I’ve finally screwed up the nerve to use my Felder shaper. I have the cutters all ready, the shape I want. Do you use it the way you use a router table? I mean gradual cutting away, or do you hog off everything at one time. It’s a 5 HP shaper, the spindle is 30 mm, the cutters are high speed steel (Amana), and I have a means of feeding with my hands very far away. But I’m not sure of the method. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Replies
You did'nt say what type of profile or size of cutter but for the most part you should be able to make a single pass.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Daryl, I sincerely suggest that you get instruction from a qualified person. A 5 horse shaper is not the sort of machine that you should learn to use by experimenting or by relying on other experience such as routing. Being a bit nervous is appropriate as long as it is accompanied by respect and knowledge, but being fearful is counter-productive-you may not concentrate on the right things....
Once you have been shown the basics and understand how to use this machine safely you can take full advantage of its versatility.
Regarding your question, generally speaking you can do the full cut in one pass, but it also depends upon other factors such as the profile, type of cutter and block and the finish required.
The Felder is a good machine.Philip Marcou
Edited 7/23/2007 9:06 pm by philip
Agree with Philip. I've hand-fed stock through a shaper when the cutter was a router bit. It's just like a router table, only better. But for larger cutters I've always used a power feeder, and, after seeing the amount of wood a big cutter can remove I have no interest in trying to hand feed.
I've had one 'incident' with a shaper. Stock was attached to a jig with screws. Cutter was 2 or 3 inches high. I was sending the whole arrangement through the shaper with the power feed. Something came loose and the cutter began taking larger bites. There was no way I could've held it down by hand but the power feed saved the day.
Ed
I agree with all of the above, I also use a stock feeder and so many guards as to make it nearly impossible for my hands to contact the cutter. I concur with Philip that while a healthy respect is good, operating it while fearful of it is not. Hopefully you have someone nearby who can get you more comfortable with the machine. You'll love it once you get going.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Great advice!! This is no time to be given a new nickname like "Stumpy", or "3 Fingered Joe!"
Jeff
Hi Daryl,
I agree with Philip. Do your homework. At least get a good book on the subject but sometimes there's no substitute for actually watching someone.Give some serious thought to getting a stock feeder. This is one thing you can add to the shaper that will not only make it much safer but more of a pleasure to use. Plus, it will give you a better finish on your profiles by running the material past the cutter at a very constant rate. Be careful.
Paul
Daryl ,
Just to get the feel and feed rate down I would suggest taking partial cuts . Which fence system will you use . I make a sort of zero clearance fence to minimize the width of the throat or opening , so just the part that is cutting protrudes .
As you feel more confident increase the size of your cut and feed rate until you get good results . Even though you probably can cut most profiles in one pass , that will not necessarily give you the finest end results. Sometimes taking a light whisker cut can produce a wonderful profile with less tearout and chipping .
Like the previous posters said , the exact profiles you are using as well as the type of materials may dictate how you proceed , there really is not one way only .
good luck dusty
Edited 7/23/2007 9:58 pm ET by oldusty
Daryl:
I have the Felder 700 series combo. I have used the router spindle a lot and I have the 1 1/4" spindle with the universal cutter head.
There are two pieces of equipment that came with your Felder, the yellow hold down and the aluminum guard, which also holds the work to the fence. Don't even think of doing anything without these two installed. In addition, you might have the additional safety bars that go between the fence and provide continuous support for the work as it goes past the cutter head. Felder and Aigner sell various other specialized items to help control the work piece. Go to:
http://www.martin-usa.com/
Many Felder users also use the power feeder.
Depending upon the width of the piece, you might be able to clamp the work to the slider and then standing on the front side of the outrigger table, just gently pull the work through at a steady rate. This has worked well for me, and with the two guards as well as standing at least 3 feet perpendicular to the cutter, you should be safe.
If you have the adjustable speed, make sure that you are at the right rpm for the cutter.
