Nielsen and Veritas planes, etc.
That said a 1200 grit diamond stone is certainly not sufficient to get you a sharp and strong edge. Remember sharpening is nothing more than gradually replacing scratches with finer scratches and by doing so you produce a stronger edges as the scratches get finer and less likely to fracture and chip dulling the edge. I will add that by sharpening so infrequently you are making the sharpening process more arduous than it needs to be. Removing chips from edges takes longer and wastes more steel than if you simply honed your tools more often. It should only take a few minutes to put a razor sharp edge on a plane blade or chisel.
Sharpening is a very individual thing and I personally have complete sets of waterstones, diamond stones, lapping papers and a Veritas Mk. II power sharpening system and each has their place in my sharpening routine.
My suggestion for an inexpensive way to expand your sharpening arsenal is to start with this kit from Taylor Tool works. It will give you an inexpensive introduction to better sharpening practices. With two lapping plates you can put a different grit on each side to give you 4 different easily accessed grits. A couple of spritzes with a spray bottle of water mixed with Honerite Gold and I'm ready to put a shaving quality edge on my tools in minutes. I also use a silicone dish drying mat to contain any excess water they are much cheaper than similar mats marketed to sharpening.
One last tip when using lapping films I only apply pressure on the pull stoke. I find it reduces the chance of a sharp tool cutting the film.
https://taytools.com/products/two-sheets-5-16-x-5-x-12-float-glass-and-7-sheets-3m-psa-lapping-film-for-scary-sharp-system
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YBFF4J5?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Frequent sharpening is an absolute necessity. On a recent project where I used a vintage #12, I had to learn to sharpen that style blade, which too some experimenting. Once I learned, I found myself sharpening it about every 15 minutes. After some practice, it only took about 3 minutes. Granted, turning a hook on a scraper plane blade is different from chisels, etc. but you get the point.
I started off using a combination of oil stones and films/paper. Messy and expensive in the long run. Went to water stones, but with no water in the shop, always needing to flatten, etc etc, I abandoned that.
For many years I've been using the DMT Diasharp, and I'm very happy. I use them dry, and they work great. I'm very happy.
If you like your diamond stones, stick with it. But as mentioned above, 1200 grit is not nearly fine enough. DMT makes Diasharp down to 8000 mesh. I use the 8000, and finish on an ultrafine ceramic stone, also about 8x3 in size. I also use a Lie Nielsen honing guide.
I can't imagine changing my sharpening regimen again. It works perfectly for me.
Chuck, have a look at the Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine ceramic stones. The downside is that they are only 2" wide (which is wide enough for me since I mostly freehand), however the upside is that they require no more than a spritz (I use soapy water), and they remain flat forever. Think of them as the oil stone of water stones.
I do not recommend the films - they are excellent, but will end up very expensive in the long term. Great for travelling, but a poor choice in the workshop.
ALL sharpening media require some fluid to wash away swarf. If you do not lubricate the medium, then the swarf builds up and blocks the grit, making sharpening slower. A spritz of soapy water will improve your diamond stones.
The Spyderco stones are a little space age. They may need flattening to start (out of the box) and I would recommend a Coarse diamond stone. However, once done, they stay flat better than oilstones. The Medium is around 2000-3000 grit, and the Ultra Fine is around 8000-10000 grit. There is a Fine, but it is unnecessary.
You can follow up - if you choose, but it is not necessary - with green compound. I scribble it on planed hardwood or MDF and use it like a ultra ulta fine stone. I do not use leather.
Regards from Perth
Derek
p.s. I was one of the first flat woodworkers to use CBN wheels, and probably the first to write about it. Here is my original article:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html
This will give you an idea of where the Spyderco fit in with a grinding system.
The Spyderco ultra fine is available in 3x8. Great stone. I'm not sure about the medium.
Do you have an opinion on the argument against sharpening 0-1 on a CBN wheel, and only using high speed steel?
John, you can grind ALL hardened steels on CBN wheels. There is a great deal of misinformation in this regard. What you need to avoid grinding is unhardened steel. Even then, you can unclog the CBN wheel after this by grinding hardened steel again.
Regards from Perth
Derek
That's been my experience as well. But the "don't try regular woodworking tools on CBN" is starting to become dogma, and from what I've seen it has no basis in fact.
