using a shaper in place of a router table
hardgrunt
| Posted in General Discussion on
iwas looking for a shaper,one of the few,the very few left in brooklyn, adviced steel city #48120. the catalog states “includes 3/4 & 1 inch spindles and 1/4 & 1/2 ROUTER collet standard “. steel city said the shaper can be used as a router table. the only reference i was able to find was finewoodworking #66 page 16, there is an equation i really dont understand as to the rate of feed due to the difference in speed between the shaper and the router. comments please. thank you GRUNT
Replies
A router without variable speed usually operates between 22,000 to 25,000 rpm most shapers such as mine has a top speed of 10,000 rpm, which is too slow for small router bits to get a good finish. On the other hand the shaper can handle larger cutters and can handle bigger cuts and increased hight of cutters. I use the router more often than the shaper but when I have to make raised panels I prefer the shaper. Both have a define use but if you only had to pick one a variable speed heavy duty router would be my choice
Agree with Mr. Bird... unless you have a production shop turning out a lot of raised panel work I also believe you would be better served with a large HP router. You can slow it down with variable speed to turn the large bits but you can't speed up the shaper to turn the smaller bits which you will likely use much more often in a small non production shop.
Good luck...
no sarge i dont intend to run a projection shop and again the speed issue raises its ugly head.i have a 3 1/2 hp router i guess when i see prices of several hundred dollars for a "really good table " i question the real value of one. i guess i"ll buy the shaper and try my hand at building my own table. grunt6
point taken, i was however thinking by adjusting the feed rate, a 10k rpm difference, the speed differential could be compensated for. it would seem that larger and larger bits are being sold as router bits, when they should be shaper bits for safety. pat warner mentions this on his tape. it seems that there is a great deal talked about the stability and "sag " on many router tables these problems using a shaper at least for the larger4 bits. THANK YOU FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. GRUNT
Grunt,
It's not just a matter
Grunt,
It's not just a matter of feed rate and RPM's. Because shaper cutters are huge in comparison to router bits, they have a much lower angle of attack when cutting into the wood.
I have to add that I run a commercial shop, and I've got a router table that sits in a corner collecting cobwebs. It hasn't been used for years because I can do everything I need better, safer, and faster with the shaper. If I needed to do some quirky little job I guess the router table might be useful. Routers get used hand-held all the time, but the shaper wins hands down for making joints, raising panels, creating moldings.
RING, I think i will purchase a shaper if for no other reason than your comment about your router table.my father passed away in 1991,his tools were'" sent to the wind " along with his hand written books of notes on use, procedure, set ups,designs etc. so its been almost 20 years since i been in a shop with a master woodworker. i'm know in the process of settin up a shop ( 10'x 28' foot shop) his comments about the shaper ( he had routers as well )was that each cut was diffent and you had to "feel the cut " when using the shaper. he had many size cutters and routers bits as well. his comment was any bit 2 " or above did not belong in a router. as to what can be cut and how with what tool the comments were " i didn't know you could do that ". his comment about woodworkers was " there's what you know.what you think you know,and reality " i'm going to give the larger router bits a go in the shaper and see the results.i'm now dependant on tapes, books and the web. ican't tell you how much i appreaciate your time to reply to my question. THANK YOU GRUNT
I've owned many different
I've owned many different sizes and brands of shapers and many different types of routers. I've never used a router bit with a shaper. it might be too slow unless the shaper speed is adjustable.
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I think of the router of more as a hobby tool for light work. A shaper is capable of doing some serious production work if it is properly put together. So as not to limit yourself too much, I would recommend at least 3 hp and at least 1" arbor (although cutters get more expensive as arbor size increases). I would not get a shaper if I could not get an adequate power feeder to go with it. Now your ready to do large raised panels, cope and stile sash, all kinds of molding shapes. With the power feeder you can feed reverse chine in figured wood with no chip out (be careful with this). Shapers are fun tools and with a feeder they make your work much safer and less fatiguing.
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I think the spindle is the most important part of a shaper and it must be very heavy duty and vibration free and is why I don't trust interchangable spindles. If you are going to stuff 8/4" hardwood into a powerful shaper you want to be comfortable that it is not going to come apart on you.
Dbuffin the shaper i'm
Dbuffin the shaper i'm looking at is the steel city model 48120 ( the comments about router bits started my question in the first place )is 3 hp and has a 1 " spindel as well as adapters for smaller bits. they offer 3 different feeders as well i guess the middle is a ihp 4 speed would do for my small non production shop. if you know of anyone who has a steel city shaper i would like thier comments.better yet to find some other woodbutchers in brooklyn. THANK YOU GRUNT
Hi Grunt
Both are very useful for the right application. The important thing to remember is the peripheral speed of the cutting tool, ie feet per minute, not RPM. This is why it is better to buy a cutter block 3" in dia and what ever shaped blades you require. It seems to be much more effortless than trying to push stock through a router table. On the other hand, for smaller work the table is ideal. I seem to use both equally as much, horses for courses. The shaper gives a beautiful cut with the cutter block and HSS tooling and a bonus is the ease with which you can sharpen the tooling, just a quick rub on a diamond stone. A power feeder is a great addition if you can afford one too.
