I just did a number of searches on Google to try to find out what the uses are/were for a carriage maker’s rabbet plane. They were Stanley’s #10, 10 1/4 and 10 1/2. I found lots of stuff for sale an stuff that had been sold, but NOTHING on its uses. I did find a reference to it in Hack’s The Handplane book, but it didn’t say much about the uses of the tool, except to say that it was used to cut large rabbets, such as on doors.
There are two references to this plane in Fine Woodworking’s website. Someone had asked what is this tool, and it got a few responses, including an interesting one on the difference between a coachmaker and a carriage maker. VERY INTERESTING. There was a comment on the use of these planes for cutting rabbets for the doors on carriages. Also, there was a refereence to the use of these planes by timber framers to make LARGE RABBETS.
I have a copy of the book, Planecraft, by Hampton and Clifford. They mention using this plane to raise panels. That’s interesting, and it sounds reasonable, as long as the bevel on the panel is as wide (or wider) than the width of the plane’s iron.
Sorry it took so long to get to my question? I did want to show that I did some research before asking on Knots. Do you know of any other uses for the Carriage Maker’s Rabbet Plane. Lie Nielsen makes the 10 1/4 now, but their website doesn’t say anything about uses for the tool. I can’t imagine them making this plane unless there are some serious uses for it. Does anyone know what they are?
Thanks,
Mel
Replies
Aldren Watson is a big fan of the 10 in his book "Handtools their ways and workings." He likes it because it is an extra versatile jack - i.e., can do everything a jack can do, plus rabbet work of various sorts.
I've used mine (sw era Stanley) when doing home improvement sorts of "finish carpentry" jobs where I needed to fashion moldings or various long or wide rabbeted pieces for doors, window frames, trim, and baseboards. It's handy for these sorts of things.
I would imagine the tilting handles and spurs on the 10 1/4 would certainly help on the crossgrain use in raising a panel
Tom,
I will check out your thread and the related photos as soon as I send this. I rarely make large tenons as are found on workbenches and I never make doors for houses which require large rebates, but I do make raised panels, that the 10 1/4 could handle. I was wondering if folks have found even more uses for this plane. I have ordered the book that Samson recommended. I have a lot to learn and am having a great time learning. Nothing like retirement!!!!
Have fun.
Mel
Mel,
I use a 10 1/2 at times to clean up the grips on wooden molding planes. I've made a middle pitch rabbet plane for this and use it often but, at times, the common pitch is better suited for the grain of a particular plane.
Mine is one of the English made planes I bought new in the '70s. I remember all the work of tuning it up and doubt many of Stanley's planes from that era ever worked if the machining of that plane was typical. It took a lot of work to get all the mating surfaces to even come close to matching.
Fortunately, it had an iron that was still US made and didn't have one of the high vanadium content British irons. All the steel I've experienced from Great Britain since somewhere in the 50's or 60's is that soft vanadium steel. The steel from Record, Marples, Sorby and others from that period to current production is pretty lousy. I feel the vanadium steel coming out of Great Britain for the last 60 years or so is the proverbial elephant in the room when woodworkers talk about A-2 steel being good. If anyone thinks that vanadium steel is representative of O-1 or W-1 steel their judgment is badly skewed.
Larry,
Thanks for the reply. I agree on modern English steel. I have used a number of modern English chisels and carving gouges, and they don't seem to hold an edge.
Mel
Mel,
I screwed up there, too broad a brush. Ashley Iles chisels are good steel and have been. While I wish they'd refine the shape of their carving tools more, I think they're the best ones currently on the market. Their new Mark II chisels seem pretty good as well.
Larry:
I couldn't agree with you more regarding the irons in Record planes. I've never been able to get (for me) a satisfactory edge on them. For years I thought it must be the way I sharpen, but I never had problems with the old Stanley irons. I really don't have any issues with A2 steel, but give me a thick O1 iron and I am happy woodworker.
gdblake
GD,
"I really don't have
GD,
"I really don't have any issues with A2 steel, but give me a thick O1 iron and I am happy woodworker."