Water stones are not so bad. I use a yellow King whetstone after my DMT extra fine diamond plate (1200) and that works fine. I use the coarse DMT plate to lap the King. It is no more messy than the diamond plate really and does not need to be kept wet.
I follow that up with a hone on scrap MDF with a thin smear of green compound as I have yet to obtain a proper strop. This setup will easily cut harder woods with no tearout on endgrain. It's not perfect on the very softest woods to be fair - it could be sharper, but it meets my needs.
Why spend more? Just buy a yellow King to follow the diamond, or do as John does and buy the 8000 grit diamond.
Always worth watching Rob Cosman's vids - he is captain of the Canadian boring team, but he's very, very good.
My thoughts exactly.
I just don’t get the aversion to then”mess”?
I don’t know how anyone gets by without a sink!
Some of us don't have a choice,most outbuildings on properties aren't plumbed and adding it later gets extremely expensive if it's even possible and trust me it's a PIA.
Running water to a shop is easy. Running a drain . . .
Can't have one without the other, at least not legally.
Or a big mess.
Mine goes to a soakaway so it's not suitable for cleanup.
Soakaway?
Hmm. Getting a yellow king is really tempting right now. My aversion is this. I’m getting resounding input that I should hone more often. If that is the case, is the king really ready to go with just a spritz? 5 minutes would even be fine but 15-20 is pushing it. Aversion #2, having to buy a store yet another piece of gear to flatten it. A good lapping plate seems to be quite pricey. How well would norton 220 on a mdf block do? When it comes to honing on a 6k equivalent stone, you’re only making a few strokes right? Do you really need to flatten after every use?
I must admit, I do really enjoy the feel of a water stone. I have a 400/1000 I use at home for my kitchen knives.
Pretty sure you could flatten it with your diamond plate. Or even some paper on glass.
I always say the easiest way to start a fight in a bar full of woodworkers is to start talking about sharpening methods.
I don't know why some say PSA lapping sheets are expensive? I can buy individual 8.5" x 11" which I can cut into 3 strips for $4.99 and that will last 2-3 years, never need flattening, and the expensive diamond lapping plate. If I buy a 7 pack of all the grits it's even cheaper at $24.99 or $3.43 each. A 2 plate starter set with paper is $34.99 on taytools.com a 3 plate set is $43.99. How much cheaper can it get? I will confess my first attempt to use lapping paper didn't impress me but once I learned to only sharpen on the pull stroke and I stopped slicing my paper I was sold. Its quick, no fuss, and the results are impeccable.
That aside, I'm surprised more of you haven't commented on what I perceive to be the OP's underlying problem; that's is his sharpening frequencing. If I'm about to hand cut dovetails the first thing I would do would be to hone the chisel(s) I am about to use and if I'm cutting a number of them I will probably touch up once or twice along the way and I have some of the best edge retention chisels you can buy.
This is where I fell in love with the lapping paper a spritz or two of water and a couple quick passes on the finest paper and I'm shaving sharp in minutes. I don't need to soak stones and deal with the resulting mess and I feel I get a better more consistent polish that I get from my complete set of DMT diamond stones which I invested hundreds of dollars in.
Again I diverse, I really think the OP would benefit most from us advising him to sharpen not only to a finer grit, however he chooses, but to sharpen much much more frequently.
Ooooh - another sharpening thread: my favourite! :-)
SO many options .....
I'll disagree with Derek and agree with Mr 5995 - 3M micro grit on a PSA film is tough stuff and lasts a surprisingly long time if used with care. Inexpensive, little or no mess (unlike water stones) and more effective than even the finest diamond grit plate.
I have two float glass plates with each side covered in two or three grits of 3M films, down to 1 micron. These will make and maintain a superb edge on all the blade metals I have, from the softest to the hardest - although I have no ultra-hard Japanese blades, just the usual O1, A2 and one D2.
For some years I used DMT diamond plates of 600, 1200 and 10,000. For reasons I don't really understand, the 10,000 grit plate will produce a good edge but not one as fine as the 1 micron 3M film.
On the other hand, how sharp does a blade need to be? You can make some metals fantastically sharp - but that sharpness won't last more than a few swipes when applied to various timbers.
