Replies

1. 
   John_D | Jan 06, 2006 04:04am | #1

   Chat up a luthier -- they know as much about hide glue as you'll ever want to know.

   My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
1. 
   Yogi | Jan 06, 2006 04:58am | #2

   What's a "luthier?"-

1. 
   highfigh | Jan 06, 2006 06:12am | #3

   A luthier is someone who makes musical instruments. Comes from the word lute, which is a stringed medieval instrument. There are luthiers and instrument repair people in just about every city. You can find them if you go to the symphony or to see a band. Just about everyone who has ever played an instrument has needed some kind of repair. Many music stores have someone who does repairs working for them, too. While you're asking about how to mix and apply hide glue, ask about how to remove it, too.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   Yogi | Jan 06, 2006 07:18am | #4

   <<<  "...While you're asking about how to mix and apply hide glue, ask about how to remove it, too..." >>>

   Warm water-  Adding a little vinegar helps- 

1. 
   highfigh | Jan 06, 2006 09:39am | #5

   Yup, but I don't remember anyone saying anything about it in any of the articles I read.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   RMillard | Jan 06, 2006 01:49pm | #6

   Hide glue is by far my favorite glue, and I'm sure you will find it very useful. I mix the glue in small soup cans to minimize clean up, and to allow me to change between different formulas of glue.Place the soup can in the glue pot with water around it.  I pour in what amount I think I need, and then add water until the glue is just covered by the water. Let it sit for a a half hour or so, and heat it up. The glue will be quite thick, so add water until it runs off the brush in a steady stream. If the breaks up into drops, it is too thin. You'll need to add water from time to time to keep this consistency. Once it is mixed it has a shelf life about 2-3 days, (probably longer but I don't keep it any longer than that). The open time is very short, without additives, especially in cold weather. The addition of urea, which can be purchased from Homestead Finishing Products, will slow the set time and allow you to use it for small sub assemblies. I never add more than about 20% urea by volume to the glue, but I believe I read where 30% is okay. I mix the urea in water and add it to the hide glue, to insure even distribution of the urea. Warming the wood, with a heat lamp or even in the oven, will also work well ( but watch for warping the wood from uneven heat). I've also heard of using salt to slow the gel time, but I have not tried this. The addition of the urea will make the glue remain gummy for a while, but it won't affect the ultimate strength. Hide glue without additives, cures very hard, and is quite brittle.

   Hammer veneering is where hide glue is at its best. It also is great for rubbing on glue blocks or knee returns on cabriole legs, something that would be difficult with a glue that required clamps. Rubbing, is just what it sounds like, you brush on the glue, and with a small back and forth movement you rub the piece in place. As the glue is spread out and gels, it will grab the piece ( glue block, knee return etc.) without the need for a clamp.

   To see a project where I used hide glue please go to,

   http://home.woh.rr.com/federalfurniture/

   Rob Millard

    

1. 
   park | Jan 20, 2006 06:14am | #11

   Thanks for your explination on how to use the hot liquid hide glue.  Too many articals on hide glue either overlook the subject or make a black art of the process.  Also not to be overlooked is cold liquid hide glue in the bottle.  I made a walnut coffee table and end table with Franklin Hide Glue in junior high school back in l955 .  The joints today still shown no sign of separation.  I put a finish on undersides side of the tops to seal the wood from moisture.  The tables have endured periods in the attic during hot and cold seasons without showing signs of glue joint failure today.

   I found it important for the joints to have flat surfaces to bond together.  Strength and duribility of the hide glue joint depends not only on how the glue is prepared but also on how your materials are prepared for joining.  Joint failure is not always the fault of the glue.  Hide glue is not a gap filler.  I think hide glue is great!

1. 
   RMillard | Jan 20, 2006 01:53pm | #12

   Park,

   I too, use the liquid hide glue. I have gotten away from using it as much as I did, because of its short shelf life. Now I just add a little urea to the hot hide glue. I will continue to use the liquid hide glue for complex assemblies ( sideboards come to mind).

   I agree completely on proper joinery. As the saying goes, you can't glue air. Liquid hide glue is even less forgiving than hot hide glue in this respect, because it remains gummy in thick sections. Thick sections of hot hide glue would desiccate over time, and would fall apart too.

   As for describing the process, some writers, seem to give out just enough information to get a reader into trouble, similar to a person, who leaves an ingredient out of a recipe. I just had an acquaintance, who wanted to try hammer veneering. He read where you put glue on both the veneer and substrate, and this caused him no end of troubles, as he was swimming in glue. when I told him I never did that, instead I only apply glue to the substrate, he tried it, not surprisingly it worked. He use to be a dedicated vacuum "bagger", but now he is in the hammer veneer camp.

   Rob Millard

    

    

2. 
   loucarabasi | Jan 22, 2006 12:18pm | #13

   Mr M, I recently built 1-3/8'' interior mahogany doors and was puzzled on what type of glue to use for the cope and stick joints. I ended up using a PVA glue. Was this a good choice or should I use a different glue next time?

   Lou C

1. 
   RMillard | Jan 24, 2006 04:43am | #14

   Lou,

   I think white PVA glue would be a good choice for making an interior door. I know I'm in minority, but I dislike yellow glue and won't use it, but white glue is an excellent product.

   I go with the hide glue for the reproductions I make, because it allows me to do some processes that would be difficult otherwise ( glue blocks, knee returns, hammer veneering etc.), and I expect the reproductions to last at least as long as the originals have. Hide glue does not impede future repairs, the way some modern glues can. On projects that don't have the kind of life expectancy I hope my reproductions have, I don't hesitate to use white glue. As an example, I'm making a wall unit, for a customer, to replace one I made for them over ten years ago, I'll use white glue for it without a second thought.

