Several times, I’ve seen end mills recommended for router work. I’d like to get some consolidated discussion on what their best and safest use is, and what to not use them for. For example, I’m using a 2mm straight router bit to mill grooves 1/8″ to 3/16″ deep (not through the wood) in both soft woods and hard woods. Would an end mill be appropriate?
What reminded me of this is the new Enco flyer — 2-flute end mills are pictured. TIA.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Edited 5/1/2005 2:05 am ET by forestgirl
Replies
A wood end mill has a much higher rake angle because it has to to eject the chip efficiently.Because it is a helix design it constantly maintains contact with the stock.Whether you use an end mill or a regular double edge router bit the difference is not too noticable ,sandpaper is all you need to clean off any light groove marks the difference is that metal does not have grain direction the way wood does which it can sometimes cause severe gouge .cheers Pete.
Thanks Pete. Hmmmm -- "A wood end mill...." Previous discussions didn't alert me to "wood end mills" vs. "metal end mills." I thought they were all for metal. Sounds like you meant "using an end mill in wood...."??
I see the steep angle though. Also noticed, looking at the main catalog, that the shaft on most of them has an indented area in it.
If I can use these, it'd be great. A 1/16" "3 flute M-42 Cobalt centercutting" end mill is only $4.16 way cheapter than a 2mm router bit, and 1/16" will work for what I'm doing. But aside from that specific task, I'm interested in the general guidelines for using them in woodworking.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/1/2005 2:24 am ET by forestgirl
not sure if the relief angle of end mills and router bits are very different,.. metal cutting uses a coolant or air to remove chips! the price of the bit doesn't seem too hard to bear. and the flats on some of the other bits is used to clamp them into a chuck using set screws, I don't know if this would allow dust or gunk to build-up in the bit holder on the router over time. So, slow speeds and feeds until you are comfortabe using them
FG.
My shop is set up to work both wood and metal.
I use the metal cutting end mills in a router to cut wood and plastics as well some light aluminum. For use in the router,I sometimes reduce the rotary speed.
These cutters are precision ground,and yes,are much cheaper than the commercial router bits. Most are high speed steel and in wood produce a virtually flawless shearing cut. When used for metal,a substantially slower spindle speed is used. As a rule, the holder for tools on the milling machine,have a set screw to secure the cutter. Hence the notch in the shank that you asked about.
Work safely.¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Thank you,Mr.Croney,where ever you may be.
Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
Hi, Pat, thanks for the info. I'd be interested in using them for Plexiglas, mostly to make displays for the store and maybe some stuff for the shop. Can you give some guidelines for cutting plexi??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey FG, I managed a production plastic shop for about a year about 15 years ago, and will still do a little every now and then. What do you need to know?
Hi, RB, thanks for LMK your experience. I don't have anything specific right now, but I do need to make some new displays for my store. When I get into the planning stage, I'll drop you a line!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hey FG,
I've been a machinst for a looonnng time and have a little insight into this issue. The recommendation to use endmills designed for aluminum is pretty good, but there are companies out there that make endmills for ferrous metals (steel and iron), aluminum, plastic, and wood. For the most part, it is wise to use solid carbide and not high speed steel. Notice I say for the most part. I do not want to denigrate anyone using HSS because it will work. It will not take the heat that carbide will nor last anywhere near as long. Plus, the price of carbide endmills just keeps on dropping while the quality improves every year. There is a lot of competition and the manufacturing equipment, abrasives, and techniques continue to evolve.
A couple things; try to use endmills that do not have a flat ground on them (these are referred to as Weldon flats). They will compromise your holding power, risk damaging your collets, and degrade accuracy. Gradual spirals are usually best as they will discourage tearout but still evacuate chips.
One of our trade magazines, Cutting Tool Engineering, http://www.ctemag.com has a nice article on routing plastics, in which they discuss the clearance angles and cutting face geometry necessary for good results in plastic. I found myself in agreement with all aspects covered so the guy had to be right. :-) It was written by an application engineer for Onsrud Cutter LP. http://www.onsrud.com No surprise here. These guys make great router bits as well as great metalcutting endmills, and they are optimized by material. Check them out.
Greg
Greg, thanks for the tips, the vocabulary phrase "Weldon flat" and the links you provided. Much appreciated.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
Hope you find it helpful. At least now when someones refers to the flat you can say, "Oh, you mean the Weldon flat." :-) It's named after the company that introduced it. They have been absorbed in about 6 million mergers in the past 20 or so years but were a premier end mill manufacturer for many years. The size of the flat was dimensioned such that the proper set screw would touch the both angualar walls of the slot just as it touched the flat itself during tightening, meaning that the endmill would be positioned repeatably for length when removed and replaced, at least for the standards of the day. It could not pull out under cutting force, the helix of the end mill tends to pull the tool into the work piece, as there was mechanical interference. In today's world, we use hyraulic holders, shallow taper collets (more like routers collets) shrink-fit or hydromechanical holders. You can now store all this under the category of more than you wanted to know. :-)
Greg
"You can now store all this under the category of more than you wanted to know. :-)" Toooooo funny! I'll pull it out of my hat at the next cocktail party I go to (Whaaaa?) ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG. I used plexiglas as a generic term for plastics. I think that your question could be better answered by someone in the sign making business. Maybe some one will answer.