Personally I find 10,000 diamond or 1 micron 3M sharp enough for anything; and even though that sharpness decreases initially after a few swipes, a compromise of edge-to-timber is reached where sufficient sharpness is kept for some time before either blunt or chip appears in the edge.
When a bit of blunt is evident, a rapid strop on MDF or hard leather charged with honing compound will bring back "sharp" for a good while. (Chips need a resharpen, though).
********
A guide to sharpen makes life a lot easier. Some use an initial hollow grind from a grinding wheel to ease hand-sharpening. Personally I'm too cack-handed to get that right and always rely on a Veritas Mk II guide to resharpen - although hand-stropping is OK to bring back an edge .... until a re-sharpen is needed.
And let's not forget to mention The Unicorn! This is a buffing wheel enhancement of a sharpened edge that introduces a teeny-weeny round over that, counter intuitively, makes the edge stronger and longer-lasting without reducing sharpness. Look it up.
Lataxe
Hey y'all
Thanks for the many responses! I was hesitant to post about sharpening since I know its very personal, but in the end hoped some of you regulars wouldn't mind it being brought back up.
I do have experience with the scary sharp system, but it was like a year ago and I have learned much about sharpening since. I liked it, but then had a change of mind and decided I needed to buy a stone instead of reinvesting in the paper all the time. I trust when you guys say it last a while. It just didn't for me due to malpractice. I used to think you needed to grind and hone the primary bevel all the way through like .3 micron, then go back and do a micro bevel all the way through to the same micron. I also thought a micro bevel needed to be like a quarter the of the primary. I dunno, that's what happens when you don't have a teacher and are of Generation ADD and can't make it through a youtube video.
Late last night in a midnight shopping session I bought the 5, 3, and 1 micron diamond paste pack. I hate when you gotta buy like 5 things just to make something work, which is why I was drawn towards diamond stones. No begging for glass scraps at the local A1 glass shop, no stones to flatten other stones, tupperwares full of water, etc. I live and work in Brooklyn NY, where space is limited to say the least. I rent a 50 square foot area with a bench in a 4000 square foot shop. Great access to tools like a 12" Oliver jointer for an example. But my personal storage is already at it's limits, so minimalism is part choice, part necessity. I'll always be able to find some maple, mdf, whatever to rub some paste into.
The more I look into ceramic stones the more I'm likely to go that route. I was trying to research them last night after coming across some "ceramic water stones" and just got a bit confused and abandoned the idea. I'm assuming the ceramic stones mentioned here are different since they don't need any soaking.
Derek, are the ones you mentioned similar to the shapton glass?
I feel like I have a lot more to say/ask but don't wanna make this too long, so I'll stop here.
One last note. Point taken on sharpening more often. I kind of fibbed. I said I sharpen 3-4 times a year, but in reality that's not that accurate. While I have owned a decent set of chisels for a few years, as I stated in my initial post, I just finished my FIRST half-blind dovetails. So as you can imagine, most of my chisel work prior was pretty rough. Chopping rough joints to later be screwed together, that kind of stuff. I've since fallen for the finer side of building. So I'm just now starting my journey. Ask me next year and I could give a more accurate timeline on my sharpening regime.
Chuck, Spyderco are very different from Shapton Glass. They are much, much harder than the Glass and do not wear out. (Aside: The Glass are overrated and excessively expensive for what you get. The Shapton Pros are better, and Sigma are better than Shapton).
Regards from Perth
Derek
I know I may sound like a dinosaur but what's wrong and complicated with an Arkansas stone? I grind the face on a 8 inch wheel, now that I have a 360 grit CBN that is a charm, then any medium grit stone, could be an india but I use an old norton syntetic oil stone, and then the hard white arkansas and if I want scary sharp, I have a harder black arkansas and a leather strop.
You are not a dinosaur. Whatever works ...
In general, some steels, especially those harder and more complex alloys, will work on an Arkansas, but are inefficient ... slower cutting.
There are always pros and cons. The advantage of an Arkansas is a longer wearing surface.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Nothing wrong with it. I use oil stones on carving tools. I just prefer the ease of diamond and ceramic for planes and chisels in the shop, especially with newer steels.
All these systems work, as Derek points out. Most of us go through the phase the OP is in. He was on the right track, but he was stopping at 1200 grit. Now he's adding different media in, looking for better.
