Replies

1. 
   Ron_Brese | Jun 06, 2001 01:11am | #1

   *
   b From the Workshop of Ron Brese

   Mark, Similar questions about veneering over solid wood have been posted on this board before. One group will tell you that it has been done successfully for a very long time, the other group will tell you that it is a mistake and will come apart just a few seasonal changes. Quite frankly I can't imagine that compared to the price of other
   premium hardwoods that the cost of making an object of this size out of oak, quartered or flat sawn, would be prohibitively expensive. In an object of this type the labor costs will usually dwarf the material cost to an extent that the overall material cost is not as big a factor as you might imagine. Unless you are already set up to do veneering in a somewhat efficient manner, you will spend more in labor than the cost of the solid material. Of course all this is in the assumption that you are doing this on a professional basis. If you are doing this as a hobbiest project and are interested in learning about veneering, then you will have to weigh the answers of the 2 groups of opinion about veneering over solid wood and take your chances.

1. 
   scott_murray | Jun 06, 2001 01:23am | #2

   *Mark,My advice is don't do it. Use a stable substrate like MDF and veneer both sides. This meants you'll had to do some edge banding as well, but veneering quarter sawn to plain sawn is asking for trouble.Why? The difference in movement would be too great. One of the reasons quarter sawn is used in furniture making is that it is very stable (compared to flat sawn). In Hoadley's "Understanding Wood", white oak (going from green to oven dry moisture content) shrinks 10.5% tangentially (flat sawn), and 5.6% radially(quarter sawn). A T/R ratio of 1.8. If you lay one on top of the other, what do you suppose would happen?Quarter sawn is expensive, but... Estimate what your project time would be to veneer everything with 1/8 stock, and compare that to buying 3/4 quarter sawn stock and building straight away. Might not be that big of a difference when comparing your time with material cost. FWIWthe rev

1. 
   Sgian_Dubh | Jun 06, 2001 03:31am | #3

   *Hmm, let's see? An antique clock movement worth maybe $2,000- $3,000? And a sympathetically made and historically accurate case costing maybe $5,000+. Put the two together, and you might have a clock worth $8,000- $10,000? I think I'd spring the money and do it as it's meant to be out of solid stuff, but there again, perhaps the movement, and the original clock were not really antique in the first place, nor at all valuable? Otherwise I can't see any reason for such a parsimonious attitude and and almost unforgivable disinterest in finding a sympathetic treatment for a valuable antique. Sliante, RJ.

1. 
   Dave_Arbuckle | Jun 06, 2001 06:18am | #4

   *I think I agree with Sgian... (Ceeripes, the word I understood best was "sliante" ;-))Mark, around here at least (here is Dallas Texas), quartersawn White Oak isn't THAT expensive, without trying for a good price at all I can get it in the under six buck range, I'm sure. I'm trying to imagine how many board feet could possibly be used in a tall case clock, and not coming up with any huge number.I'm not adverse to veneering a piece when appropriate, but Arts and Crafts style is really not a veneered style.Dave

1. 
   CStanford_ | Jun 06, 2001 03:24pm | #5

   *The pejorative meaning of 'veneer' arises from the very practice of putting high quality materials over sub-standard ones like MDF. Is MDF stable? You bet. Is it essentially crap? You bet. Is its use the complete antithesis of quality woodworking? You bet. Would I be caught dead before using it in the project you mentioned? You bet.I did not coin the term, but I've used it before - the phrase 'curb furniture' describes anything built out of MDF for that is where it is destined to end up. It WILL NOT stand the test of time. I guarantee it.It is a beautiful material for building assembly table tops and simple workbenche tops as long as it's fashioned in a manner that allows its replacement from time to time.

2. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jun 06, 2001 03:59pm | #6

   *Mark,I heartily agree with the Rev and Sgian, especially on the wood movement issues. Being a native of East Lansing, I am familiar with the high humidities there. Also, try Johnson's Work Bench in Charlotte, they have excellent quality hardwoods at reasonable prices.IMO, any other substitute over quarter sawn oak for a Mission Style clock (Arts & Crafts was a movement, not a style) would be in direct conflict to the basic tenants of the movement, which was simplicity of design and "honest" joinery.FWIW, I even agree with Stanford about the use of MDF.Dano

3. 
   Mark_Blumer | Jun 06, 2001 11:47pm | #7

   *Thank you all for your considered answers. I am going to use solid 1/4 sawn wood. Incidentally, I am not a novice woodworker and I have veneered projects in the past (I have also sliced my own veneer). I have just never veneered onto a solid hardwood field before using two different cuts of wood thatI knew had very different rates of movement, and that was my question. Thanks for the help.Mark Blumer (East Lansing, MI)

4. 
   Anders_Woodson | Jun 08, 2001 07:39am | #8

   *FWIW department.42 years ago I made my wife a pair of 8'tall glass door book cases. The built up top molding starts with a 8 inch wide board. As the pieces are a matched pair, I used 1/8" sawn veneer (of QS white oakover 3/4" poplar) on both sides, of course. In the wild temp and humidity changes here in Minnesota there has not been a problem even though the unseen side has no finish on it. I used hide glue then. I have done alot of veneering over solid wood, and IMO you would not have a problem with it if properly glued and clamped.

5. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jun 08, 2001 04:24pm | #9

   *Anders,A pair of 8' tall book cases is a little different than a Mission Style clock. I do agree that veneering over a solid secondary wood is common and even "traditional". However, the veneers typically were not 1/8" in thickness. While your project may have justified the labor involved for the size of the project, IMO, you have been lucky. In my mind, 42 years is a drop in the bucket and the true measure of your success will be what condition the piece is in 40 more years down the road.The other reason for my recomemdation was (is) based on more philosophical reasoning. In part, the Arts and Crafts movement that arose out of England in the 1890s was due to the belief that standing in front of a machine degraded the soul (this was the height of the Industrial Revolution). The belief was that by getting back to less "vulgar" designs and more "traditional" wood working methods, the craftsman would "cleanse" the soul and it would remain pure. Stickley chose White Oak as his primary medium because the open grain of Oak showed the true character of the tree. He also believed that by not hiding his joints (through tenons, splined miters, etc.) that the joinery would be more "honest". I believe that if one is going replicate a style or design, one should remain true to the philosophy and techniques used originally. FWIW.Dano

6. 
   David_A._Brown | Jun 11, 2001 01:25am | #10

   *I make small, fairly inexpensive plant stands as a hobby and for occasional craft shows. They typically have 12" round hardwood tops. I always glue up several narrow boards to get the 12" width. It keeps them flatter than using one or two wide boards for the tops.Quarter sawn oak sells better than flat sawn. I cheat. I take whatever flat sawn oak I have and rip it into 13/16ths slices. I glue those slices together rotated 90 degrees. The edge grain is now on the face. A couple passes thru the planer and I have quarter sawn oak to use as tops for my plant stands. This usually only takes a few more minutes, since I'm already gluing up tops from narrow pieces.Just an alternative. No ethical opinion, No moral principles expressed. Do what you've got to do.Dave

7. 
   Jim_Hassberger | Sep 05, 2001 12:31am | #11

   *Ditto Anders note.I've made similar "thick-veneered" pieces in the past, usually to conserve particularly attractive figure, and often on dissimilar solid wood substrates. Some of these pieces were moved from humid areas of the country to far more arid areas, with no problems. Unlike Anders, however, I do finish the unseen side, usually with shellac.I seem to recall an article in FWW a few years ago on the practice, and I'm pretty sure that Krenov has written about using "thick" resawn veneers. (I'm not at home so can't easily look up references, sorry).Notwithstanding the above, I do agree with the other comments about the relative worth of time vs material, and of remaining true to the style and/or integrity of design.