I have a neighbor who had cleared some of his land and harvested several white oak logs. I have not seen them at this time but have been told they are all large, straight butt logs that are 8+feet in length (woods logs, not yard logs). I know a band mill that will saw them for me and I have a place to store and air dry the resulting lumber.
How do I determine the market price for these logs? I understand a “log scale” is used, but I have no idea how that works and if I should calculate an offer based on the log scale or some other measure. I have also been told the actual yield in bf of a log greatly exceeds what the log ‘scales at’. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.
P.S. I think I recall the mention of the timber scaling at over 1,000 feet. I don’t know what log scale they used.
Edited 11/15/2007 12:01 pm ET by K1500
Replies
Call the nearest mill that buys them and ask what they are paying. Your local arborists should know who buys small quantities of logs, because they often sell them. Also ask who locally hauls logs for hire and has a self-loading truck.
A thousand bf by one of the log scales can be contained in just one log. Your descriptions sound like more than that. You have to transport the logs to the mill for scaling and grading prior to determination of the final price, and if the mill is some distance a local sawyer with a portable mill may be a better option. For example, the mill price for Bigleaf Maple around here runs around $.45/bf by the Scribner Scale.
Edited 11/15/2007 12:22 pm by BobSmalser
In addition to what Bob stated, you can go to http://www.woodweb.com, and go down to the sawing and drying forum. Surf around a bit, and you will find a calculator for calculating the board feet contained in a log using three different methods of scale;
Actual yield depends heavily how the log is milled, also. Quartersawing is more wasteful than flat sawing, which is a little bit more wasteful than just log run, or through and through sawing.
Do know that right now, the sawing and milling industry is in a very serious depression, and log and milling prices are at extreme lows. In my learned opinion, you probably wouldn't want to pay more than $.25 per board foot in the log, scaled. Quality white oak logs are quite common depending on your location, and are literally a dime a dozen by me. The tree guys are cutting them into firewood or dumping them into the landfill, which I think is a crying shame. I can get all I want for free, if I don't mind loading up the bobcat and dumptruck and going to pick them up.
Jeff
Edited 11/15/2007 2:33 pm ET by JeffHeath
Thanks to both for the replys. I will checkout the site mentioned. I am also aware that (at least locally) the hardwood timber industry is in a recession. I hoped to pick the lumber up cheap (a form of hedging future price increases). The $.25/bf scaled gives me a good place to start. Thanks again and any more comments are welcome.
I have been doing my homework on the hardwood lumber industry for over 2 years, and was getting ready to start my own small hardwood business, selling bookmatched slabs and hard to find species to woodworkers. It will eventually be a nice addition to my existing woodworking business, as I love to collect hardwood. With everything in line, including figuring out which type of mill(s) to purchase and which brand of kiln to operate, I (very smartly, in retrospect) decided to wait this economic situation out. I spend alot of time reading several sawmilling forums and have seen the decline of the hardwood industry in North America sliding for the past year or so. For every sawyer claiming to be selling his/her lumber well, there are 20 sitting on large inventories of 30K to 50K board feet of hardwood lumber with little or no market for it, except at wholesale or to pallet manufacturers.
If you look around, you would be surprised at how many white oak logs that you could get for free, as long as you were willing to move them.
In my neck of the woods in Northwest Illinois, there aren't many sawyers. I've made several contacts over the years with excavators, builders, the local park district, and even the head grounds-manager of a local, heavily wooded golf course. I haven't ever had to pay for logs, and I get white oak, maple, cherry, and walnut quite frequently. A case of good beer or a bottle of scotch usually gets the job done, as they simply don't want to handle or haul the logs away.
Jeff
Jeff,
I was wondering what happened with your plans to start milling and selling lumber. I am now wondering why, if there are so many sawyers sitting on so much hardwood, the prices haven't come down. Do you know any in our area ( I live in south central WI) that need to unload some non-steamed walnut at good prices?
Rob
Rob
I'm still milling lumber, but I've put my selling aspirations on hold for now. After spending the last year or so talking to existing sawyers around the country, it was becoming more and more evident that they are not doing well as a group.
