There’s a discussion in Tools (link below) called ‘Glue-line rip’ that has evolved to a subsidiary exchange about vacuum fences.
Vacuum as workshop aid has long interested me, but I’ve never tried any of the options (veneering, bending, holding articles for machining and so on).
However, Bill Lindau’s vacuum fence for his MiniMax combo intrigued me. I have a variety of holding problems that this potentially solves. ‘Why not’, I thought, ‘just plug the ends of a channel in my aluminium extrusion fence, drill some holes, and plug in the shop-vac?’
Well, it’s done. And as soon as my wife brings home the camera, I’ll put up some shots. Thanks Bill!
Took me about 45 minutes and some found objects. Holds even rough-sawn wood against the fence really well, has a graduated pull so that maximum grip occurs as the wood passes the centre of the blade, doesn’t compromise the normal function of the fence.
I can see me moving on to a vacuum grip that sits on my sliding table, so that I can grip and hold pieces of wood against jigs fixed to the slider. Great for production work – no hold-downs, clamps or fiddly wedging. A length of hollow aluminium extrusion is just about all you need.
Any other examples out there? Shop-made veneer pressing next!
Malcolm
Here’s the other string:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=23162.1
Edited 4/24/2005 12:46 am ET by kiwimac
Replies
... and here's the photos
Kiwimac
The photos are really great. I can imagine what it means to have a system like yours. Clean design and not really complicated. You should market it. Again , thanks for the insite.
[email protected]
T.O.
Edited 4/24/2005 2:25 am ET by Woodmann
That vacuum clamp idea seems to me to have vast potential, especially if one has a proper vacuum pump which is reliable and also adjustable for different applications.
I am mulling over something related- using compressed air and fire hosing to make clamps and presses for gluing etc, . I think that compressed air is under utilised in the average wood working shop.
Am I right in thinking that there is a simple device that one can connect to an ordinary compressor, to get vacuum?
> That vacuum clamp idea seems to me to have vast potential, especially if one has a proper vacuum pump which is reliable and also adjustable for different applications <
The assumption I've made is that this setup will be powered by my shop-vac, but this is a noisy option. I'll be looking for a used household vac that I can conceal below the saw as a dedicated (and quieter) source of suck.
M
New Zealand | New Thinking
I'd also assumed I would only have the vacuum on for some operations, but thinking about general use, I can see this as a useful addition to my normal dust collection system - sweeping the top of the saw clean.
Also, this approach does away with the need to push items to be sawn against the fence. With a slider, that means I just have to fix items to the slider, and propel them through the blade. Suction keeps them firmly attached to the fence. No deflection of the fence. Better cut quality.
Edit: this only makes sense if you know how a slider workes. The fence in this operation functions more as a stop!
Maybe I need to post some photos - although Bill Lindau's photos do explain.
Malcolm
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/24/2005 5:23 am ET by kiwimac
> this only makes sense if you know how a slider workes <
Here's Bill using his vacuum fence. Note how his fence acts as a stop - he moves the wood against the fence and pushes it thru. Vacuum keeps the unsawn/partly sawn/sawn offcut firmly against the fence during this operation. Each slice is the same thickness, there's no messing about between cuts, and it's safe.
The difference between me and Bill is that I would place the wood to be cut against the fence, lightly clamp it to the slider, and push the slider through. The slider pushes, the fence holds.
Bill's photo seems to have inflated! Go back to Tools for the original?
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/24/2005 6:00 am ET by kiwimac
A carpeted box and/or a muffler for your shop vac might eliminated the need for yet another appliance.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Now that you're a vacuum expert, here's a question for you. A couple of years ago, I bought a vacuum clamping jig at a woodworking show. It seemed like the best thing since sliced bread; just hook it up to your compressor, and away you go. Well, when I tried it in my own shop, the damn thing made my compressor run almost continuously, which was enough of a PIA that I set it aside and haven't used it since. Is there some easy solution to this problem?I am still curious how they managed at the demonstration -- since their compressor certainly wasn't running a lot (at least that I could hear). The clever buggers must have had it in another room, and ran a 100' hose to their demo!"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
"Now that you're a vacuum expert, here's a question for you"
Ha! In my day job I'm a politician - we specialise in sucking up! But in the workshop, I'm a learner, just like you.