As for plastics--I was able to pick up a quantity os shorts from a bowling alley re-do.The end that gets the ball drop is covered with a hard phenolic about 7/16"thick. The material is perfectly flat and even in thicknes. I use it for profile templates of all kinds as well as for table saw inserts.The edge cutoffs,I mill to fit the saw table grooves and use for table saw sled guides.
Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Thank you,Mr.Croney,where ever you may be.
Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
Hey, Pat, I'll keep that bowling alley salvage in mind! My son-in-law bowls in tournaments, so he'll know if anyone local is redoing their place.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie, if you're looking for small pieces (i.e., less than full sheet) of plastic -- phenolic, Lexan¯ or other plastic, check in the phone book for plastics suppliers -- our local one has a scrap bin, last time I rooted through it for stuff, they charged me a very reasonable price for it. My ¾-inch Lexan¯ base for my router table I'm building cost me less than ten bucks. Dead flat and bullet proof, literally.Regards,Leon Jester
I know that freud has one or two spiral type bits in there catalogue ,not sure about diameters but as one of our other friends mentioned earlier an aluminum type cutter with 2 flutes can work on wood,4 flute forget it.As for any advantages I dont think there any,you also mentioned that you can get them for around $5.00,I will bet that they are not solid carbide they would cost around 3 to 4 times more,probably a low to midrange high speed steel and that would dull pretty quick not to mention using lower feed and speed rates.A spiral type cuttermust be reground on a special type grinder whereas a 2 flute straight edge carbide cutter can be rehoned with a diamond card from DMT etc.Later Pete.
The solid carbide end mills in Enco's big catalog run between $4.50 and $5.50 in the sizes I'm looking at (1/32-1/8D on a 1/8" shank). Quarter inch shanks start around $7.60 -- These are all "Atrax" brand, made in USA. Of course, I have no idea about their reputation.
The sale end mills are from the same company and run from $4-$5 and $6.79 respectively.
Freud does carry a 2mm bit which will be useful for this project, but I'm interested in other alternatives.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
because it has to to eject the chip efficiently..
I use end-mills.. Sometimes.. I just take it a bit slower but 'what I know?'
Ive tied them and to me there are no advantges besides who is going to see how clean your motises look as long as lon as it fits snug ,thats it.cheers Pete.
Some data on the spirals at the FAQ link, no. 12.
FG,
I have used a 1/2 four flute spiral end mill once and had poor results in that it seemed to dull very quickly. I think that this was caused by using it at high speeds. If I were to try this again, I think I would keep the speed down. I'm not sure why these would be different than spiral router bits, although my solid carbide spiral bits seem to go and go without dulling. It must have something to do with the sharpening angles/flute angles.
TDF
Darn, can't find the flyer -- must have left it at work. Yep, 4-flute would probably need much lower speed. I'm going to try and fine 2-flute in the right size. Otherwise, definitely will slow the router down.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I use them in my horizontal boring machie to mill mortises. I think the speed is about 3650 RPM. They produce nice clean mortises. The ones I have are 4 flute but I'm told that the two flute ones used for milling alluminum are the best for woodworking. Grizzly has them also. Art
"I'm told that the two flute ones used for milling alluminum are the best for woodworking." Ah, thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hello, I mentioned this in another post already, but thought you might like to know this as well. I don't know how you have used your four flute bits. They are fantastic when shaving along the side of the bit, but they aren't meant for boring or plunge work since there is no cutting edge completely across the bottom of the bit. Good luck.
Datachanel
Doing things the hard way
I'd just like a clarification, are we discussing using end mill bits, or using an end mill itself? If we're discussing the bits, then yes a slower feed is good because of the difference of angle with clearing chips. The general rule of thumb when using an endmill on metal is never cut more in depth than half the diameter of the bit itself. So when I'm shaving 0.020inch I'm not concerned as much about clearing metal chips. Also, in regards to using four flute vs two flute, four flute are fantastic when cuttin along their sides, but are not meant for boring or plunge work since their cutting edges don't connect across the bottom of the bit. Good luck.
Datachanel
Doing things the hard way
Edited 5/1/2005 1:32 pm ET by datachanel
Yep, we're discussing the end mill bits. Can hardly afford yet another tool, LOL. Thanks for your input!
What do they mean by "centercutting end mill?"