Several have had to sustain themselves by making railroad ties, construction lumber, and pallet lumber. Others businesses have perished, and the used sawmill market is flooded nationally.
I still have every intention of getting it going, but I'll wait for better economic times. The lumber I mill now is predominantly used in my furniture and cabinet business, and I have a few local friends who stop by for 6 or 7 boards of this or that, if you know what I mean, for their weekend projects.
I've just completed drying about 500 bf of black walnut (I hate steamed walnut also, and won't use it!), but it's not for sale. I need it for upcoming commissions. If I hear of anyone with a nice wack of walnut, I'll let you know. How much do you need??
Jeff
Jeff,
I dont "need" any. I am however, always on the look out for unsteamed walnut. You know why obviously. I would be willing to travel to your area for 50 or 100 bd/ft of good stuff. I kind of sound like a junkie there dont I? Oh well, I guess its better to be a walnut junkie, than be addicted to other things. :-)
Rob
Rob
Looking at your profile I see you are up Wisconsin. There's a ton of incredible oak to be found in your area. When I was doing some post and beam work in the 1970's the oak from your area was the tightest stuff we came across. Years later, I bought some figured maple from Wis or Minn and it was eye candy. Haven't seen too much walnut that was from your area but that cold weather slows down the space between annual rings and gives you that tight dense hardwood.
Here in NC and Virginia we have a good bit of pretty walnut but it grows pretty darn fast. Just the difference in the walnut from central NC up to eastern Penn is really different. Look carefully and take advantage of the indigenous stuff. Its out there.
Recent find. Waited a couple months and worked with a man in Virginia.
Good Luck
dan
JeffHeath
You mentioned that sawmills have been selling railroad ties, and pallet wood simply to move inventory. I know that's true. Fire wood, construction lumber etc. offer some great bargins.
In the rush to turn trees into cash some great wood escapes their attention.. I bought some black walnut that was headed for the pallet mills and was amased at the quality of wood involved.. Sure some of it was flawless FAS planks but the great stuff was the fiddleback, crotch, and burls in that stack..
A very interesting discussion it seems like the decline in the wholesale prices has not hit the retail prices in my area (San Francisco Bay area)Troy
Troy
Retail outlets for hardwood CAN'T sell for less. Like almost all businesses, the rising cost of fuel is driving the cost of everything up. Operating fuel driven forestry machines, and sawmills, and trucking are all costing more today than they were 3 years ago. This has undoubtedly driven up the expenses for every business out there, especially those specializing in selling hardwoods to woodworkers. If they drop their prices, they will be losing money. It is more likely that with less volume being sold, you will probably see an INCREASE in the cost per board foot of hardwood lumber. If fixed expenses stay the same, or increase, and sales volume goes down, then profit margin (as a percentage) has to increase in order for that business to stay in business....
That's why as woodworker's, it's always best to try and find the smaller sawmills in your area. Usually, they will be able to offer much better pricing, and if you find someone who know's what he's doing, the quality of wood, as well as the selection of hard to find items like large slabs, bookmatched flitches, crotches, etc...... will be much better.
In Chicagoland (where I'm near) one of the larger suppliers of hardwood is Owl Hardwood in Des Plaines, Il. Their prices are, to me at least, rediculous. If I purchased lumber from them, they'd be taking a fair chunk of my profits. This is why I have been able to sustain and mill my own lumber supply for about the last 10 years or so. The money I've saved not paying retail has probably put my 2 kids through college.
Jeff
Thanks for your reply out here on the right coast (looking south of course:) Quality lumber even in more rural areas is expensive I don't think we have the sources for Oak,maple and cherry like you do in the midwest. Another thing you sure are right about fuel and transit cost. Anyway every place in the country has its advantages. I can get just about anything I want in the bay area but sure do pay a premium for it.Take careTroy
troys,
I can attest to the low prices paid for hardwood.. and the high prices retailers are charging..
if you understood how many hands touch a piece of wood from the forest to the lumberyard you'd understand in part why prices are where they are..