Scary sharp. Oilstones. Water stones. Diamond plates. Pick one and stick to it.
Well ... some like to pick them all, give them a go, then pick another one. This is known as "crazy consumerism". :-)
However, playing with alternative modes of anything is often quite educative, as one may personally compare and contrast; and the old stuff can often be sold or given to a friend.
But I quite like sharpening albeit not to the degree that I'll do it even when it's not needed. Some do, you know!
Lataxe
PS I'll just mention that Unicorn again. Also said to make even cheap steels usable and resilient.
Just a little update to all you that offered some guidance on my journey towards sharp.
I took the advise from many of you and kind of mashed it together a bit. I think it was a case of, I needed to put it out there and get some feedback for it to resonate. Now that it's "clicked", I'm now on my way to a finer edge.
I had a chisel that needed some work and went to town on my 600/1200 diamond plate. Reground the primary on the 600 till the whole bevel was reset(took a minute but got there) and I had a nice burr. I put a secondary bevel on with about 5-6 strokes on the 1200. I don't know if I mentioned, but I had a "scary sharp" set up I put together a year or so ago and stashed away. Well I pulled that out and I did some polishing using 5, 1, and .3 micron 3M paper. Removed the burr and was in business. Paired some end grain on a piece of cherry and felt good about it.
Block plane needed a little love, set it up in the guide and pulled it on the same 3 papers. I totally get it now! It took like 2 minutes and I was mad sharp again. I will most definitely be sharpening much MUCH more often.
Here's a pic of my set up. Just got some paste in the mail and excited to try that. I think a 4000/8000 stone is in my future but gonna hold off until I figure out what will best jive with my style. As one of you mentioned, I may just need to try it all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .
Happy honing!
Chuck
I found the key to sharpening more often is to make it as simple and fuss free as possible and why I've gone to the glass plates and 3M film. They are easy to store, light weight, each plate can have 2 grits and a spritz or two of water and I'm ready to go. An added benefit is minimal mess and clean up is needed.
These are the poly film with PSA adhesive I assume? Do you have any "issues/problems" with air bubbles trapped btw sheet and glass? I have for years used sil carb. sheets with 75 adhesive...but am going to try some of the 3M sheets.
I too tried silicon carbide and spray adhesive and did not like it. Look into the taytools kits I linked earlier in this thread they are available with 2 or 3 glass plates each can hold 2 grits and come with an assortment of pre cut 3M PSA paper that should last you a year or more. In the space of 3"x 9"x 1" you can store 6 different grits ready to go with just a spritz of water. I also recommend Honerite Gold or similar additive to prevent rusting. Just remember to only put pressure on the pull stroke when I first tried the films I sharpened as I did with stones and kept cutting the paper which dramatically shortened their life.
What about air bubbles mentioned above? Always use pull strokes on sandpapers
I don't have a problem with air bubbles with the 3M PSA papers on the glass plates
I did however have a problem with some no name PSA papers on a granite slab.
Thanks
Just got the 7 pack of the films. I read the instructions calling for "washing your hands with small amount of soap, then rub hand across the glass to dampen" prior to affixing the sheet - "water will then evaporate". I read of another user doing similar wetting glass prior to adhering sheet. Do you do this as well?? Seems "slightly" counterintuitive.
Yes I do. I think the soap reduces the surface tension of the water helping to reduce the air bubbles you were concerned about.
IN THE BEGINNING Tage Frid,in conjunction with Fine Woodworking,wrote what was then a 3 volume set of woodworking (now 1 v0lume)wisdom that answers 50% of the issues raised in this forum.In those days I managed an enormous banking computer facility but would sneak time to study with the master.I read and re read and tried every suggestion.When we get basic questions,we who have some experience do a somewhat disservice to those questioning.Direct answers often do not help.Looking to the advice given above often addresses the greater issue.however the type of stone or device is not the issue in my opinion.The be tter answer is to look up ann the fine videos and articles on sharpening.Learn why you need to polish the backs.Learn the grinding angles for each tool .Why camber a plane blade. .When is a back bevel appropriate .Study,study study
Videos only get ya so far. Eventually ya just gotta do & ask questions.