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/1/2005 1:45 pm ET by forestgirl
Alright I've pulled out my copy of "Machine Tool Practices." and it looks like I should have done more of the reading for my class. There are two kinds of four flute bits. The typical are gashed-end and don't have a cutting edge across the end. The second type is center cutting, where a cutting edge does run across the end. All two flute cutters are center cutting. So center cutting means that you can bore or plunge with it. Also as I read, four flute end mill cutters are stronger and allow for a faster feed rate, as well as a finer finish. Apparently there are three different helix angles available for end mills besides straight flutes. A slow helix is 12 degrees, regular is 30, and a fast helix is 40 degrees or more. I hope this is helpful. If you come up with any more questions I'll be happy to try to look them up.
Datachanel
Doing things the hard way
"I hope this is helpful." I'd say it was, thanks! Sounds like I should add that book to my library, LOL. You post was very helpful.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks to FG for starting this thread, but question is ...
How useful is an end mill (not the bits) for woodworking?Can it substitute for a drill press?
Ian
Well, it depends what you want to do. An end mill machine gives you control over movement in three axes (typically) and precision of up to .001 inches (typically). An drill press or a mortise machine have a lot of the same capabilities, but not the same degree of precision.Datachanel
Doing things the hard way
Well, I found the sale flyer, and the section in the big catalog with solid carbide single end mills, both 2-flute and 4-flute. The ones that have the super-small diameters are 1/8" shank -- that should be OK in a Dremel, right? It's pretty amazing (to me): They will cut as small as a .01 diameter.
The Enco catalog has some good stuff for us WWers. They carry dial indicators and such by Starrett, Mitutoyo, Browne & Sharpe and others. And their own least-expensive brand. If you're interested, here's their home page:http://www.use-enco.com/
Anyone out there use a Mighty Mag magnetic base??
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
I've not tried the Mighty Mag for setup, but I do use the Heavy-Duty Magnetic V-base immediately below it (page 199 in the online catalog) - as a means of attaching featherboards, jigs, and the like on the band and table saws, disk sander, drill press, etc.
It's great having that switch - flipping on the 'grip' is SO much easier than fumbling with clamps most of the time ... at $12 each, I got 4 so I could swap them out of fixtures and use more than one - though 2 would suffice most of the time, sometimes having 3 or 4 points held solidly is great.
They're also tapped (I think 8mm?) for even easier attachment of other pieces - guides, runners, fences, etc. - and the magnet 'pulls' from two adjacent faces (bottom and back). Using the back side is nice, that leaves the switch on top and the tap on the side. Glue a thin strip of rubber on the 'pull' faces so that they can't slip on the tables, et voila!
Clay
Hi, Clay, thanks. "It's great having that switch...." How does that thing work anyway? I've always wondered (I mean internally; I know how to make it work, LOL).
The Mighty Mag seems like it would be useful for most applications in a woodshop, and less fussy than the usual bases.
The shop-made magnetic featherboard in the attachment below was posted by "Winston" at WWA using the type of base you mentioned (click here and scroll down). The details you provided in the last paragraph of your post were great! Thanks.
[PS: IGNORE the 2nd attachment; they are duplicates]forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks, I like that one!
Here's a slightly different magnetic fatherboard ...
Clay
I use "end cutting" end mills with a router mounted on the cross slide of my lathe and use it to make rounds or tapers. Have to fool with the autofeed rate to get a good surface, but it saves lotsa time...
If you happen to be in Kent Washington on the right days Boeing Surplus has some great prices on end mills http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/surplus/retail/index.html but watch your sizes/diameters do to some have been resharpend, this can be an advantage at times do to you need an end mill just a little bit smaller for a dowl or repair, I use end mills in wood working & as a cutting tool on my lathe work & they work just fine for me.
P.S. you might want to check the links on the Boeing link they have some used woodworking machines - Powermatic Planer & Oliver Shapers.
Cutting wood on metalworking vertical mills is done all the time by pattern makers. Casting shops that do small runs use wooden paterns.
-- J.S.
Just my $.02.....
I have used solid carbide, cobalt and HSS endmills with great success for all types of routing applications. I too have a background in manufacturing, and I would tend to agree that a 2-flute style will typically be your best bet for woodworking, the additional flute space will help a great deal with chip evacuation. Quite often I grab the EMs that have been reground to the point where we are no longer able to use them for metalworking (freebies), and continue to use them for woodworking.
Steve
Also, regarding the mag bases....
If your looking for a mag base to use strictly as a mag base, the Noga type mag bases are the only way to go (rugged, great magnet strength, fine adjustment, super quick setup), for use with dial indicators or finger indicators. They are more money, but well worth it if you believe it's something you will use often.
If your only looking for magnets to build a custom featherboard, just get a couple of cheapos...should work fine.
Steve
Steve,
Got a good source for 'Noga type' magnetic bases?
Thanks,
Clay
Clay,
Try:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMPI?PMPANO=0297781&PMKBNO=907&PMPAGE=42
Enco has deals on these quite often, occasionally you can pick one up for $50-60 with a 1" dial travel indicator thrown in. I have 4 of them that have seen some pretty heavy use in the machine shop, they are worth the money provided you use one frequently.
Steve
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