What I try to do is create a tunnel through which the work passes. With the guards in place, it physically impossible for a hand to get near the cutter. Use a push stick and stand perpendicular to the path of the work.
Finally, if a little alarm goes of in your head, stop and think. Do not feel under any pressure to complete the task and take your time.
I also find that a couple of beers helps to settle me down before I start.
OK, I'm kidding about the beers!
Good luck,
Hastings
PS Are you a member of the Felder Owner's Group?
In essence, the shaper is similar to a router table. Usually, the knives are larger and the whole mass of the spindle and cutters makes a powerful sound. That alone makes many weak in the knees. There is no doubt this is a serious cutting machine, but just about everything in the shop is. The basic safety rules apply and none of these should ever be taken lightly.
Unplug the machine while changing cutters and setting up. NEVER TRUST A SWITCH
Wear proper clothing, shoes, remove watches, rings, jewelry, role up sleeves, watch out for anything that could possibly get caught in a rotating cutter. Strings in sweatshirt hoods, for example.
Make sure the work area is clear of debris. Nothing is going to fall off a table or your feet aren't going to slip on saw dust.
Wear the proper personal protective equipment. Hearing protection, lung protection and eye protection. I highly recommend wearing both, safety glasses and a full face shield. Face shields are not intended to stand up to the same impact that safety glasses are. Wear both.
Make sure the shaper cutters are set in the correct direction for the rotation of the spindle. Many shapers are reversible but you should start learning feeding left to right, against the rotation of the cutters. NEVER BACK UP OR FEED WITH THE ROTATION (climb cutting).
Make sure you have the correct fitting insert collar in the table. It should fit close enough to the cutters to prevent anything slipping in the opening. Obviously, you don't want the cutters to hit the insert or it will fly. Check it by moving the spindle by hand.
Adjust the fences so they are as close to the cutters as possible. You don't want any gap ahead of, or after, the cutters. Check that all attachments are secure. Make sure the fences are in line with each other in a straight plane. The outfeed fence may get moved toward the operator in some specialized cuts, like a jointer. It still has to be in line (parallel) with the infeed fence.
The area within 4" all around the cutters is a no go zone. Never put your hands in this area.
Always use the dust chute even if you don't have a collector. This will at least direct the debris away.
Set up the cutters so they are below the stock whenever possible.
USE THE SPINDLE GUARD.
Always use the hold downs, use a stock feeder or set up feather boards.
Have an appropriate push stick or two within easy reach.
Be careful with rub collars. If they are used with the fences and the work can contact both the fence and the collar, it can cause loss of control. You may have felt this on a router table but the shaper is 100 times more susceptible.
Take as light a cut as you want and make as many passes as you feel are necessary. In time you will know your cutters and how much is safe to take off in a single pass. There is never any sense in hogging off too much both for safety reasons and cut quality.
Never have yourself positioned behind the work piece, in the kickback zone. Position yourself or step along so you aren't leaning out and over the machine. You don't want to fall if something slips.
Always try to work with the predominant direction of the grain.
Double check that everything is secure, height adjustment is locked, fences are firm, hold downs are not going to restrict your movement, spindle is turning in the right direction.
When shaping irregular shapes, you use a starting pin and a rub collar/bearing. Having the work attached to a template that rides on the rub collar is a good idea when possible. Rub collar on the top when possible. Never try to work a piece that can slip in between the cutter and the pin. This operation takes some practice, especially starting the cut. The position of the starting pin is important and can change with the work requirements. Straight fences are not used with this method. You can make shaped fences when the work requires it. These are often preferable to using a starting pin
If you have to do stop cuts, DON"T BACK UP. Shut off the power and wait. If you pull out, be very careful the work doesn't tip or advance. If you do a drop on cut, ALWAYS USE A STOP BLOCK at the rear, same at the other end.
When shaping end grain, always use the miter bar, sled or sizable backing block. If the piece is narrow enough that it can get sucked into the cutters. make sure you have it clamped or fixed in a jig.
