On my last veneering project, I used the traditional hide glue and hammer veneer method. This worked fine, but it’s messy and time consuming. My current project involves veneering plywood (so I can have oak cabinets with a maple interior), and I don’t want to go the hammer veneer/hide glue route.
I’ve heard bad things about using contact cement for veneering. What about these 3M spray adhesives that some vendors recommend for veneering? Or can you tell me what is your favorite veneer adhesive?
thanks
Paul
Recommending the use of “Hide Signatures” option under “My Preferences” since 2005
Replies
Paul,
To answer the question about favorite veneer glue, mine is hot hide glue exactly as you have used, or white wood glue, left to dry, then heat activated with an iron. Yellow glue can also be used and the waterproof varieties work, but they need much higher temperatures than white glue.
Hide glue and heat-activated white glue are considered as "permanent" a veneer glue as exists. Permanent, in the sense that, barring water damage or exposure to enough heat, applied properly, the veneer will stay ahered "forever" (or at least for many human lifetimes). And of course, repairs can be made using heat and water in experienced hands.
Contact cements can also work very well and they can allow veneering on curved surfaces that might be impossible using other methods. But the rap against them is that they can allow the veneer to creep, they lose adhesion, etc. Various environmental factors such as heat, moisture, some other chemicals, can affect the bond.
I've seen examples of fine furniture veneered with contact cement that have lasted more than 50 years with absolutely no problem. But I've also seen a lot of bad jobs. I have no recommendation about any particular spray adhesive. "Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance."
Rich
Iwould NOT use the spray adhesivie. I made a jewelry box that got screwed up and needed to put come veneer on as a patch (needed to cover everythinig ... you don't need the story). As a test, I cut four pieces that were about an inich wide to cover the part of the bottom that mated wiith the top (the sides of 3/4 iinch wide boards). I got sidetracked on other projects, and when I got back I could liiterally just pull off the four pieices that were applieid wtih the spray adhesivie. It just didn't hold.
John
Paul:
I used Titebond Cold Press Veneer glue. http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=5054&refcode=05INFROO for gluing 1/4" luan and ash veneer together. You need good clamping pressure or vacuum bag system to get a good bond. It sets up in about 15 to 20 min depending on the temperature. Has a good bond and a very hard glue line which is a dark brown color.
Hope this helps. Steve
I like Better Bond as available here:
http://www.veneersupplies.com
Great stuff, and it sticks far better then hide glue. Also, if you've got a big project, get a vacuum press. You'll never regret the expenditure. It's great to take a project out of the bag, scrape the tape trim the edges and be done with it.
have used fish glue from lee valley,worked very well. With very little bleed through.
Applied it with a foam roller,would use it again.
Does anyone ever use a U.F. (plastic resin) glue?
I use plastic resin adhesive for veneering. The three that I have tried are:
National Casein - powder which you mix with water, very thin and takes about 24 hours to set.
DAP Plastic Resin - powder which you mix with water. Followed manufacturers instructions and ended up adding more water because it had the consistency of damp flour. Finally mixed it to where it had the consistency of peanut butter and it is impossible to spread with a brush or roller. Really need to use a notched trowel. For testing, I tried thinning it down further and it wouldn't bond well. I am interested in others experience on this - maybe I just got a bad batch.
Unibond 800 - liquid with a powder catalyst. A blocker is available to minimize bleedthrough. I really like this stuff as it can be applied with a roller or brush. Bonds extremely well.
Steve
"Does anyone ever use a U.F. (plastic resin) glue?"
Yep - Unibond-800 and Weldwood plastic cement are the ones I've used the most; seems that adhesives suitable for multiple-lamination glue-ups work pretty well for veneering as well.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 9/25/2005 10:08 pm ET by jazzdogg
I know I didn't post this, but thanks for the responses about u.f. I've mostly used p.v.a. for laminations (flat) and veneering resawn woods. I've just recently purchased some u.f. and so far have been impressed with the performance. Pulled good wood on test pieces when I tried to separate them and I like the way it hardens to a non-flexible state.
Edited 9/26/2005 2:14 am ET by Danceswithwoods
You're right, of course: there are applications where glue creep isn't an issue, but gluing-up bent laminations and veneering don't seem to be among them.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Gee what happen to the ALL selection...???clamping pressure than a vacuum press (which can only achieve about 10 psi).A real Question here.. I thought if you removed most of the vacuum you got Atmosphere presser Is that 10 PSI?Stupid here!
Per Tage Frid's book, I just use yellow glue. The piece goes between two pieces of 3/4 MDF, with wax paper to keep any glue squeeze-out from sticking to the MDF and a bunch of cauls clamped in place. Works pretty well on flat surfaces, and I'm pretty sure it get much higher clamping pressure than a vacuum press (which can only achieve about 10 psi).
