Hi There,
I wonder if anyone can make a suggestion? The kitchen table I’m making is old white oak, and very pale, I’d like to keep it the same colour but really need a tough hygenic surface. It HAS to be able to be wiped down thouroughly, I’ve even taken a bullet out of an injured crow’s wing on my old one berofe now!! All the “clear” varnish that I’ve tried darken it tremendously, any thing I can do that would work?
The attached pic show’s the table’s current colour and a couple of bits of the same wood with “clear” varnish on them.
Lily.
Replies
Behlen makes what they call water white restoration varnish, that sounds like it would work for you.
Rob Millard
Thanks Rob, for such a quick answer too! I think I've seen that brand in Home Depot or Lowes!
It may be just the thing that will happen--the darkening--with nothing you can do about it. Wipe it down with mineral spirits--this is the color you will get with a clear finish--even waterborne varnish.
OK, well, I've wiped it down with "stuff" and it's still much paler than the minwax stuff! I've found a local stockist of the Behlin stuff and he's shipping it out to me tonight, so it should be here today or tomorrow!!
Meanwhile, when I wiped it down, all the little marks showed up where I'd planed it and missed sanding so I've fixed that, I've been sanding with a 60 grit paper, on a random O. sander, what else should I do to prepare it for the first coat of varnish? Also, it says in the magazine that I have to dilute the first coat and sand it in so that the slurry will fill any little holes, is that what you all recomend to do? If not, how should I prepare it?
Thanks,
Lily.
You won't find the Behlen Waterwhite restoration varnish in the Borg. But I also think you will find it is a long-oil spar varnish, which may not get as hard as you want for a kitchen table. Another alternative is Pratt and Lambert 38. It is an alkyd resin modifying a soya oil base, and is quite light colored. It doesn't even look amber in the can. Alkyd resin will probably darken a bit over the long term, but less than phenolic resin.
I found the Behlen varnish is a shop in Richmod, so I called them and they've mailed it out last night so it should arrive today or Monday I'd think! I plan to keep sanding with higher grade sand paper until it arrives! If it doesn't get hard enough for the horrors that I put a kitchen table through, can I put a harder one over the top without affecting the colour at the end? If not, can I harden it some other way? I've bought that varnish now so really will have to use it, but a table top in this farm ges all kinds of things happening on it! No good saying be careful with it, when things happen (like the wounded crow) I worry about things like tables later!
Lily.
Lily.
Any oil based varnish is going to impart an amber cast to the wood. While an alkyd resin/soya oil varnish will be quite light, it is still amber and will amber more over time.
If you want a finish that will impart virtually no color, it's hard to beat a waterborne varnish or poly varnish. In fact, these are so clear that amber dye is sometimes added to them to mimic a traditional oil varnish. The primary drawback is that most consumer grade waterborne poly varnishes are somewhat less durable than oil based products. They can also be damaged by prolonged contact with some chemicals in cleaning products.Howie.........
Having read all this I'm begining to get rather conused!! It seems that the best one for the finish that I want is the water one, but for the knocks and use that the table needs to take that varnish is not up to it! What would happen if I sealed and varnished it a few times with the water one, then go over that with a tougher one! If it cann't soak into the wood, will it be able to mess the colour?
Lily.
There are two things going on with the wood color. One is that the wood itself will naturally darken. Can't really stop that short of storing it in a vacuum in the dark. In addition, the resins and oil will also yellow over time. Many of the waterborne finishes have non-yellowing resins. Oil based varnishes will yellow even over the water base. To a certain extent trying to maintain the white unfinished color is a bit quixotic in my opinion.
In addition, oak is a very tricky wood to make look good. It looks good with an oil/varnish look that doesn't build a film. Building a film for protection without filling the pores can't tend to give sort of rounded off pores that look cheap or tacky.
Oak also looks good with filled pores and a film finish. However, oak pores are large and relatively hard to fill, but it can be done. To avoid darkening you might use a water based transparent filler. It will probably take two coats to get the pores filled. Then you can apply a top coat for protection. Target and Fuhr make coatings that have good reputations, perhaps not as bullet proof as oil based varnish. One source for these waterborne finishes is Jeff Jewitt's http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. You have to make the judgement as to how much importance to give to maintaining the light color as opposed to having bullet proof protection.
Me, I would put several coats of Watco on the table, and expect it to pick up the usual scars and stains of living. But thats not my call.
One thing that is important to do, is to make tests of the finishes you are planning to use, on scraps of the particular wood in the table. That's the only way to see what you think about how it looks.
Thanks Steve, and to just think, I was silly enough to think that MAKING it was the hard part!! Jus slapping some varnish on was the easy bit!! Just goes to prove, a little knowlage is a dangerous thing!! No putting a top coat of an oil ased one on there then! The normal scars of living seems to be a reasonable thing for it to aquire I think, as you say! Lily.
Just remember, using an oil/varnish product like Watco will result in one of the more amber/yellow colors of all finishes. The product contains linseed oil which is very yellow. The advantage to this type of finish is that it is fairly easy to repair/renew.
However, if you still are looking for a non-yellow or non-yellowing finish, a waterborne poly varnish will do it for you. While slightly less durable than an oil based varnish, it is more durable than a Watco finish.
As you are seeing, there are a number of finishes to chose from. Each has pluses and minuses. You need to match the finish to the job you want it to do being aware of the negatives as well as the positives.