NEVER SHAPE FREEHAND
Provide support for long work pieces like you would with the table saw. Roller stands are marginally effective. They can tip over, not line up properly and cause the work to be directed in ways you don't want.
There isn't any need to be nervous around the shaper. Just give it the same respect you would give anything that can rip your hand to hamburger bits in a nano second. Plenty of woodworking machines can do that. The shaper just howls a lot louder. Take command, no squinty face or apprehensive stance. Go slow and take a light cut until you are comfortable.
Use your woodworkers common sense. Don't try to shape small pieces. Don't shape pieces that have defects. Take the time to make fences, push sticks or any other accessory that will aid in using the machine. Don't ever forget the basic safety rules. If something tells you it's questionable, believe in your intuition. It sure would be nice to go have an expert show you everything but finding one is very difficult. I used to train teachers that were supposed to be experts and most didn't know very much. You need to find a shaper operator that does it all day in a factory and they may not be able to communicate all that they have learned. Look for safety guides. Read the owners manual. Look for books and articles. I have a couple of interesting pages but I'll put them in another post so this page doesn't run on.
None of us are correct 100% of the time. I'm sure I have left something out. Have an emergency plan, who are you going to call, where is the phone. Have a first aid kit you can easily reach. A zip lock bag with clean rag type bandages is more useful than a bunch of bandaids and gauze all rolled up in a hard to open package. You will like the shaper. It can do some great work, don't forget the basics because these are what will get you.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
It can be safe to climb cut with a stock feeder, I do it 300 times in an 8 hour day. It's not something I would like to do freehand or even with a push stick.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
dgreen, you may be giving advice to a novice. Chances that they have a $1000 feeder and extensive experience are slim. I'd hate to see someone raising a panel or making another heavy cut while feeding with the rotation. Special operations require special set ups and they can still be dangerous.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks for all of the advice. I have several hold downs I've gotten from Felder (Martin makes one of them), and I intend to use them. One is a downward pressure module, another is a side one, that is a more power version of a featherboard (except it does not prevent kickback). Both of them make sort of a poor man's power feeder. I do intend to make all sorts of test cuts and practice. I've used the shaper for pattern routing with straight cuts, but this is the first complex profile (it's a 2" high deep ogee). I don't want to be called stumpy either.
Here's a couple of links. I'll have to learn how to resize them on a Mac, someday! The one on the lawsuit is very informative, regarding shapers.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/safety.html
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9837
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:IBlMPru0w8AJ:www.wallacejordan.com/decisions/Opinions2002/1011128.pdf+guidelines+for+safe+operation+of+wood+shapers&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us&client=safari
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Daryl
For general safety you might like to take a look at the British Health & Safety Exec. Site (our equivalent of OSHA) where there is an excellent free sheet on spindle moulder (shaper) use:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis18.pdf
which includes information on guarding for hand feeding, etc. When I'm teaching the use of the spindle I always refer trainees to this page
Scrit
Thank you. This info sheet is a great resource. Thank you all.
This is all very good advice. Operating a shaper is one of the least talked-about operations on this forum. Probably because the machine is not used (by amateurs - I include myself squarely in that category) anywhere near as much as a table saw, or other ww equipment. It's really an unknown machine in most workshops.
I am awaiting delivery of my Hammer equipment. I had the chance to practice quite a bit with some "loaned" Felder equipment. I can tell you, the shaper (any shaper) is one impressive machine. It is NOT a router. The sound of the mass of rotating cutter head WILL get your attention. While it IS capable of taking prodigious amounts of wood away with one pass through the machine, the amount of power required to drive the work through, and hold it against the fence for that kind of operation is also impressive. A power feeder is not an exotic piece of equipment when this kind of operation is being considered.
