Replies

1. 
   Josh_Hill | Nov 22, 2000 11:09pm | #1

   *
   Hi, TAB:

   Oh goodness ... have I learned a valuable, and HUMBLING, lesson on experimenting. Think I know enough about finishing? Never again. You have turned on many, MANY lights for me.

   To address some very good points you brought up:

   The Linseed oil is new, and so is the Spar Varnish. I mixed them together because someone in a book somewhere referred to this as a good general mixture for finishing. It pops grain, richens color, and gives a depth and warmth that is wonderful. The problem is, the author of that essay said that he used varnish ... I added the "Spar" part myself (duh). He also said this is a good finish for wood ... not a topcoat for another finish. That was my bad, too. This may have actually worked had I just used stain on the wood, or just this stuff instead. But it doesn't work over the top of the Polyshades, that's for certain. Now that I've read the information you gave me, I know it wouldn't be great over the top of ANYthing except itself or raw wood. Live 'n learn, eh?

   You're right ... I suspected the oil content was the problem. The part that I didn't know (because I didn't read the label, dork that I am) is that Spar Varnish has more oil in it than other varnishes; that's how it stays flexible for outdoor use and why it cures more slowly. Finishing 101 ... but I guess I flunked. Ugh.

   There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the Poly under the homebrew; it's not perfect, because stain/poly combos aren't ... but it's acceptable. I just wanted an additional coat of something clear to help the process (protection, that is) along. When I figured out that MS, BLO and Varnish were the components of the General Finishes product "Arm-R-Seal" (roughly), I was ecstatic and decided to try and fashion some myself (because I love the look it gives wood). Folly atop folly ... I should have more carefully read about what I was doing.

   That, however, will not stop me from experimenting in the future. I will, though, take MUCH greater care in experimenting on wood that is going to be LIKE THE ACTUAL PROJECT, and not bare wood (unless that's the actual project) or the project itself.

   Thank you, graciously, for giving me the insider's view and information. To be sure, I will print this wonderful treatise and nail it to the door of my shop, covering it with layers of epoxy, that I will always see it and ne'er forget the err of my arrogance.

   By the bye ... you said you were "in the biz." Other than not making bone-head mistakes like this one, how does one get educated and trained to be "in the biz?" I wouldn't mind being in it myself, and I find finishing to be a FASCINATING science. I LOVE woodworking, but I can really get into the chemistry and left-brained orientation of the finishing side too. Any insights for a "wannabe?"

   Thank you again for posting, and I deeply appreciate your insight.

   Last thing (I promise): Since there's nothing wrong with the finish beneath this glop of mess I've poured on it, do I still need to strip it off? Can I clean the tacky goo off with Mineral Spirits and leave the stain/poly alone? I don't want to, and neither does my wife (for whom it was built) want me to. Thanks!

   God bless,
   Josh

   PS - Thanks, too, for letting me know about the Japan drier additive. I think I'll use regular, interior varnish instead of Spar and go from there ... this mixture will gently be labeled "raw wood only" and stored in the back of a big, metal cabinet. :)

1. 
   Josh_Hill | Nov 28, 2000 09:59pm | #2

   *Hi, T!Just as an update, I thought I'd let you know that the oily goo did finally dry, and in time for Thanksgiving to boot! The night that I posted, I went home to find the finish sticky-ish, but not liquidy any longer. By Thursday morning (Thanksgiving), it was fine. I hung the piece and my wife was exceedingly pleased!The only thing I can think of is that I put enough Mineral Spirits in the mess to help it dry faster (the Spar, that is). And, I wiped the last coat on ... I didn't brush it. In any case, there was no need to scrub the finish off and it looks terrific! What luck!I promise not to stop experimenting (and tempering that with a healthy dose of scrap wood and knowledge from experts), if you promise not to stop helping wannabe finishers like me learn and grow.Thanks, and I hope your holiday was blessed and happy!God bless,Josh

1. 
   Scott_Braun | Dec 07, 2000 02:36pm | #3

   *Josh,I've read about that Linseed/Varnish blend for years, as well, and have done a considerable amount of experimenting with different blends, oils, etc...I do 80% rubbed "oil" finishes on my pieces, so this is sort of my bread and butter.I've found that boiled Linseed does add richness to a surface, and darkens it in a pleasing way. However, I have stopped adding it to a blend. Linseed takes a long time to cure, and when building a rubbed finish, that's a pain in the ...Now, I put one coat of boiled linseed on first. Let it cure for a few days, a week or more if possible. Then I begin building up super thin coats of straight varnish (not spar, unless it's going outside!). I do thin the varnish, as I'm rubbing it on and frequently padding it like shellac. It gives me exactly the look I've been after all this time...I finally got wise and started making the mixture simpler and simpler until I realized that adding oil of any kind (watco, minwax antique, tung oil, etc...) was only making my dry time longer and not improving either the look or protection of my finish. What we used to call "the Mighty Mix" is no longer a "mix" at all!