I have some nice LN planes chisels with A2 steel, and I have some old well-fettled Stanley planes with the original irons. I use both. When I use them, I often think of the Goddards and the Townsends, whose furniture now goes for a million dollars apiece, and the fact that they made their stuff with tools which were poor in comparison to my old Stanleys and new LNs. How come they made masterpieces with inferior tools while I make inferior furniture with superior tools? I believe that the main ingredient in great furniture has little or nothing to do with A2 or O1 steel, but with talent, genius, energy, and adaptability to the tools that are available.
Suppose you could have dinner with either of two groups of people. One group would be the Goddards and the Townsends. The other would be current experts on the minute differences between expensive modern hand tools. Which would you choose?
Mel
"...How come they made
"...How come they made masterpieces with inferior tools while I make inferior furniture with superior tools? ..."
That's simple. They didn't use inferior tools. Their tools were as sophisticated and evolved as their furniture.
Mel:
As Larry said, their tools weren't inferior. I have a set of old no name socket chisels that I picked up at a flea marker cheap. The steel in them is great. Same with some old cast steel plane irons I have. They take a very fine edge and hold it. The old "warranted cast steel" produced really good edge tools. I also have several LN planes, chisels, and saws. I don't have any problems getting a refined edge on the A2 steel, I also have a few Record tools, the #405 multi-plane, #278 rabbit plane, and the #71 router plane. The tools are great, but I can't get as refined of an edge on their irons as I can with my old Stanley planes. Still, I can get them sharp enough to get the job done.
Still, I get your point. I don't have any problem admitting that the craftsmen of old (or for that matter tons of current woodworkers) were far more skilled than I will ever be.
gdblake
GD,
I am happy you took my point in the spirit in which I offered it. Many here are obsessed with the details of tool design. I read a letter that was sent to Philip Marcou by a customer of his. The man said that he had a Holtey and a Marcou, and now he understands the difference. Holtey had polished the underside of the heads of the screws, and Philip had not.
Do you understand where I am coming from? IF one is interested in differences such as thatt, then one is not interested in woodworking. The important factors in developing masterpieces of furniture are:
- Skill in design.
- Skill in tool usage.
(in that order).
We continue to have discussions about the design of dovetail saws. Rob Cosman has developed a $250 dovetail saw with a corian handle and progressive pitch. I'll bet that Ray Pine's dovetails, made with a $10 gent's saw are just as good (or better than) Rob's with his expensive saw. Of course, Cosman can make you a saw which matches the countertops in your kitchen (ha ha ha).
It is easy to lose your way in woodworking and to become obsessed with the details of tool design.
Have fun. It is time for me to go down to the shop and try to develop more skill :-)
Mel
PS Keep posting. Your messages are consistently among the best on Knots.
Mel:
"Of course, Cosman can
Mel:
"Of course, Cosman can make you a saw which matches the countertops in your kitchen (ha ha ha). "
That is one of the funniest lines I have ever read on Knots. You just made my day. I agree with you regarding tools. If I have a tool that I can't get good results with (regardless of how much I paid for it or how well others can use it) the tool is worthless to me and I don't need to own it inspite of how pretty it is or the brag factor of having it.
gdblake
Mel,
I like the idea of a saw handle that matches my kitchen countertop. I'm going out to the shop right now, to find those formica scraps . Of course the saw screws won't work on such a thin handle- do you think contact cement will do the job?
Ray
Hi Mel I have a 10.5 that I picked up at a garage sale, it's great for planing a rabbet that is just a bit small and making it to big and no longer square:)
Troy
Hi Mel
As Troy noted, the #10 (and #10 1/4 and #10 1/2) all may be used for large rebates (rabbets). Principally, the plane was intended for door making, but you can include here as well as window frames and raised panels. It is, essentially, a large rabbet plane.
I really wonder about those who use it for tenons - unless they are Gigantic! - since the plane(s) are too large to manage on furniture-sized tenons.
