Hi everyone.This is a wood technology question essentially and not one I could easily locate in the archives.
I have a ton of elm that I found after an electrical storm here in the south sent the tree south to the ground.I have resawed it all on my bandsaw.
Question:Would it be possible to use oak facings or veneer approximately 1/8-1/4″ thick on the elm.Using the elm as a substrate of course.The projects will be very small picture frames to very large mirror frames(16″x20″ glass size).I know elm isn’t very stable to use for larger furniture projects.The rails and stiles on the larger mirror frames shouldn’t be over 3″ wide x 3/4″ total thickness.I will probably want to use quartersawn oak facings thus necessitating quartersawing the elm used for the core.Thanks tons in advance for any advice.Roland.
Replies
Roly, I haven't found elm to be unstable after it is well dried. My use of it is fairly limited because I can't find it. But it has a beautiful grain and I wouldn't want to cover it over with oak.
BJ
Roly, I agree with Bee Jay in challenging why you would want to cover up elm with oak. Elm has a very attractive figure. I've made several elm clock cases with moderately large glass-panel door frames (slightly over 1' X 2') without experiencing distortion problems...It's true that elm does present stability risks, but they don't result from its excessive shrinkage. Its average volumetric shrinkage, green to ovendry, is actually comparable to the oaks (much lower than white oak and only slightly higher than red oak.) Also, its T/R ratio; the differential between its radial and tangential shrinkage, is lower than either white or red oak.
Elm's distortion problems seem to stem more from the fact that it has interlocked grain and this sharp variation in grain direction leads to distortion by causing uneven or imbalanced drying stresses...In my experience, the biggest problem has been the tendency for wide boards to cup or twist...especially when used in wide, edge glued panels, where the distortion has the potential to be compounded. Otherwise, I've encountered no problems in working with elm. It's almost impossible to split the stuff, so it has excellent strength properties relative to its weight...and its figure is so attractive it's worth taking a little risk...But if you have your heart set on an oak look, I think the best approach would be to use solid oak and save the elm for another project.
Jon is right of cours,
However, I am one of those who strongly oppose the use of Elm for anything other than land fill. (then only properly bagged and tagged with all red tags plainly visable).
Jon, Have you ever gotten an Elm splinter?
Well I have, it festered and wound up infecting me so badly that only quick surgery removing everything above the neck saved me. In addition as is well known Elm will decay on a damp day. It's use in the south (with it's tendancy for humidity) for furniture sounds to me like a invitation to purchase stock in git rot.
While admittedly a colorful grain I remind everyone that all that glitters is not gold...;-)
Edited 6/10/2002 9:58:52 PM ET by frenchy
Frenchie, other than your comments, how do you like elm. What are its bad points? LOL :-)
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Frenchy...What's a splinter?
Jon, Splinter is short for Splintergroupie, aka Splintie--- I think, but could be wrong-- and she used to be a regular here, and also Montana based woodworker. Haven't seen much of her of late. Slainte, RJ.
RJFurniture
Edited 6/10/2002 11:36:57 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Edited 6/10/2002 11:39:54 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Come to think of it Sgian, I haven't seen a post from Splinter in quite awhile either? Maybe we should launch a cyber rescue team or something...The poor girl must be lost somewhere in this miserable new software.
She ain't lost Jon. But she is just as pig-headed and contrary as you and I, so there, ha, ha. And she's not fond of this format either. With enough provocation I'll winkle the bitch out, and before it gets censored, I said winkle the female dog out. SG is more than able to stand up for herself, but she'll pass on this mild provocation from me. She might send a friendly email off forum congratulating me on my perspicacity(sp?), but that'll probably be it, if she notices. Are you watching, Splintie? Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Why do we want to find her?
Frenchy,
There are several different types of elm I believe here in the South.Jon would know all of this for sure.The elm I have has been out in the rain(in log form,if that makes any difference I don't know) totally uncovered for 4 years.There is practically no rot.Some of the maple I have(also in log form),which has been out there also uncovered for around only 2 years,is half rotten or at the very least spalted.
C'est un bois,ici,au moins,libre de putrification.Je ne sais pas.Roland.