1. 
   Josh_Hill | Dec 07, 2000 09:29pm | #4

   *Scott:Thanks for the information. I liked the idea of the oil look going on with some protection from the varnish, but after this disaster, I think I may try it a different way instead (the method you're describing sounds really cool).Additionally, the mess that I put on did a great job of evening itself out and balancing the stain beneath it, sealing up the surface, etc. But it would have been much wiser for me to make some wiping varnish and pad on a few coats ... or better yet, just put down some wiping lacquer (the top of the piece, which will receive any/all of the abuse it gets, is covered with Behr's Bar Top finish).Thanks for the tip ... I'm working on a second project here that may require a varnish-level protective coat ... so I'll give yours a try!Also, does anyone else know what happens if you mix varnish with naptha instead of MS? Does it dry faster/harder/better, or is it just another carrier with no benefits to speak of?Thanks in advance!Josh

1. 
   Bob_The_Boardman | Dec 08, 2000 12:28am | #5

   *JoshA good part of your problem has already been discussed, but as a word of caution & reference, spar varnish is not really recommended for indoor use. People tend to think that if a product will work on marine items it must be (take your pick) durable, good, resistant to anything, the best product around.The problem is that spar varnish works on boats and marine items because it has a high oil content. In order to work on these items the finish must be flexible enough to expand & contract based on varying weather, temperature & humidity conditions. Indoors however, that "flexibilty" means that the product won't "cure" to a hardened finish. It will always be a little on the "soft" side. While this gives a lot of homeowners fits, the product is actually doing exactly what it's been designed to do.Bottom line though: you tried something, you learned from it, and you're better off for the experience. That's a rough combination to beat.Good Luck,Bob

2. 
   Josh_Hill | Dec 08, 2000 12:42am | #6

   *Hi, Bob:Thanks for the kind words! You're absolutely right ... I can't beat the lesson(s) I learned by making such a huge mess. It taught me many things, not the least of which was to wear gloves during this process (yech!).I am one of the (foolish/gullible) people who thought marine products must somehow be superior. ARGH! Now I know bettah. Live 'n learn, just like you said.Thanks for the caution/advise ... believe me, I will take it to heart.God bless, and thanks for responding!Josh

3. 
   Gretchen_ | Dec 08, 2000 02:14pm | #7

   *Bob, with all due respect, satin marine spar varnish (not poly) is what my sister and I have used for 40+ years for all antique refinishing projects. It gives wonderful protection and partially for the reason that you gave--flexibility. It stands up to a lot of abuse and does not chip. I use a 50-50 mix wiped on--at least 8 coats for a top. It is a beautiful finish--alcohol and water impermeable and with a lovely deep glow. I am not sure what you mean by not curing--it definitely cures. The process originally came from a wonderful book about refinishing by Ralph Parson Kinney in the 50's.

4. 
   Bob_The_Boardman | Dec 09, 2000 12:01am | #8

   *TAB & GretchenIf the product works for you that's what counts. My point is that you can get the same (and arguably, better) results from regular varnish. It can be used in the same manner as you mention TAB, but rubbing out can be done in 2 weeks (although with reactive finish that polymerizes, the more time the better).With regard to your point Gretchen about wiping it on, the fact that you're diluting it and applying many thin coats is part of the reason you're obtaining good curing. With regular varnish I've found you can get the same results with only 4 -5 coats. Additionally, regular varnish is usually a little less expensive.In summary, both products give that warm glow you mention (and which I also agree with), but regular varnish sets up quicker, cures harder (while still maintaining flexibility), takes fewer coats, costs a little less, and (in my experience and opinion) rubs out better.But as I started off saying, thye bottom line is what makes you (or if applicable, the customer, happy).Bob

5. 
   John_Woods | Dec 16, 2000 08:18pm | #9

   *Hi you guys out there.I'm a Brit who thinks Fine Woodworking is the best thing since sliced bread. However, the old gag about the UK and The USA being separated by the same language is apt. One of the words which confuses me is 'varnish'. In the UK we have Yacht varnish, Polyurethane Varnish' Water Based Varnish etc. What do YOU mean by varnish ? when you talk about various finishes. I think I am being left out of the discussion.Any help will be appreciated.John

6. 
   Bob_The_Boardman | Dec 17, 2000 06:31pm | #10

   *John,Good question. The "Spar Varnish" we were discussing would be the equivalent to your Yacht varnish; lots of oil, UV protection, expands/contracts as the wood does outdoors.The term "varnish" usually means the oil based product that contains plasticized resins or poly. This is probably what you refer to as "Polyurethane Varnish".Water based, water borne or "WB" varnish is the same as your "Water Based Varnish".Hope this helps.Bob

7. 
   Sgian_Dubh | Dec 17, 2000 08:02pm | #11

   *John, A fellow Brit, eh. You're hardly left out. Varnish is varnish the world over. The products you are asking about are available in the UK of course. You just need to know where to go. I'm not currently living in the UK so my memory may be a bit rusty, but the average big box, such as Texas, B&Q, and Do it All, nor the local builders merchant or hardware supplier carry a wide range of polish supplies; just what they can sell to the average DIY'er.Check your local yellow pages for "polish suppliers," or "wood finishing" suppliers. Failing that Furniture & Cabinetmaking, and The Woodworker carry adverts from people such as Aaronson veneers, or Art Veneers , or Richard Barry, 01273 419471, or Crispin that I am pretty sure can supply what's needed. There are plenty more. I just picked a few handy ones. And don't forget John Boddie up in Yorkshire. I don't have a contact to hand for them. Also bear in mind that there is a difference between alkyd varnish and polyurethane varnish, and I generally prefer alkyd varnish for furniture work. Space and time is limited, so I'll not go into all the differences here. You could do a search on the topic in this forums archives.One or two useful translations for you.*Denatured alcohol = meths- the blue stuff.*Mineral spirits = white spirits or turps.*Turpentine in the US = genuine American gum turpentine in the UK.A British based forum that you can post questions at is The Woodworker and you might find this useful.Lastly, be careful regarding Fine Woodworking as "the best thing since sliced bread." the magazine is produced for an American market and makes no concessions to rules and regulations that apply in other countries. Many of the techniques described in the magazine are illegal in the UK; for example, table saw practices are very different where such tricks as the removal of the riving knife and crown guard, and the fitting of dado blades, and the fitting of a permanent long rip fence, etc., etc., is quite normal. All these tricks are proscribed by law in Europe as far as I know, and certainly so within the UK. Sliante.