Retailers know that you have been willing to pay silly prices and don't want to discourage you simply because they are flooded with inventory.. to get the great prices you have to stop buying a few boards at a time and buy a whole lift at once.
I know that you won't ever use that much wood in your lifetime but maybe some of your friends ould like to buy whardwood for a tiny fraction of the retail price,.
I already have storage issues:) my wife would kill me if I showed up with a lift of walnut. I do understand the difference between wholesale and retail as well as the geographic factor but I still get wood envy when I hear the less than 1 dollar a board foot prices for nice hardwoods. Oh and have you ever tried shellac:) just kidding I appreciate all the tips you have given on this site I also think it is a very underrated finish. ThanksTroy
troys,
three words, rental storage unit! OK I'm kidding but I store my black walnut outside and don't even cover it.. same with white oak..
Right , Frenchy, right. You store it outside uncovered because you have 5,00000 gazillion board feet that you got for $.003 per bd ft. I would store my lumber like that too. It would cost too much to try to cover it. Ha Ha Ha
Lee
mapleman,
actually I leave it uncovered not because I can't afford a few bucks for a tarp but because I think it's better for it.. Sure the top layer will weather a bit but since it's roughsawn that comes off as soon as I run it thru the planner. the wood an 1/8th inch below that is perfect!
No, the reason I leave it uncovered is because I don't want to trap moisture under a tarp. I do sticker it up (usually) and I do strap it over the stickers to prevent warping.
Please Note that I don't treat maple that way.. it comes inside and on stickers the day I bring it home.. Maple is too finicky. It's the only wood that I've lost some of during the drying process. I left it outside on the deck under a tarp and in the spring I threw away several hundred bd.ft. that had molded.. Some of it was really nice 20 inch wide stuff too all flawless white.. (or was)
The deal I got on my fiddleback maple was a similar deal. The sawmill thought it had a buyer for it at $5.00 a bd.ft. so they sorted out all the fiddleback stuff, put it on stickers and set it out waiting for the buyer to show up..(no tarp) a year later when he hadn't and the noticed this pile of black boards they offered it to me for only 10 cents a bd.ft. (and I could select which ones I wanted) I got a little over 1100 bd.ft. that was still nice and straight and hadn't molded or start to spalt. You can see some of it if you go to breaktime at 85891.1
Frency,
Ya killin me, man! Ha Ha ;)
Lee
mapleman,
Hey I'm proud! I've finally moved all of my wood indoors , Of course that means the vehicals will once again winter outdoors. I'll bet I'm close to having only 10,000 bd.ft. of wood left too so in two or three more years I might be able to regain some shop space for the cars.
Frenchy,
I have been meaning to ask you this for quite a while - any thoughts of selling some of that stash? Even if you got $1.00-$2.00 for the walnut you would make quite a return on your investment and you could keep all of the really prime boards as you were sorting to sell. Just a thought. Guys like me in BFE don't have access to nice lumber much less deals like the ones you come across. Even at $1.00 or so to ship per bf across country you would have no problems selling everything you wanted.
But, if you are like me then you are a whore for wood and won't let a scrap leave your shop. Ha Ha Ha
Cheers,
Lee
mapleman,
I let the scraps leave my shop. Some pretty big sized scraps as well.. In fact I usually take a pickup truck load a week to a guy who burns it in his fireplace..
At least I used to .. by mistake I had a few pieces of pine included and apparently sparks flew out and burned his carpet or something and now I'm looking for a new place for my black walnut, cherry, white oak, and maple scraps.
If you'd like my prices call Johnson Logging in Cannon Falls Minnesota and arrange for them to sell you stuff.. they're decent honest people and they are my prime source..
Thanks Frenchy for the tip - I may give them a call. Do you know if they will ship via freight?
Lee
mapleman
I don't know!They are a little over an hour away so I just pick up my wood from them.. You do know that it's rough sawn and fresh don't you?
PS they have a buyer who wants all of their black walnut so getting any now will be hard.
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