Frenchy,
My commisrations on your infection. Many years ago I stepped on a nail while rebuilding my mother's garage door. I almost lost my foot! Even more years ago, when I was in the Boy Scouts (yes, they had Boy Scouts way back then) while tossing a yucca out of our camp site, I got a yucca needle in my thumb. Another infection. The point being that anything--splinter or nail or anything else--that penetrates the skin can cause an infection--especially if the object remains inside. Hardly a reason to condemn an extremely useful wood to the trash pile.
Besides being used in furniture, elm has long been used in situations where its interlocking grain and decay resistance are an advantage. Wheel hubs and mallet heads are just two examples.
Alan
Alan My child,
Elm is evil, prone to abuse the patience of any wood worker on this planet. It misbehaves in many ways not the least is a pretence to good behavior and then during glue up it suddenly attacts! Twisting turning and warping like the demon it is.
Spawn of satin it is, We nutured and cared for it here in Minneapolis and just when it began to provide some worthwhile shade it got itself infected With a disease out of the Neatherlands, dutch I think they called it. So OK at least it will provide some firewood .....Not! Turns out that it's impossible to split logs into fireplace sizes. Once you do manage to get it split it gives out all the heat of wet willow! (that is if you manage to get it dry before it decays to dust) Ok so we'll try to make furniture out of it because we have so much of it that's dying we'll need to find some use.
HA! If you carefully cut a simple 3 inch long piece it would somehow either grow to 5 inches or shrink to 1 inch. any piece that needed to be straight would turn into boat lumber and any piece that you wanted to bend would either split when you tried to bend it or nicely bend and then go back straight just as you tried to put it in place.
Now someone commented about getting slivers from other juvenile delinquent wood. Sure evan good wood if it's abused will go bad once in a while and give you a sliver, but elm? Let me tell you about the time I was asleep in another state and woke up in the morning with nine festering slivers from elm. Totally innocent (well that's my story and I'm sticking to it)
Frenchy,
LOL... And I feel properly chastised. I had no idea elm purposely worked such evil on complete innocents, none of whom has ever approached any stick of wood with an axe or saw.
Alan
I don't know what kind of elm he got but mine is not anything like that.At least in the decay department.It seems to have the resistance propeties of white oak almost.4 years totally exposed to the elements and nary a spalt even.Perhaps oak here in the south is a wee bit better than yankee elm.
Maybe what I have is piss elm as we call it.Forgive me for being unrefined.Or maybe even slippery elm or is that the same.One name for one species is entirely too easy.There are several different species of elm in the U.S. suffice it to say.I think what I have is entirely diffferent.Peut etre.Roland.
Frenchie, the Royal Navy also had a poor opinion of elm when we planked frigates with it and their cannon balls bounced off. A lot of injuries occured from splintered oak 'shrapnel'. The damn elm wouldn't splinter. At least that's the story I've heard.
BJ
Gardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
BeeJay,
It was white oak that bounced cannonballs my boy! Jeez don't ya read your history? Elm wouldn't last long enough to get to sea let alone bounce a cannon ball off it. White Oak on the other hand is a good well behaved wood that justly deserves it's fine reputation. About the only negative of white oak is the poor ability of wood shavings to decay and form humas.
While it is true there are members of the Oak family that fail to live up to white oak stirling reputation, every family can have it's black sheep.
White oak is selected for wine ageing because it doesn't leak, no-one in their right mind would ever trust Elm with anything more valuable then belly button lint. That is belly button lint from beer drinking bums who don't bathe. That is belly button lint from unbathed drunkards with bad breath. That is belly button lint from unbathed drunkards with bad breath and low morals..........
And how 'bout all them elm hubs on the conestoga wagons the moved the settlers and frieght west.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Jeez don't ya read your history?
Frenchie,
Son, I don't hafta read it . I wuz there.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Bee Jay,
I bow to your senority, didya also get a look at them hubs on the wagons goin' out west? was they hickory or chestnut? Some guy seems to claim they was elm.
I suppose it was possible to strap a few elm boards, slather a ton of paint, wrap 'em in copper and have them actually get out to sea for a month or two before the elm would disappear into powder. Heck the salt water might evan slow the rate of decay to where they'd last several months....
Did the elmclad age preceed the ironclad age?Before the Monitor and Merrimac were the destoyers elmclad? :^)
That is interesting to know the belligerent Brits bounced balls off our superior man 'o wars.That is like I noted before.Elm is second to Hickory as nature's shock absorber.Fabulous elasticity.Roland.