wot
WOTNOW i'm begining to think
WOTNOW i'm begining to think that the speed issue puts a lot of people off and not many have even considered giving this a shot. just the memory of what my pop did with tools that no one ever considered, makes me want to give router bits a shot i'll start with the large size and work my way down. THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS GRUNT
I'm not exactly sure what the
I'm not exactly sure what the question is or if I have the right answer. Router bits being smaller in diameter than shaper cutters would require a higher rotation speed to achieve an equal cutting tip speed. The feed rate on a shaper would be a balance between bogging down the motor (too fast) and burning the wood (too slow). With a three horse shaper some of the larger cutters require two progressively deeper passes in order to hog off the material at the proper speed. Hope that helps.
One more thing and ditto what Ring said.
I've used store bought router tables and ones that I've made. I much prefer the home made versions. I make my own fences and feather boards also, they are better.
I agree, the speed issue isn't as big as some think. I had a router table for years, then I got a Delta HD shaper. the only time I've used the router table since was a job that I knew would be messy so I ran it outside. The shaper has a big, solid table and it's much quieter than a router.
My shaper runs at 10,000 RPM and I've run router bits down to a 3/16" roundover about 3/4" in diameter without problem. I may have to feed slower but they work. Big router bits are happy at that speed which is why many large routers have speed control.
hi pete i've been out of the
hi pete i've been out of the country for the last 8 days and haven't been able to log in to the site. thank you for the comment vis a ve the speed issue,kudos to my pop,stability and flatness being an issue with router tables, why should i not give a shaper a shot ! i have a shop that is 10x 28 ' so space is an issue, as well as pops voice in the back of my head to buy the best you can afford you wont regreat it.my typing skills are not the best so please pardon the pitiful writing.i'm building from scratch so i will gratefully take any advice i can get. as to my previous comments woodworkers are few and far between in brooklyn these days so i am dependant on outside sources for help. i would appreciate any comments or advice as to steel city shapers or recommendations to other brands. thank yoe grunt
Grunt,
The advice given so far is very good in describing the differences between shapers and routers. But it's really hard to convey the vast differences between these two pieces of equipment without hands-on experience.
I think it would be safe to say that there isn't a woodworker who hasn't used a router. And the use of the things has become so commonplace that they are almost a cliche: "No! you can't use your router to do every conceivable task for every job!"
On the other hand VERY few woodworkers, and even fewer "hobbyists" have shapers. So knowledge about using them is not very wide-spread.
A shaper is NOT just a "larger router." It is an ENTIRELY different experience. The least powerful shaper is enormously powerful compared to the biggest router you can buy. And MUCH more quiet. Router horsepower ratings are a joke. Router motors are universal types, shapers use induction motors just like table saws and jointers. A shaper rated at 3 hp or 5 hp, develops that rated power UNDER LOAD and maintains its speed. A router rated at 3 hp MAY develop that power for an instant without a load, but is able to deliver only a fraction of that inflated rating when loaded by the cutting bit and the chore of biting into wood.
Shaper heads are massive and come in a wide variety of "tooling" configurations. There are dedicated heads that do one kind of task and universal heads that accept inserts allowing an almost infinite number of profile choices, including custom ones.
Because a shaper is so powerful, and capable of so much material removal in a single pass, it can be a very dangerous thing to operate. It CAN be hand fed with lighter cuts, but there are many workers who consider it a machine for which only power feeding is appropriate.
Everything about the shaper's construction is more robust. Settings are consequently more positive and exact. The most robust router table is flimsy compared to a shaper and that limitation, combined with the small size of the router spindle gives rise to inaccuracies (flexing of the machine and fence) during the cut.
The shaper CAN'T do some things at which the router excels. I don't like cutting rabbets on a table saw, even though my machine has a superb dado head. The router does dado cuts beautifully. You can't pass the work over a shaper head to do that.
Because the shaper is SUCH a different animal, I think it's a good idea to get some training at a shop that operates shapers before you plunge in with one. Or at the least, get some reading material before you go ahead with one. This advice almost never applies to other pieces of equipment in the typical wood working shop,
One last thing - something hardly ever discussed when shapers come up: Most, if not all shapers have the ability to tilt their spindles to the plane of the table. This capability vastly increases the number of shapes that can be cut with any particular knife profile or with a combination of profiles. Most shapers available in the US have the capability to tilt their spindles FOREWARD. However, many European machines tilt their spindles REARWARD (some provide dual capability). I can't describe the cutting geometry here, but a rearward tilting spindle (and cutter) is more versatile and MUCH safer than a forward tilting machine. Briefly, the forward tilt greatly limits the vertical movement possible and the forward tilting cutter can trap the work against the table, causing violent kickback. These problems do not happen if the spindle tilts rearward.
If you request a catalog from Felder-Hammer there is very good discussion and illustration of the geometry of forward and rearward tilting shapers for both the Felder machines and the lower-priced Hammer line.