   Rob Millard

1. 
   loucarabasi | Jan 24, 2006 12:05pm | #15

   RM, ok, I Thought yellow was stronger than white. Why should I use the white.

   Thanx Lou

1. 
   RMillard | Jan 24, 2006 03:24pm | #17

   Lou,

   I'm unimpressed by the greater strength of yellow glue, as even white glue exceeds the strength of the wood. Also, yellow seems even more prone to creep than white glue, and it has a more limited shelf life. On mortise & tenons, I aim for a fairly tight fit, and brush a thin layer of glue on both the tenon and inside the mortise. A tight fitting tenon acts like a squeegee, and would strip off the glue as it is driven home. This could not only starve the joint, but force the glue into the bottom of the mortise, where it could keep the joint from pulling together.By applying a thin layer of glue to each mating surface, these potential problems are eliminated. For all the ink dovetails get, I think mortise and tenons are more difficult to make.

     I believe that period doors and windows were built without glue, and depended on the pegs to hold things together.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   loucarabasi | Jan 28, 2006 11:47am | #19

   Thanks RM, I thought I knew everything.  The reason I did not use Hide glue. Is that someone told me one time that the hide glue seams to give way when the door would be slammed up against the jamb. Is their any truth to this? And what do I watch out for with hide glue i.e Glue showing up in the stain and finish

   Mucho Gracias, Lou

3. 
   RMillard | Jan 28, 2006 05:30pm | #20

   Lou,

   I can see where a thick section of hide glue, could give way, under the hammering of a door hitting the jamb, as hide glue is quite brittle, but a well cut joint would avoid that.

   With liquid hide glue, it is very important to use fresh glue. The bottles come with an expiration date. In the summer I store the glue in the refrigerator to insure it stays fresh.

   With hot hide glue, you have to add urea to slow the gel time, but even the addition of urea, does not make hot hide glue suitable for a complex glue up. If you warmed the wood, you might get by using hot hide glue, with urea added, to glue up a full size door, but the liquid hide glue is a better choice.

   Unlike white and yellow glue, you can safely wipe hide glue with a damp rag, and not worry about it showing up under a dye or stain.

   Rob Millard

    

4. 
   loucarabasi | Jan 28, 2006 11:30pm | #21

   R, Thank you sir

   -Lou

2. 
   AdamCherubini | Jan 24, 2006 02:42pm | #16

   Lou,Use a different glue next time. PVA glues only develop bond strength under high clamp pressure. These sorts of pressures (150-250psi- depending on the species) are difficult or impossible to achieve in M&T joinery. But to complicate matters, the gap filling glues - like hide glue and epoxy, tend to extrude out of tight joints. So what should we do? If we make high quality M&T joints, they may well too tight for hide glue and not tight enough for PVA. On paper it seems the thing to do is make looser M&T and use epoxy or hide glue. Brother, I'm not willing to do that. I may be an engineer, but sometimes you have to go with your gut (don't tell anybody I said that!) So what I do is drawbore my M&T joints, but I understand why that's not always possible stylistically. In general, I think we should be using PVA wherever we can put the clamps on and want an invisible bondline. Where you can't use clamps or where there are some gaps, the choice should probably be hide glue.Adam

3. 
   Pondfish | Jan 06, 2006 02:41pm | #7

   I started using hide glue when I decided to try my hand at hammer veneering.  After reading an old FWW article on it (HV), I bought the hammer from LV and tried it out.  My first few tries weren't the greatest, but I quickly saw what needed to be done.

   This is a good way to learn--some reading, then doing.  I like hide glue, whether made up from pearl glue in the pot, or the stuff from Titebond (which I am using on my current project).  For complicated glue-ups. it's great.

   Just don't overheat the glue, or let it go bad.  You'll smell it if it goes bad!

   Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
1. 
   John_D | Jan 06, 2006 10:28pm | #8

   I have luthier acquaintances who in a pinch have also used ordinary unflavored gelatin as an easy-to-prepare hide glue.  I don't know if the strength is different.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

1. 
   lwj2 | Jan 07, 2006 05:13am | #9

   I have luthier acquaintances who in a pinch have also used ordinary unflavored gelatin as an easy-to-prepare hide glue. I don't know if the strength is different.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^It's probably a bit lower than regular hide glue made from pearls.I used it on a windsor style stool several years ago and it's still holding up.Leon

4. 
   AdamCherubini | Jan 11, 2006 04:46am | #10

   I don't think you need a degree to use this stuff. What Rob has said is enough. All you need to concern yourself with is consistency (unless you are doing hammer veneering, which I've not done and I understand to be a bit more demanding).

   Skip the urea. If you want to slow it down, just use Franklin Hide glue which is nothing more than hide glue with a bunch of urea added. But don't do this any time soon. Learn to work with it straight.

   I've heard, like many foods, hide glue is better the next day. So the first day you use it, just try to adjust your pot to maintain consistency. Then cook up that same batch the next day and try it again. You'll see it behaves differently. Hide glue stays fine in my shop for at least a week of daily reheatings. Try that too.

   Skip the luthiers. They know way more than you need to about hide glue. What they are doing really isn't similar to what most of us are doing- they have different goals, etc. I agree entirely with what Rob said about rub joints.

   Just try it and you'll be fine. Have fun with it.

   adam

5. 
   Napie | Jan 27, 2006 04:47am | #18

   I use it a lot for rubbed joints.  See Tage Frid's book on joinery, lots of info on hide glue.