use of a double boiler & hide glue !!!
user-172496
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hello All !!! I need your advice, I am using hide glue for the first time. And I am employing a double boiler. If I am correct the water goes in the lower pan, now the question is do I have to have water in the upper pan ( as I have a small stainless steel dish inside the upper pan ) as I don’t want ruin the upper part of the double boiler, or the lower part either for that matter.
Can anyone see anything wrong with what I have described, if so please set me straight.
Thanks for your help.
Jack
Replies
It's been a while since I used hot hide glue, but I think that the double boiler may be too much heater for your glue. I recall the glue should not get hotter than about 140 degrees. A hot glue pot would be the best investment if you are doing a lot of work with hot hide glue but they cost nearly $100. But I bought a cheap Rival electric hot pot for around $10. With the thermostat turned almost all the way down, it kept the glue (in a glass jar, in a water bath) at a good consistent temperature. Perhaps your double boiler will do the same.
http://www.jameseddywoodworks.com
You've got it right. If you search the web a little you'll find instructions, but you're on the right track.
Double boilers are used to heat evenly. So put water in the lower pot, then start with 50-50 water and dry glue in the upper. When the glue melts, check the consistency. Too much water won't hurt it, you just leave it alone and reduce it.
Only mix up small amounts, especially for your first few tries. Using hide glue is a skill you must learn. You don't just squeeze it out of a tube. So glue some scraps together, play with the glue- take them apart and reposition them (while uncured), then I encourage you to try to reverse a joint, break a joint apart etc.
Adam
I use hot hide glue quite often. I use a Rival hot pot that my wife bought for $17.00. I used her candy thermometer to calibrate and mark the dial when the water in the pot was 140 degrees. I put six ounces, by weight, of water and six ounces, by weight, of glue in a home canning jar. I allow it to sit overnight, then put it into the pot with water and plug the pot in, as the glue heats it becomes liquid, I use a popsicle stick to stir it and when it is hot I add water until it just runs off the stick in a smooth but thick stream. I aim for the consistency of heavy maple syrup. The only thing that goes into the hot pot is water, the glue is in the home canning jar and if any is left over I put it into the frig until I need to heat it again.
Here is a website you might find helpful: http://www.deller.com/newpage8.htm
If you want to buy your glue already mixed then: http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluepage.htm
If you do a search on Google you'll find lots of info on uses and prep for hide glue, that is where I got the idea for the hop pot! This is where I learned about the hot pot: http://www.spurlocktools.com/id57.htm
Edited 12/18/2007 10:49 pm ET by BilWil
Although I guess you're probably interested in hot hide glue for the way it sets as it cools, it may be of interest to know that in a recent article in FWW #192 How Strong is your Glue, they declare that liquid hide glue is as strong as hot hide glue.
I think with some experimentation you could regulate the temperature using a double boiler, especially if you're using an electric stove. This implies however that you're doing your gluing in the kitchen which would never fly at my house. Anyway, a reasonably accurate thermometer can provide guidance. I have this one.
(http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Precision-Instant-Pocket-Thermometer/dp/B000N3NQAU/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1198067819&sr=8-2)
It's cheap and it works. Test it in ice water and boiling water to validate it's accuracy.
I'm curious about the project and reasons for using hide glue. It's always interesting to me to learn from what others are doing.
Well Quickstep, I am in the middle of building a Federal Card Table, and I am about to install the veneer around the skirt.
I want to thank you and all the others who replied to my thread.
Jack
sparky,
I am not one of the great woodworkers -- only a hobbyist. But I find that the liquid hide glue that comes in a plastic squeeze container works fine. No muss, no fuss. I like things to be simple and actually work. This stuff fits the bill for me.
My guess is that I will get flamed on this suggestion, but what the heck. Almost forty years of living with my wife has prepared me for the onslaught to come.