Good luck,
Rich
Rich ,
Respectfully your post contained some
info that may be misinterpreted by some and may lack factual reasoning .
Most shapers do not have the ability to tilt the spindle , a few do but most do not .
I have 5 shapers set up currently and I only use the power feed on one of them forcertain operations , mostly moldings and such .For rail ends and stile cuts and stop cuts I feed by hand.
To say very few wood workers have shapers so there is little knowledge about using them is a completely unfounded statement .
I don't want the OP or any other that may be interested in buying a shaper to be scared off by any misinformation .
Also we all know injuries can happen on any machine or tool ,I'll be willing to wager there are more injuries inflicted from routers then shapers .Many a finger tip have been routed and nicked or worse .My worse came from a dull chisel.
regards , dusty
Dusty,
I had no intention of misleading . . .
If most shapers do not have tilting ability, OK. I only meant to point to the differences between rear tilting and forward tilting for those that do. I had little shaper experience until acquiring my Hammer almost 4 years ago. Most of the machines I've seen since then have had tilting capability.
I took no position on power feeding, just some observations about the situation. Like others here, I do recommend it. It's an integral part of a thicknessing planer and once used on a jointer or shaper becomes VERY compelling. It's almost as though machines without it are lacking an important function. Not for everything, but for most of the heavy work. And for the consistency of cut.
Maybe I should have said few participants of this forum have shapers. And compared to the shared experiences and knowledge about almost any other kind of shop machine, information about using the shaper is one of the rarest things you'll find here or any other wood working forum. It's just not a common topic, nor a commonly-used machine for the most part.
The fact that you have 5 such machines is very unusual.
I think you are right that there are more injuries inflicted by routers than by shapers. But I'll wager that the reason for that is the huge number of routers being used compared to the number of shapers and the frequency they get used by people with a very wide variety of training and experience. I think the typical shaper user is someone with much more wood working experience, someone with much more liklihood to have been involved in "professional" shop activities and contact with other knowledgable workers in a shop environment, someone with much more experience with power machinery and someone with more experience with all other aspects of a wood shop prior to using that machine than the "typical" router user.
For the "typical" hobbyist, a shaper is simply not on the radar at all as a desired piece of equipment. But a router is a "must have." And the typical hobbyist begins using a router without much in the way of "training" in the use of power wood working equipment.
All that is just my opinion, based on my own experiences and travels. I don't have "data" to back it up. I only offer it in that way.
Rich
Rich ,
I agree for the
Rich ,
I agree for the most part for a hobby shop with no demand a shaper is overkill and more folks know how to use routers hopefully safely .
All my experience and opinions are coming from a professional basis so I may tend to go big when needed .
As far as shaper knowledge there is imho an awful lot right here on this site and I know another site that consists mainly of pros the opposite of Knots .You need to understand that for a professional cabinet shop to have several shapers is common and pretty much standard equipment like a TS .
After saying that , I need to tell you of the last 5 or 6 jobs I have done I have not fired up a shaper , so there you go for what its worth .
Your thoughts are prolly more in line with the average Knotheads than mine are , it's hard for old dogs to learn new tricks , but it can happen !
regards , dusty,boxmaker
Shapers and Routers
Historically, shapers have long been the tool of choice for - shaping. Well before routers arrived on the scene, shapers and shapermen were the backbone of any shop that went two steps beyond a planing mill. Routers arrived first in professional shops, then crept out to the hobbyists.
Tool manufacturers that wanted to appeal to the masses pushed routers for their low cost and versatility, and sales took off. Whole generations have used routers without ever seeing a shaper, or having any formal instruction in use of said routers. The same tool marketers would love to sell more shapers, but the liability question slows this down. While there are far more router accidents than shaper accidents, the shaper accidents are more serious in the damage done - missing parts. Routers will do some damage, but usually body parts do not vanish as in the rare shaper accident.
A proper shaper, with powerfeeder, is a wonderful thing - safe, powerful, and capable of things with speed and precision unmatched by any screaming little banshee appliances. Routers have their place - but lack of power and precision limit them in professional shops.
Once you have climb cut 500 l/f of stile and rail material on a powerfed shaper, you will look at that router with a different eye. Quiet, fast, smooth as glass, absolutely no chipped grain, clean (real dust collection), and with operator nerves intact, it is a pleasure every woodworker should have.
I've used router bits in my
I've used router bits in my Delta shaper. Can't say there are any issues or that it's significantly different than using a router table. The speed is lower and the shaper is quieter. You adjust your feed to the cut, same as you would with any machine.
I still want and need a router table and prefer to use that, most of the time. Mainly it has to do with the various jigs, fixtures and specialty fences I typically use. I think for a small shop, the router makes more sense. You can find and buy a lot more router bits, taking advantage of sales and sets than you can with shaper cutters.
As far as router tables sagging or having other issues, that's more a factor of who made the table. They are quite simple to make and you don't really need all the lifts, large router and other accessories that make manufactured tables so expensive.
Router table is only a working table of router. Shaper is a machine.
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