Like I said above, I originally expected to just use a vacuum fence only occasionally, but may well have it helping out quite a lot of the time. That being so, a noisy shopvac may not be the best source of suck.
I notice that the people who sell vacuum veneer presses say 'no compressor required' and seem to package a box (which I presume is a small vacuum pump), with their magic plastic bags and hoses.
Maybe that's the answer - a nice, quiet, unobtrusive little pump?
Where are the real experts!?
Malcolm
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/25/2005 1:57 am ET by kiwimac
There's a shot I forgot - the plug at the clamp end of the fence. I used a piece of kitchen cutting block (not sure what the composition of this plastic is, but it's surprisingly useful) cut slightly oversize and just banged in.
Malcolm
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/25/2005 5:11 am ET by kiwimac
One thing to keep in mind with vacuum pumps and venturi pumps is keeping dust and debris out of them. Which is why the shop or household vac powered versions seem to be a good idea, less fragile for the tablesaw fence. But for vacuum clamps or presses then the amount of vacuum (clamping) you get does enter the equation.There is a site, joewoodworker I think, that has a lot on information on shopbuilt vacuum presses. I built a press from a kit and it works well, venturi pump. But it does take at least a 30 gallon air tank to work the venturi long enough evacuate a 4 x 6 bag.That was one of the most common gripes from our foreman was keeping the filters clean on our vacuum presses.Edited 4/25/2005 6:43 pm ET by adastra
Edited 4/25/2005 6:44 pm ET by adastra
Seems like a modification of the vacuum fence might be good for dust collection at the router. When routing the bottom edge of stock, the dust just shoots out to the left of the moving wood. I'm envisioning a slot at the bottom of the fence, or a series of holes, that would allow the dust to get sucked into a hollow fence and then into the DC or vacuum.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"... a modification of the vacuum fence might be good for dust collection at the router ... I'm envisioning a slot at the bottom of the fence, or a series of holes, that would allow the dust to get sucked into a hollow fence and then into the DC or vacuum"
Yes. I was looking at my router fence last night (the suction from my saw fence runs right past the end of the router fence) and thinking about that. I currently have a piece of 1 inch oak as my fence. I figured I could route a slot in the back of the fence, cap it, seal one end, drill some holes in from the face, and take the suction out the other end. One problem will be bridging the half-circle gap where the cutters protrude through the fence.
Thinking about that, but not technically difficult.
You'd want to engineer a suction router fence to do 2 things:
(1) hold the work piece firmly either side of the cutter
(2) Catch and remove dust. I often use fairly large cutters, by the way, and at slowish speeds, and get shavings rather than dust. They'd need a decent-sized tube to move dowen, or you'd be forever clearing them out.
I currently have a hood over my cutters, attached to the back of the fence, and connect my DC system to that. Removes most of the fine dust, but not the stuff that shoots forward along the fence.
Thinking ....
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
Have to confess, I was only considering dust collection, not vacuum hold, in which case only the left side of the fence is involved. I have a vague feeling that the physics of the router cutter and fence, especially a large one, might be different from that of the saw blade and fence and may be challenging to a vacuum hold.
"...get shavings rather than dust. They'd need a decent-sized tube to move dowen, or you'd be forever clearing them out." If looking at DC only, how about a slot at the bottom of the fence, allowing the shavings to get sucked in through the front of the fence? Would work for most stock, but not skinny stuff, obviously. Like so:View Imageforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Like so:View ImageThat's what I imagined, but I'd go for slots or holes, to maintain full support of the workpiece. Holes are potentially better because they don't snag the way a rectangular recess would.