However, it is NOT necessary to take large bites with the shaper. There is nothing that says you can't make many passes, taking small bites each time to keep the operation "small scale." Yes, you CAN use manual feed with small bites, but try to always plan the operation to include fastening the work to the slider. Avoid pushing the work directly with your hands at all costs.
Try to arrange a visit to a professional milling operation and observe the shaper being used before you try to do your first work with it.
My sole use of the shaper at this point is to hold 3 stacked "slitting" blades to simultaneously prepare three, 1/8" slots, 1/2" deep for splines in the corners of picture frames. Such cutting is trivial compared to what the shaper can do. I doubt that I'll ever do much "bigger" work. I have seen it take large (single pass) cuts from oak rails to make oogees, glue joints and the like. The simultaneous experiences of MASSIVE amounts of wood removal, yet total control of the process has to be experienced to be appreciated. The forces involved are enormous and will teach anyone respect for the equipment.
Have fun!
Rich
"However, it is NOT necessary to take large bites with the shaper. There is nothing that says you can't make many passes, taking small bites each time to keep the operation 'small scale' "
It's just that if you do you tend to lose all the accuracy and repeatability in a cut.
"Avoid pushing the work directly with your hands at all costs."
Certainly! That's what long push sticks are for (not the stupid designs touted by many people which put your finfgers near the action) and why Euro spindles all come with Shwaw/SUVA guards - an inward and a downward pressure spring pair (see the HSE link above for an example)
With properly sharpened limiter (Euro-style) tooling running at the correct (i.e. the highest permitted for the tool) rotation speed the amount of effort to push through is no more than doin a 3in rip in hardwood. If the machine labours then slow the feed rate.
Scrit
Hi Daryl,
What can I say
When you do not know how to use a shaper, Do not use it!
I am a chair and fine furniture maker and have still all my fingers after more than 40 years using my shaper and other machines a lot.
When u have no experience with shapers I can only add, see you in the casualty ward shortly.
Do get educated on this machine first before using, I have seen 4 accidents and they where not pritty .
Maybe this helps Bernhard.
Hey Daryl,
Congrats on the purchase of a Felder shaper, which I would guess is part of your combination machine.
The only comment that I would like to make in addition to some of the great advise you have gotten so far, is I believe Phil Lowe produced a video that is marketed by WMH (of Jet, Powermatic fame) on techniques for using a shaper, might be a useful purchase for $21.
Good luck
Daryl & bob,
I have no experience of shapers so I hope you will forgive my intrusion into this thread. Bob's mention of a how-to video from Mr Lowe prompts me to ask whether a difficult machine like a shaper (or for that matter a planer, TS or any such potential finger-eater) should come with at least an instructional video and preferably a short course on safe use?
When I bought a Lee Valley router table (a mini-shaper) there was a very good video given as part of the purchase. This showed plenty of good how-to, including a lot of safety advice and guidance. I believe they will sell you one for around $5 (to cover costs) should you want to see it before a purchase. Similarly with the Woodrat. This seemed a good sales model to me and you have to wonder why other companies who sell finger-eaters don't do the same.
I think I did read that Felder and others have a "new purchaser" course; but they cost a lot to attend, unless there is one of those deals where a day's demo is thrown in. Also, they tend to be 300 miles away, on a particular date only.
What do others think? Should these machines come with a mandatory instruction package that at least covers safety? If so, is a booklet good enough; a video; or should it be a demonstration or course?
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I don't own a shaper, would love to at some time in future, but the stories that have heard have made me shy away from such a purchase, as I really like to continue to count to 10, without resorting to having use my feet to do so.
I mentioned the Lowe video as a way to maybe alert one to the dangers (if they are not obvious) of improperly using the machine, if one could not find a experienced shaper user locally. For $25 how wrong could you go?
I personally watched the video at a local woodworking store (Woodcraft) and from the limited time I watched the video it seemed quite useful, obvoiusly not quite the same experience as someone personally showing the finer points of the machine, but much better than no instruction at all.