Look up sharpen-net from Lee Valley
“Sharpening” it’s like starting a “Friendly Bar fight”, if there is such a thing, with only one word uttered. Many of us have invested way more time, $$$$’s and effort than necessary. You’ll arrive at your destination of “sharp enough” thru many methods. I finally arrived at mine after watching Rob Cosman’s video’s for sharpening. He has a system that is simple and hard to beat. After prepping the tool (chisel or plane blade) his “32 seconds to sharp” is simple and hard to beat for plane blades. He uses the same for chisels without the “Charlesworth Trick”. Finishing both tools with the 16,000 Shapton has given me the ultimate sharp edge I sought after for years. He encourages you to do it all by hand (read “No Honing Guides”) and you can. I still use my Veritas II honing system to get the correct angle but the finishing touch only requires a little practice to reach “Nirvana” sharpness on the 1,000 diamond plate then the Shapton 16,000. Since following his advice I dropped using everything else. I use the tools every day and can tell you his method has saved me a ton of time and made for infinitely better results. I like the looks of my work and for once don’t worry as much about the small stuff like I used to. While this may sound like a commercial for Rob, as he sells the stuff he demonstrates, you don’t need to buy anything from him to achieve the same excellent results, I didn’t. Cost is always a factor and most of us are very budget conscious and trying to make do within our financial ability. You’ll end up spending a lot more over time trying to “Get there”. Hope this helps because you and many more (including me until now) are on what seems to be a never ending journey. Check out his youtube channel for the sharpening system. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wWX2ursXfqw
Good luck to you and other readers. We all seem to learn something from this forum. Thank you, Fine Woodworking for providing this forum for us to communicate.
Agreed. The journey is made more enjoyable by being able to share our experiences here on this forum.
Answer me this. I did watch this video the other day and tried this system out, although mine is a bit different, I would expect results to be similar to a degree.
I ground a bevel to 25* on my slow speed grinder with the stock white wheel. I followed that by putting a 30* micro bevel on with a few strokes on a 1200 grit diamond plate. That was followed by honing on 5 micron, 1 micron, and .3 micron paper. While I am without a doubt much sharper than I was getting when I first started this thread, I'm not getting a mirror like polish on the micro bevel. The bevel is very hard to see at 1/64th or so, but I can still see a scratch pattern. Is it possible that the jump in grit is too large to really refine the scratch pattern? That super refined edge is what will keep us sharp, no?
I believe I'll start working on free hand honing ASAP.
It's possible you never removed the original scratches from the grinder, and that's what you're seeing.
The most common progression for sharpening is 1,000 - 4,000 - 8,000. Which in microns is about 15 - 5 - 3. So your jump from 1200 grit to 5 microns is spot on.
If you still have scratches you either didn't take enough passes when honing, or you are contaminating the finer grits with the course. Keep them separate, and clean yoin-between.
I learned to sharpen freehand 40 years ago, when that's all there was. I still sharpen carving tools freehand, because that's all there is. I use a Lie Nielsen guide for all my plane irons and chisels. It literally takes me less than 5 seconds to clamp it on, and I get the same precise angle every single time. It's fast, and it's perfect, and it's identical. I'd encourage everyone to use a guide. Sharpening freehand is not better, or faster, or more virtuous.
I personally prefer to step up in multiples of 2x. In other words I would do 1000,2000,4000,8000,16000 if desired.
Especially when using diamond stones I've always felt they leave some deeper scratches than Waterstones or lapping film. In fact if I started on diamond stones I often make my first pass or two on the same grit of the lapping paper. I've just never been able to achieve the same mirror polish with diamonds as I could with my old water stones or the 3M lapping paper.
+1
Any abrasive has a range of particle sizes. With a water or oil stone, the surface of the stone is flattened to a level and the larger particles are below the cutting surface.
With diamond, the particles are sitting on top of the steel plate, bonded in place. Larger particles sit higher than the smaller ones and will produce deeper scratches in the tool. As these break down the diamond stone feels less aggressive but running the tool to a less used part of the stone will still result in these deep scratches.
Even on the PSA sheets, the larger particles can bed in the film.
I've had great luck with the films when I use them. The two finest films with soapy water will put a razor edge on in no time.
I like my waterstones for more challenging steels and Japanese tools. I've been revisiting oilstones for carbon steel and freehand touchups. India stones are fast and don't have the scratching issues I described with diamonds.