I'll take some photos of my existing setup this afternoon, showing a solution to the question: 'How would you apply suction to this fence?'
Can't see any reason why suction wouldn't work as a way of keeping workpieces snugged up against the fence, even tho the physics is different from a TS. A featherboard does the same job, but I don't like featherboards because they trap you in the cut. I always like to be able to back out, and a featherboard stops the retreat!
Malcolm
New Zealand | New Thinking
Here's the photos
Oops - about 10X too large!
If I get time later I'll replacde with smaller images
Sorry guys
M
New Zealand | New Thinking
Edited 4/30/2005 6:47 am ET by kiwimac
KM, since you were so kind as to take the pics, I've resized them for you. Cute little program allows me to resize in a batch: select the 5 pics en masse, resize all to 500 max width, bingo![Ooops, #1 is the original]forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks
This was intended to be an experimental fence, searching for an effective way to catch and remove the dust/shavings. So far, I haven't needed to make version 2, although I like Routerman's fence, shown in a current string in the Tools discussion.
My fence rotates around a pivot, which allows me to quickly make fine adjustmets. I have a steel rule bent around the pivot lock that allows me to make measured adjustments and reset to previous positions.
I notice Routerman has a dial gauge set up behind his, which presumeably allows adjustments down to a pretty fine increments.
I can feel version 2 coming on.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
> the damn thing made my compressor run almost continuously,
It sounds like you may have had a leak.
-- J.S.
It's a smallish compressor -- about a 2 gallon tank, as I remember. I know the hoses/compressor connections are fine. Do you think there might be a leak in the vacuum gismo?"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Yes, that could be the problem. You might find it with one of those smoke pen testers that the HVAC people use.
-- J.S.
Compressors generate a vacuum by means of a venturi effect thingy, which requires continuous airflow. If you have a compressor with a low CFM, then the pump will run all/most of the time.
Thanks for info. I would say that must be the problem, since the compressor I am using is a portable 2 gallon model really intended for nailers only."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Vacuume sucks!
Was in Dunedin today (http://www.cityofdunedin.com/cover.htm) and bought a cheap ($US40) household vacuum cleaner with adjustable vacuum pressure and a nice quiet motor. It's a compact wee machine that will squat under the slider arm, dedicated just to clamping duties, hardly noticed.
Also bought a dial guage. Interested in checking the parallelism between blade, slide and fence on my MiniMax!
Can't drive past that place - a giant showroom packed full of mostly Chinese direct-imported machinery. Interestingly, its damn cheap, but almost all really chunky cast iron. Every machine you can imagine, from high-end machine tools to tuck-under-the-arm wood lathes.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
" ...There's a shot I forgot ..."
This photo available at http://www.macpherson.co.nz
M
New Zealand | New Thinking
I was in NewZealand once.. I got sprayed inside the 'AirOPlane' going to Astralia.. LOL
We had to stay there for some reason.. NO.. I do not know why.. Policeman in the airport.. Like a 'Bobbie' USA spelling.. Sorry.. He was about 13 feet tall as I remember and dressed to the hilt! Nothing like our USA Policemen! He was COOL!
Something like out of a James Bond Movie.. I Loved it!
Hi Will
We do still spray visitors! Actually it's the bugs we're after. NZ takes biosecurity very seriously. We make a lot of our living from sending primary produce overseas and need to maintain our export channels. The ground beef (hamburger) you ate yesterday probably came New Zealand.
Before 9/11, being at the far edge of the world was a bit of a disadvantage. Now, it no longer is. Suddenly, Kiwi is cool.
MNew Zealand | New Thinking
HAY! I was OK with it.. I got animals I love too! Just thought the folks on the plane would say these folks will come on the plane and 'spray you'.. I thought it was kind of funny seeing that old lady grab ger oxygen bottle!
The ground beef (hamburger) you ate yesterday probably came New Zealand??
I thought all ya had was Mutton?
Edited 5/1/2005 7:28 am ET by Will George
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