I think it would be a great idea for such a video to be distributed with the machine or any machine... I am sure the liability lawyers will chime in why is is a really bad idea..
Edited 7/25/2007 9:25 pm ET by BOBABEUI
Lataxe:"I think I did read that Felder and others have a "new purchaser" course; but they cost a lot to attend"You are indeed correct. Felder have an arrangement with Kelley Mehler in Berea Kentucky for a weekend familiarization course. Basically you get to make a framed panel, using all of the Felder equipment. The cost was only $120 but that doesn't include transport and lodging.The manual that came with my Felder was almost totally useless. Felder owners know that they have to buy David Best's "Unofficial Survivors Guide" for $90. In addition there is the Felder Owners Group (FOG), which is just like knots. For example, I had no idea how to calibrate the power drive for the planer table and the instructions were opaque. One of the FOG members wrote a two-page procedure and posted it to the files part of the forum.It seems almost axiomatic that with all woodworking machines, of whatever ilk and nationality, the manual isn't worth a damn.Hastings
Hastings, I used to contribute regularly to the Felder Users Group, but time limited what I could do for a while. You are right, David Best's handbook, which I have, is worth any price. Felder's manuals are right up there with Festool's for downright useless. Maybe it's an IQ test. Grizzly's manuals were a joke about 12 years ago, when they copied Delta's manuals with the Grizzly name on it (sometimes they forgot to white our the Delta--back when Delta was worth copying that is). However, the worst manual of all time is easily Inca's 10" jointer.I had one, gotten from Garrett Wade (back when they were as great as Delta--sigh). It was either in Romanche or German, but it was manufactured in France, and so the manual went from German to French. Then it was shipped here, and so the German to French to English manual was born. Or hatched. But should never have been. It was so bad, Garrett Wade felt compelled to include their own manual-which was up there with the old Grizzly ones. It was also set wrong, with no way to make it right. So I started to invoke GW's no questions asked return policy when they sent someone out to me (I live on Long Island, near their NY office). He set it up, and showed me what the manual was missing. Everything on it was counterintuitive to what mechanical common sense said, especially this rather silly, thin, moebius strip drive belt.Anyway, thank you everyone for your posts on using my shaper. Before I use it, I will get checked out on its use--we have several members of my club who have one.
Hi Latexe
This is one of the dilemmas of amateur woodworkers purtchasing what is, or at least was, professional equipment. As a trained wood machinist I was taught at college how to handle this equipment safely and get the maximum out of it. Unfortunately a book or video cannot teach all of that because you need to have the "full package" - you need to have an understanding of cutting action, effects of different set-ups on different timbers, knowledge of the timbers themselves, a working knowledge of jig-making and safety procedures (especially if you are going to do ring fence work). Whilst some of that can be taught in a book or a video I feel that most users would benefit from a hands-on training session. There's nothing difficult about it, although the spindle moulder (shaper) is not just a big router table and it's also not as simple to understand as a circular saw. It also takes a lot longer than a day to teach it all - I know because I teach spindle mpoulder usage to others myself and that's why I refer people to the British HSE website and then suggest they buy a good book - the best I know of is:
"The Spindle Moulder Handbook" by Eric Stephenson publ. Stobart-Davies
ISBN-10: 0854420312 or ISBN-13: 978-0854420315
Which whilst it is slightly out of date in terms of current European legislation is still the best publication of it's type. But then Stephenson was once the chief designer at Thomas Robinson in Rochdale and has lectured on the principles of wood machining all over the world
When I'm buying a new spindle, though, I'd be peeved if the vendor insisted I had to pay for either a video or a training course - on the other hand I can see the need for amateur woodworkers who've never used such kit taking some form of hands-on training.
The difference between a router in a table and a pin router is like the difference between a Honda step-through motor scooter and a 350cc Yamaha - in comparison a spindle moulder can be more like a Honda Goldwing......
Scrit
Who's still got all ten.......
Edited 7/25/2007 7:19 pm by Scrit
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