I recall a rather nice video (DVD?) I saw some years ago of Jim Kingshott (I think it was "Benchplanes") demonstrating the use of his #10 1/2 (I think it was) when building a window frame.
There are many planes that take the place of this one, so it is not essential. A few: badger plane, rebate planes (both skewed and straight), shoulder planes, rabbet block plane, skew rabbet block plane .... (you get the idea).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thanks for responding. I knew about doors and windows. What can you tell me about raising panels? The wide iron and nickers, as in the LN 10 1/4, seem like they'd be good for raising large panels. All of my panel raising has been on a table saw. I read about raising a panel with a carriage makers rabbet plane, but not much detail was given. What other planes, still made today, would be appropriate for panel raising? I have seen photos of old wooden panel raisers. I don't want to go chasing aftere those. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Panel raising is just one topic. I really am interested in getting an education in getting a few books on doing woodwork (furniture making) with hand tools? I have ordered:
- "Hand Tools: Their Ways and Workings" by Aldren A. Watson
- "The Complete Woodworker" by Bernard E. Jones;
Would appreciate any suggestions you have.
Thanks,
Mel
Mel, I think Samson did a great job of using his rabbit block plane to make raised panels in his posts a year ago. I copied that and made some panels the same way, but on a smaller scale with a LV mid size rabbit plane. The 10 is so big it makes my arms hurt thinking about controlling it. Would be best for doors, windows and large system IMO. I will be interested in other books.
Now my issue with working with the old masters would be the language. I can hardly understand Lataxe some days! Ha!!
AZMO
Hi Mel
Sean (Samson) did a great article on frame-and-panel doors that included a raised panel. He used a LN #62 (LA Jack) and a rabbet block plane.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Making%20a%20frame%20and%20panel%20door.html
I shall be writing up the making of raised panels (for the armoire I recently built). I used the LV/Veritas Skew Rabbet planes. I'll let you know when it is done.
Regards from Perth
Derek
AZMO,
I am also hoping we will get some suggestions on books on old ways of building furniture with hand tools. I mentioned two above. Let's see if others show up.
Thanks,
Mel
Mel,
One of the best books ever published was Charles Hayward's Cabinetmaking for Beginners. It's far more than a book for beginners. The problem is that it was "updated" and later versions aren't nearly as good as the earlier editions. Don's copy is from the 50's and it's good. My copy is an updated version from 1983 and doesn't come close to the earlier editions. I took a few minutes before posting this to locate and order a copy of the original 1947 edition. I've intended to do this for some time and a while back posted about the book only to shortly discover all those listed had been sold. I didn't want to repeat that mistake.
Larry,
Thank you for letting me know about the differences in the updates of Charles Hayward's book "Cabinetmaking for Beginners." I will be on the lookout for a reasonably priced edition that is from the 50s or earlier.
I believe that there is a small but growing group of folks on Knots who are genuinely interested in getting more into hand tool work. Of course, everyone does it differently. Some want to use the old tools and the old methods. Derek likes to use Lee Valley tools. I like to find out what tools and techniques were used back then, and try them out if that is practical. My wallet is not all that fat. The collectors drive up the prices of old tools. I did spring for a half set of hollows and rounds, and for a "user" Stanley 45. I have some woodwn planes and some LNs. I am not interested in acquiring any tools that I don't use, and am more interested in learning the skills. I do wish that there were more folks in the Northern Virginia area with similar intterests, but it just isn't the case
I really appreciate the time you take to help me and others out in this endeavor. With the four books I have ordered, and the Hayward book, I believe I will have enough to keep me occupied
Enjoy,
Mel
I think these planes are great for making raised panels with hand tools.
I think it is much easier to use a marking knife than the nickers, though. Much easier to control the area where the fillet meets the corner.
Your mileage may vary, but try it and see.
Ed,
I have been marking with a knife and then using a plane with a nicker, and I find it works better than the nicker alone, especially the old planes like the Stanldy 45 and Stanldy 78. The nickers in those are not adjustable for depth. They are either "on" or "off". If they are on, then they are very high. Patrick Leach said that some folks file them down a bit, but then you don't get the mileage out of them.