Frenchy, just playin' with your mind 'cause I like the way you think. :~)
I believe Old Ironsides was oak. The ribs in that ship are so closely spaced that the voids are narrower than the ribs. Almost double hulled. I cannot give you references for elm planking, but I believe that it was used and used successfully. I grant you that it would rot faster than white oak but it made a tremendulously strong fighting ship.
Following is a quote from A Natural History of Trees of Eastern and Central North America, Donald Culross Peattie: After stating that elm's modulus of rupture is 12,158 pounds per cubic inch he says "that...for these reasons, elm...has been used for the hubs of heavy wagons where it resists all the pressure and friction that can be brought to bear on it. Large amounts are employed in agricultural implements and sporting goods, in ship building and heavy duty flooring and where ever shock resistance is essential. It is a leading wood for barrel staves and hoop poles. It holds screws better than almost any other wood, and so is valuable for boxes and crates.....No wonder that the cut of elm in 1946 was some 200,000,000 board feet."
And yes, Frenchy, I've split it for fire wood and I believe that I still can. By hand, Frenchy, by hand. LOL ;~)
BJ
Gardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Bee Jay, I can't remember where I read it, but as I recall, elm was viewed as a strategic commodity by the British navy in the 18th and 19th centuries because of its use as ribbing in their war ships. Although none of the elms have outstanding decay resistance, elm provided two very important advantages; first, the typical growth habit of the tree (its so-called vase shape) yielded a natural curvature to the grain that was ideal for the purpose and, second, the wood itself resisted fracturing so well that...even when the ship was broadsided with heavy cannon fire...the elm ribs would hold the planking together. If you've even tried to break an elm stick over your knee, you've experienced this aspect of elm...and learned to appreciate how extremely well elm resists fracture. When you hammer it repeatedly, it is possible to cause it to lose its rigidity, but it none-the-less hangs together like a piece of rope.
...Also, Roly, if you are still following this thread...Judging from a few of the comments you've made, I suspect that the elm you are dealing with isn't American elm (Ulmus americana.) It sounds like it's probably one of the heavier elms; either red elm (U. rubra, AKA slippery elm) or winged elm (U. alata, AKA cork elm)...and most likely the latter. The good news is, winged elm is much stronger than American elm, but the bad news is it is the least stable of our native elm species. If, by chance, it is slippery elm, it will be both a little stronger than American elm and more stable. In fact, with an average volumetric shrinkage of 13.8%, green to ovendry, slippery elm is our most stable elm. On the other hand, winged elm, with a volumetric shrinkage of 17.7%, is the least stable...So, I guess it might pay to get an accurate ID on what species you're dealing with before you embark on any high class cabinetry with this stuff.
BeeJay,
Now I know you're funnin' me man, Ya had me untill I read that it was the leading wood for barrel staves.
No way man, that wood wouldn't hold nuttin' I mean they use white Oak for barrel staves because it won't leak.
Besides think of all of those coopers dieing of infection from festered elm slivers.
Frenchy, being as you're so old, you should remember that there was a time when dry cooperage was an important trade and not all barrels were used to store wet goods...Even I'm old enough to remember wooden nail kegs and a good many of them were elm...and another thing; back then, a skilled cooper could shape a stave without getting a paw full of slivers...You know Frenchy, you sure do have a bad attitute about elm.
frenchy, "you sure do have a bad attitute about elm."
Ha, ha Jon. Spitting beer on my keyboard. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Richard, I thought you were headed across the pond. Steve - in Northern California
I am going home for a visit to the UK next week, specifically Scotland, and I might take in bits of England too. I'll be away for a fortnight. Won't you be pleased NOT to see my moniker giving people hell for a while? How did you know anyway? Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
It's just my makeup.
I'm a cantakerous old koot and since I ain't bigotted 'bout much I reserve the right to be an ELM bigot.
'sides someone has to warn these young whippersnappers of the dangers of Elm, so I'm actually doing a civil service. 'jus think of me as the Elm police........
I can't see a reasonable man selectin' a wood that is so cantakerouse to shape into sumtin' like a barrel stave. White oak sure, and iffin ya' don' need to hold water then pine or sumtin' else that's easy to work. But real honest to God people selectin Elm as a wood to work with? Ya gotta be funnin' me.
Sure they might do it once, but I'm a willin to bet they don' do it twice!
Oh an' by the way, I remeber sittin' around the cracker barrel (pine) and jack jawin' about nails. They always came in white oak kegs. Never in my life did I ever smell the sour Pisp smell of elm. Now pass me the jug whilst I get rid 'o' my chaw.