No matter the method, even 5 sharpening sessions per year is going to be too little. Touching up early and often will make hand work much more pleasant and effective.
From the above, lots of good way to get sharp tools. Here is mine, so don't be hating on me, OK?
I don't do a lot of straight hand tool stuff but do use many sharp edges to get good results. I use mortise, bevel edge, and paring chisels along with block, 4 1/2, jack, and jointer planes at various times.
When we were investigating granite counter tops or our kitchen update, we were given samples to take home to see how they would look in our setting. So now I have 6 nice flat surfaces for tool sharpening. (I thing we settled on the first sample we looked at but that could be the start of a home improvement comedy show.) I made up wood frames to hold top & bottom wet/dry sandpaper strips, up to 3000 grit. I use a Veritas jig, pull stroke only. After pulling enough to get a 'burr', I go to the free edge to work the back on each grit, then move up to the next one. I bought a nice wide leather belt from a used clothing store, nailed two sections to a board and rubbed white and green on respective stripes. Hand pull several times on bevel and back side. I get a mirror finish I use this hone when I am doing chisel work, swipe several times and return to work.
Works for me. And now I am waiting for the thread many ways folks use to sharpen card scrapers.
@chuckvandyke - I’m guessing here, but it seems that the original grind marks from the wheel were never completely removed. Stay on the 25 degrees and use a 300 grit diamond to remove the grinder grooves. Be patient, this takes time. Next do the 1200 at 25 degrees to get a light polish. At this point you can go right to the .3 for a final edge at 27 or so degrees. As John_C2 remarks, using a guide is very helpful to maintain the proper angle. Making sure the original grooves from the grinder are gone is the important step here. And for the final act of sharpening don’t forget to use the “Charlesworth Trick” on your plane blades. Going forward it’s a few strokes on the 1200 with a final few strokes on the .3 and the Charlesworth trick and in less than a minute you’re back in business. Always clean up well between stones to insure against cross contamination. Good luck.
I should add that, after the initial sharpening and setup, my grinder or coarsest stones will never get near the cutting edge of a chisel or plane iron. Not in normal use, unless you hit a nail or something.
The grinder is just removing the bunch of steel that is making honing more difficult. Stay away from the edge. Get that excess steel out of the way, take a few or half dozen strokes on 1,000 grit at the secondary angle, and hone. You should never have to touch the actual edge with anything course than 1,000 grit -- and often, not less than 4,000.
"my grinder or coarsest stones will never get near the cutting edge of a chisel or plane iron. Not in normal use, unless you hit a nail or something."
Or drop one point down. And they never land butt down, do they?
Is that actually a thing though? I hear people talking about it, but I've never dropped a chisel, plane, or hand saw.
I use the system of diamond stones by Paul Sellers in which I have a coarse, fine, superfine then followed by leather strop and honing compound. I've been very happy with it. Sounds like you almost have that system. All you might need is a superfine stone and strops are super easy to make. I've been very happy with it.
Last night I touched up a plane iron going up to a hard black Arkansas. I had the blade cutting newsprint and shaving hairs off my hand. Then I decided to make it even sharper and reached for the strop and green compound.
The edge got shinier but wouldn't cut hair or paper anymore. A few more strokes on both sides of the edge and I was good to go again.
It makes me question the value of the strop, which I have used for years. Carefully managing the burr did a lot more for me.
My mistake was not recognizing when I was truly sharp. I am exploring oilstones and assumed the Arkansas stone was coarser than the strop material. Not so.
An Arkansas stone is coarser than a strop. But a strop can dub 9ver an adge, or move a very fine burr over the cutting edge.
If you used a leather strop you rounded the edge because the leather compresses as the iron is drawn over it. No choice but to re-hone. If you feel you need to use compound or diamond paste use it on a surface that will not compress, like MDF.
I used pretty light pressure to avoid rounding the edge. I was surprised, knowing that the Arkansas is coarser than the compound.
I only did the bevel side. I'm thinking I may have started a new burr by doing only one side.
I do also have a wood block with compound on it but grabbed the leather this time. I only mentioned it because a great edge can be had off stones and stropping isn't a guaranteed improvement.
Whatever you do, you have to do both sides. Always.
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