Enjoy.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi 9619 I do hope your wife does not read this forum, that was not a nice think to say about the woman you have lived with for 40 years. My wife and I have been to-gether for 55 years now, we net on Dec. 9, 1949 .
She is very sick she has myelodysplasia ( MDS ) for short. it is a disorder of the bone marrow so she sleeps a lot. The Dr. Cancer clinic told the both of us back in may of 2005 that she had 3 week, 3 months or at the very most a year to live, so I thank GOD she is still with me.
Jack
Jack,
I am very sorry to hear about your wife. She is very lucky to have you. Every minute is precious. I know you are helping her live life to the fullest that is possible. I am glad the doctors were wrong. That is why we say that doctors "practice medicine". When they learn how to do it right, then they will "do medicine". I was only kidding about my wife. We met in 1968, married a few months later, have had and raised three kids who are now educated and married and off on their own. I love my wife dearly, and I treat her very well. She has done some shaping of my behavior over the years, and it surely was a good thing. We kid each other, but lightly. No meanness ever. She does speak her mind. If I say something she disagrees with, she says her thing, and we move on. That is what I was saying would happen here. I made a statement about liquid hide glue that the real old-time woodworkers (the purists) will probably disagree strongly with, and I am ready for their comments. That is all I meant, no more, no less. Life serves up some challenges. In this past year, my wife was injured badly in a gym, while riding a stationary bicycle in an exercise class. The crank broke and sliced her leg down to the bone and about 7 inches long. It got infected, and there was a danger that she would lose her leg. Luckily the operated and were able to remove the infection and do a skin graft. It was a scare. It did make me realize how much she means to me. I see you are from Canada. My oldest son married a girl from north of Toronto. I guess that makes me "part-Canadian". I also saw from your profile that you enjoy FWW Knots. Me too. It is good to meet you. Please tell your wife that you met a guy from Virginia who sends his regards, his best wishes, and a hearty Merry Christmas. Next year, you and I will exchange the same wishs, God willing. And more after that. Have a Cool Yule and a Frantic First.
Your Virginia woodworking compatriot,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello 9619 ( Mel ) I see that you are from Virginia, you said in your last post that your son, married a girl from north of Toronto, so that made you half Canadian. Well we have something in common. Your see one of my son's married an American girl, so that must make me half American, They live in Lancaster South Caroline, and I will be taking a trip down to see them in march of 2008. Small world is it not.
Jack
Jack,
It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Us folks who are partially Canadian and partially United Statesian are a close knit breed. When you head down to see your offspring in SC, you may well drive by Washington, DC. My wife and I live in Burke, Virginia which is near Springfield, Virginia, which is just south of Washington, DC. I hope you will stop by, if only for a snack and a quick break. If there is a possibility you will be by, just send me a message to my email, and I'll send you all of my contact information. Enjoy, and thanks for writing.
Mel
PS I am a long time hobbyist woodworker who is 64 and about to retire from 28 years with NASA, on Jan 3. My wife is an avid quilter. We have three grown kids are educated, married and have jobs. Aint that great? One is in California, One is Florida, and one just past Baltimore (not far away).Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
As you know there is a definite shelf life to hide glue since it is made from animal material. It will lose its ability to bond when sitting on the shelf. I found that the stuff in the bottle comes dated for the end of life. Be careful to check the stuff on the shelf when you buy it. I found that the warehouse is supplying my local hardware store with lots that were dated as far back as 2004 and they were not aware of the problem.
Herr Professor Herzig,I have an old bottle of liquid hide glue which is a few years out of date. A few weeks ago, I put some between two boards and clamped them. The glue dried well.Should I be worried? How can you tell if the glue is not any "good" any more?Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What are you trying to do; ruin a perfectly sound and logical theory with data? Don't confuse me with the facts, since my mind is made up. >:). I assume if it works then it works. Perhaps the best test is to try a test piece before committing to a major glue-up.