Howie.........
I am SO amazed that there are SO many options, I always thought that I went into a shop, chose the colour varnish/stain that was closest to what I'd like and that was that!! Oh boy, WAS I ever wrong!!
Lily.
I think you need a lot more sanding. 60 is pretty coarse. Go on up through 80, 120, to 180. And the wiping down with mineral spirits or denatured alcohol will continue to reveal any mars. It will also show you the color with a clear finish.Gretchen
Thanks Gretchen
That's what I wondered! I'll carry on sanding when I've fed the horses if I've not frozen to death out there this morning!
Lily.
Do your final sanding with a block and with the grain.Gretchen
OK, will do! Thanks!
I would use a superblonde shellac. It will alter the colour the least and is a very tough surface plus it is easy to repair. If you don't have faith in Shellac then use it as a sealer coat and use what ever finish you think is more durable. The seal-coat of shellac will prevent the oil from penetrateing and darkening the wood.
Mike
Sorry, but this is a kitchen table, as I read it. Shellac will just not work for that use.Gretchen
Why do you say that? Just curious.
Mike
Shellac is totally non-waterproof. Any water on the table will spot it.Gretchen
I have shellac on my dining room table. It doen't see daily use, perhaps once per week or two, if it did I wouldn't have finished it this way. The finish (Shellac) is waterproof. A drop of water does not spot it. It hasn't happened to my table, but I have seen a mixed drink spill on a console table finished with Shellac and the alcohol clouded the finish almost instantly, but water or milk don't seem to bother it.
My vote would have been just to use a water based poly, but I'm a little interested in this behlen product. Be sure to let us know how it works.
Oh, and sand past 60 grit. In my experience 180 is enough for oak.
Well, the Behlen varnish arrived, I tried it on a scrap piece of wood, and hey, it's darker than the Minwax! One thing a friend pointed out though, that wood has been a fence board for about 80 years, if it hadn't been treated with anything (most likely engine oil) then it would have rotted years ago! I've planed it and sanded it, but would there still be some residue there? I am begining to think that the Minwax poly is as good as anything, there does seem no way to keep it that really pale colour! I'll just have to paint the walls white around it then it'll be OK I suppose!
I cann't keep on buying ad trying different products, not only will it break the bank, foaling starts next April and I'd like to have this project out of the way for the sleepless nights!
Lily.
A good way to start an argument is to collect two or more knowledgeable people together and ask them:
:-)
I have a poly finish on a "temporary" island top in our kitchen. I think it has only one coat (complete with the odd holiday). I don't think it looks any different today than it did when I put it in place 8 or so years ago. Oh, a couple of dings from using the paper cutter on it, but the colo(u)r ;-) appears the same. The one warning if you go this route is that numerous times printed materials have 'stuck' to the surface...
Oh, I forgot two.
Edited 11/22/2005 4:21 pm ET by EdHarrow
My vote would be to use one of the water-based finishes, which impart almost no color change at all. Use several coats though, for it is a thin finish. OR you can use an oil or oil varnish. You will get some color change, but it might look nice. You might also get some dings, but you should be able to repair them easily. I also don't think shellace would work out well on a kitchen table.
Don't forget to seal the underside of the table. You don't want it moving around after all the work you have put into it.
Dave
What do you mean? Why will it move if I don't put varnish under it? I've only planed and sanded the top of the boards, the underside is as it came in from being a fence.
Wood shrinks when it dries, and swells when it gains moisture. A finish slows the flow of moisture, so when one side is finished and the other isn't both sides don't react in the same way and there is a tendancy for the wood to cup. In the humidity of summer a table top will be significantly wider than after a winter in dry heated homes. It must be allowed to adjust to accomodate the movement--otherwise things may break--in particular table tops may split. Having finish on both sides reduces, but does not eliminate this seasonal effect.
So I don't need to make a fuss, just coat it in the same varnish as I do the top in?
Yes, that's the best--the goal is balance.
Rather than poly, why not go to a "real" paint store and get a non-poly varnish. It's depth and "feel" is so much nicer. Waterlox original is a non-poly wiping varnish that will make a very pretty finish.Gretchen
Wiping Varnish is the best.. If ya not happy.. Green Scotch pad.. Scuff around a bit.. Lookin' for flaws... Scratch a bit more.. FINALLY what ya want!
A few insights from my experience. If you want a ggod read on finishes find a book entitled "brightwork, the art of finishing wood" by Rebecca J. Witman She discusses the history, techniques, and order of finishing with oil and varnish. Nice pictures to boot. If you wanted a white look to your table you might want to look into "piclking the finish; using a pigmented varnish that is buffed off just after it sets. There are products made by a few companies that use a catalyst, Two part Urethane. I believe minwax makes a version. Epifanes, a varnish maker that makes products for the boating world, makes a superior two part urethane. Their website is http://www.epifanes.com There are also sources for two part urethane for wood floors. Clear as glass, non yellowing, and you can put eight coats in on night. I believe Glista is the manufacturer. Nice thing about water based urethanes is the lack of volatile organic compounds, read no respirator, no fumes in the house. I have had good luck with these, just add a few coats every few years.
I have been in touch with our local paint shop! They are going to see if they can get the waterlox varnish you mentioned. I'm waiting for them to phone now to find out!
Thanks.
Lily.
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