It's a lonely job, but feel like someone has to get in elm's corner. It makes such a wonderful shade tree, and has held so many tire swings, seems a shame to just burn it when dutch elm hits.
Used some air dried elm to make a music stand prototype. The design still needs some tweaking, but with linseed and shellac the grain really stands out, and looks very much like ash (which may be an acquired taste). And no splinters.
Thanks Jon and Bee Jay for the response.
I agree that elm is very attractive but what I sell(mirrors and picture frames) only sells in quartersawn oak.I have tried selling walnut and cherry but surprisingly it is quartersawn oak that sells the best.People that have Mission style homes or at least Mission interiors aren't interested in anything else it seems.Oak purists.Period purists actually.Other woods aren't worth the effort with such lackluster sales.
Jon,is the seasonal expansion and contraction rate close to the same with the two woods?Once they are fully dried that is?The elm I have is fully air dried.
I may just save it.It doesn seem a shame to cover it up...with a less rare wood.Paradoxical.With linseed oil applied it is a really warm autumnal brown.Not chocolate like walnut.It really takes a stain well also and almost looks like mahagony to some degree when stained that tone.Problem is,however,I really don't have any room to store it.I have quite alot of it actually.Not much white oak at the present time however.Oh well I'll figure something out.Thanks again,Roland.
Roly, none of these woods have exceptionally good stability, but elm hangs right in there with the oaks when it comes to shrinkage properties. Here are the stats:
American elm (Ulmus americana); volumetric, green to ovendry =14.6% ; radial = 4.2% ; tangential = 7.2%.
White oak (Quercus alba); volumetric = 16.3% ; radial = 5.6% ; tangential = 10.5%.
Red oak (Quercus rubra, AKA northern red); volumetric = 13.7% ; radial =4.0% ; tangential = 8.6%.
As I mentioned in the earlier post, the stability problem with elm seems to relate more to its tendency to distort (as a result of its interlocked grain) than it does to its shrinkage properties. It's a little stringy to work with and it has a rather memorable aroma...sorta makes you keep glancing down at your fly for leaks, but it sure has eye appeal once the project is finished. Even Frenchy would probably like it...if that Klutz weren't so prone to picking up slivers.
Edited 6/11/2002 12:05:03 AM ET by Jon Arno
Thanks for the info Jon.I figured it's stats were about the same as oak due to its similar density.
As to the interlocking grain this is probably why it is the premier wood for bowl turning.I have also read it is second only to Hickory when it comes to shock absorbtion properties.Somewhat surprisingly I have never seen drumsticks fashioned from elm.Mostly just Hickory and Japanese oak,Jazz sticks use Maple because of its lightness,of course,however they can't really take rim shots.Thank again.Roland.
>> ... what I sell ... only sells in quartersawn oak.
OK, I can understand that. What I don't understand is what the elm would have added to the equation. Is elm lumber AND oak veneer AND the time it takes to glue it up still cheaper than oak lumber?
I saw my own veneers up on my bandsaw.1/8" thick or better.As to the cost of the elm it is free and I have already sawed most of it up.Yes it'll take a little time to veneer it,glueing and clamping and such,however,I have alot more time than money at this point.I got tons of clamps.What I really need is a vacuum veneering set up.Thanks Roland.
>> ... I have alot more time than money at this point.
I hear that, good buddy! I just didn't have a clear idea of the economics of the situation.
Hey Roly, if you've got a storage space problem and you live near enough to me, maybe I can store it. Might be hard to find when you come back to get it. LOL
Or maybe I could swap the the 4 ft dia. red oak log I've got. It ought to quartersaw up just fine.
BJ
Gardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Edited 6/12/2002 1:09:07 AM ET by Bee Jay
I am a materials engineer as well as cabinetmaker by profession.
Here is a good source for calculating timber shrinkage & other properties (wood.xls) - am unfamiliar with elm characteristics as I do not live in US.
http://wood.orst.edu/leavengood/
Hope it helps.
Eddie
What, no more elm bashing?
Ya ever tried to bash Elm? shooot the dang stuff ain't got the brains god gave a stone and the more ya bash the stuff the more frustrated you get. It's too dumb to be bashed worth a hoot.... aaaaaaannnnnndd the slivers, my gawd the slivers!
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