"Perhaps the best test is to try a test piece before committing to a major glue-up"You are a very reasonable guy.There is a saying "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is." I am not sure who said it. I am fairly sure it was neither of my grandmothers. Possibly it was Yogi Berra, who also said, "When you get to the fork in the road, take it."Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
My question about the liquid hide glue is its reversibility not its strength. Does anyone know whether you can heat it with an iron and melt it, to reposition a piece of veneer which has slid in the press or under a clamp? Can you repair a bubble as easily as with hide glue that was originally of the hot variety? Thanks.
Jay
Jay,
I have used hide glue for chairs and table legs, but never for veneer, so I don't have the experience to give you a good answer. To loosen up old hide glue in a chair mortice and tenon, just add hot water or some say, hot vinegar for a while, and it loosens up. But all of the glue is in a very confined space. With veneer, it is spread out everywhere. I suppose the theory is the same. I don't think the hot iron alone will do it. If you learn anything, please post it. I want to learn too.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
From my experience with hot hide glue and hammer veneering it is easy to heat the veneer with a clothing iron (gently) and the glue will liquify through the veneer. It is easiest if the veneer has been freshly applied, and if you recognize a mistake, or a bubble. You can do a small section at a time and lift it off, if need be. If the glue has been there for a long time it is more difficult, and you have to steam it a bit by putting a moist washcloth or towel over the veneer and ironing through it. The iron will get gummed up so don't expect your wife to be happy unless you have already bought her a new one and you plan on inheriting hers!
You can also iron down the veneer in the first place by applying the glue ot both surfaces and allowing it to dry, then placing the veneer down on the substrate and ironing. This re-activates the glue and the pressure bonds it down. This actually works well with yellow glue, but once you do this you will not be able to move the veneer at all. There are seveeral FWW articles on this. I jut don't know how the pre-liquified stuff behaves.
Jay
Jay,
It is good to hear this wisdom from someone who knows. It was someone else who asked the question, but I am very happy to get the info. My guess is that he will read it too.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
JayS
Get this in your survival pack. You can heat yellow glue with an iron and reset a veneer bubble. You can iron down a sheet of veneer using yellow glue if you would like to try that. It works and it works well. Recently I ironed down an 18" x 36" sheet of veneer with yellow glue on both surfaces. Suce$$.
I don't care for the hide glue in the bottle but its only because I grew up using hot hide and watching my dog go crazy when I cooked it up. My old German mentor despised the hide in a bottle as much as he despised Budweiser in a bottle. Hide glue has some great characteristics and once you get used to it, you might like it. I love the reversibiliy of the glue and not needing to clean out the mortise to make a repair. I think repairable glues will be much appreciated on the pieces we leave behind. In that spirit, I mark all my furniture with instructions when I use the hide glue for the next repair. Who knows?? On glue pots and the science of 140?? Jury is out. At CW they go by feel. No temp gages in the shop. So it can be done without the high tech double boiler if you want to give it a try and play with it a bit. If you really like the hot glue, the temp controls can make things easier if you are very busy and get side tracked.
good luck
dan
He's had 12 years to work it out, he's either all set or retired by now.
Forget the double boiler. I stopped at a thrift store and came out with a crock pot and a small aluminum pot - for $8. The setup works fine.
There is a video ,I believe from FWW,of the expert who manufactures the hard and liquid version.I dont have the time to dig it out now but you will learn more than you cared to know about hide glue. Also my friend Mario Rodregus Wrote an article in FWW about ironing yellow glue.
Another zombie, walkng the earth...
I used a standard crock pot for a long time, I now have a HoldHeet.
No need for double boiler, a canning jar set directly on water works fine.
I do use Old Brown Glue, but generally not for veneering as you can’t hammer with it and can’t use a vac press.
I don’t refrigerate it, I don’t pay attention to exp dates on any glue. I’ve used OBG and Titebond as much as 2 years past exp date and it still works.
Thats said, heat is the issue I’ve had TB get funky living in 90+°
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