SO, somewhere I learned about cutting a line first. It works nicely. Glad to hear you have had luck with that too.
Thanks for responding. I am glad to see so many people who are really using hand tools and who are willing to share their experiences. I've got a long way to go.
Do you have a favorite book or two on how to use hand tool in the older ways?
Mel
Good grief, the topic notification feature actually works!
I've never been a learn-woodworking-by-books guy, Mel, or a worry-about-what-famous-woodworker said-what kind of guy - I prefer to just mess around with a hand tool and sort of figure out how it works. The really good tools will teach you themselves.
That said, I guess the Audel's Carpenter's books, the hand tool articles in the first fifty or one hundred issues of FWW (when they had a real strong editorial staff imo), "Planecraft," and Ian Kirby's book on dovetails got me started. A lot of common sense stuff that my Dad taught me influenced me (i.e. "The flat part of the bevel should normally be twice the thickness of the iron - more than that and you're into paring or shaving country, less than that and you're into chopping or chipping territory", and at one time I planned on attending a boatbuilding school in British Columbia as soon as I could retire from the Navy, so their list of required tools really influenced all of the first hand tools that I bought. Bob Key's hand tool website influenced me a lot back in the early days of the World WIde Web.
And I usually paid some degree of attention on "knots" whenever folks like Ray Pine, Larry WIlliams, Jon Arno, or Lee Grindinger had something to say. Folks that obviously knew what they were doing and weren't just trying to hype or shill tools.
But basically I believe in being a hand tool autodidact as much as possible. "Try it and work with it until you figure it out," is my motto. I like what someone who was giving advice about wood carving said: "Use whatever tools you need to, to take away all the wood that's not supposed to be there."
I'm building a dedicated hand tool shop here in Montana this spring and summer. Will post photos later. Take care, EH
Ed,
Self learning is a great way to go.
By the way, I will be in Montana, at Big Sky from Mar 4 to 13 or thereabouts for an Aerospace Conference. Are you anywhere near there? I guess not. I have been there annually for a number of years, and I haven't seen any towns closeby.
Mel
Colleen and I will be in Mississippi from 2 Mar to 5 April to put the finishing touches on the house down there so we can sell it. Good luck with your trip to Big Sky. It has been an El Niño-influenced winter for Western MT, with light snowpack - doesn't really count as my first MT winter, people tell me.
Laz,
thanks for letting me know about your use of the 10 1/2, and your modification. I have never done timber framing, or large doors and windows, so I don't have the need to deal with large tenons. My guess is that there is nothing as good as your plane for timber framing. I make furniture, one piece at a time. So far, the only use for the carriage makers rabbet plane I have found for me is its use on raising panels. I just ordered a few books which should tell me more.
Knots really is a great place to get information on tools and techniques that you are interested in. I really appreciate your response.
Why not write to Tom Lie Nielsen and tell him about your modification. Maybe he would make and sell your design for a tote, and pay you handsomely for the information. It might be worth writing to him to test the waters.
Have fun and good luck with your timber framing.
Mel
This is an olde thread revived by spam.
Will George,
Obviously, I am a big fan of NASA also. I don't think anyone is thinking of cutting NASA's funding. Obama is just not going to give NASA the money it would take to continue working on a replacement for Shuttle.
NASA was started as a political way to "beat the Russians". Now there is no big political reason for NASA to be given a lot of money. THis has been the case for a long time. Without political motivation, getting big money out of the Government is not possible.
I wish my old friends at NASA the best.
Enjoy,
Mel
Obama is just not going to give NASA the money it would take to continue working on a replacement for Shuttle.
I sure hope so! I just thought of any jobs lost.. But I was 'downsized. a few years ago an is BIG bummer!
I think NASA is the ultimate job, even if boring, for some new child, to want to have! As in they strive to get that JOB!,, As in IT is EVERYTHING to some child that may make that Warp Engine as seen on Star Treck!!
And I thought my 409 Chevy was fast!
I saw a newscast and got upset!
Old thread brought back by spam
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