Yeah, but 10 psi is about a Volkswagen per squre foot ;)Steve
True, but it is still far less than what the adhesive manufacturers recommend. Even for its veneer glue, Titebond specs ~250 psi. I guess it works because the bond really isn't under much stress.
I don't think woodworking vacuum pumps can pull a very good vacuum, so most ofthe specs I've seen for them are around 10 psi. But 14.7 is theoretical maximum.
Sorry to butt in, but couldn't resist. You need to compare apples to apples, yea you can get 250 psi for the 1 square inch that are the clamp pads, but if you throw a caul in there to spread that force out over 100 sq. in. (10" x 10") you are going to get 2.5 psi., assuming you can get even distribution of pressure.
A vacuum bags glue bond is far superior to any clamp I've ever used, because it is a consistantly even clamping job. Plus you can get more pressure then possible with a sane # of standard clamps.
Steve
First off, I didn't really intend to start a clamp-vs. vacuum press war. My main point was the observation that neither one, in a non-industrial setting, produces anywhere near the adhesive manfacturers' recommended pressure, at least for the aliphatic-type glue. Yet things seem to work.
On the specific analysis, the clamps I usually use are rated for 1000 lbs. nominal. Use more than one every 100 sq. inches, and the average psi on the piece will be higher than for the vacuum bag. This is not an unreasonable number of clamps for a piece that's not too large.
As for getting even clamping pressure, that's just a matter of proper engineering of the cauls and the pressure distribution system. Since you don't know how much time on the Finite Element Analysis software my caul design spent ;) , I think it's difficult to accurately comment on how effective the design would be.
I'll agree that a non-engineered implementation is more likely to yield even pressure on the 'bag. And certainly on a non-flat piece, the vacuum bag is much simpler than clamping. But with the expense of the bag systems, and the fact that they both produce about the same performance on flat work (vis a vis the glue vendors' recommended pressure), I don't see a big need to abandon the clamp method for flat work.
Barry, fun to debate this isn't it? First, vacuum presses don't have to be expensive. I've got $400 into mine. You can see the details on the "Why I Love Woodworking" thread. It dosen't take long at all to get $400 worth of clamps. My system is a system that is widly available, and can be seen at http://www.veneersupplies.com .
I just built a sleigh bed, and to try to do it without a vacuum bag would have been a huge pain. Not impossible, the Seymours didn't have vacuum bags, and I can only dream of reaching that level, but incredibly difficult. You also agree that the vacuum press is better in none flat instances.
Now, the flat stuff. Your clamps will work just fine, as long as you do it right, which you no doubt do. You said to use more then one clamp per 100 sq. inch, so for the sake of argument, let's say your veneering the front panel of the average receptioniest desk. Say 4' x 5'. That is 2880 sq. inches. Your going to use at least 29 clamps to reach the "more then one per 100". Now, your clamps beter cost less then $13.79 each, or the vacuum press beats you right there. Now assume you got one heck of a deal on a truck load of clamps, but you still have engineer a caul system. Luckily you've got the sofware. The materials for the caul setup are not free, and they take a while to set up. Now you can press. All you have to do is be able to tighten 29 cheap clamps before the glue dries, which means you hire a helper, taxes, workers comp, FICA, carpel tunnel.....
Now lets compare a vacuum press. You stick the glued substrate and veneer sandwich into the bag on top of a platen and tighten the closure, then flick a switch. Quick even pressure, and more of it then 29 clamps could apply.
For that example I used, my vacuum press will apply a total of about 43,000 lbs of pressure to the work piece. To match that with clamps you will need 43, 1000 lb. clamps. The cheapies will not yield 1000 lb, so there are the economics in the favor of the vacuum press again. Of course, do what works for you, but I think this makes it easy to see the appeal of vacuum pressing.
Have a good evening,
Steve
Thanks for the input; until I have the space and bucks for a vacuum bag system, I need other options.
What I used this time was PVA (yellow glue) using the iron-on method. This worked great. For those who haven't tried the method, see FWW #108. A quick summary of the process is:
trim veneer to about 1/8" too big in all dims
seal the veneer surface you will be glueing with a quick coat of shellac. dry.
mist water on the face side (non-glue side) of the veneer
spread glue on the veneer and substrate using a small roller
let dry 30 minutes or more (but less than 72 hours)
iron on the veneer using the highest heat setting
I spread the glue using a small $3 roloer from HD, then let the veneer and substrate dry for about an hour. This method worked great in my hands and by cabinet insides are now veneered!Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Just to add to the arguement for vacum pressing. Once you have a vacum pump provided you get the right kind you can use it for vacum clamping.Peter
True. Some day I'm going to get set up for that, are you?
Steve
4'x5'? Yup, that's way bigger than anything I'd attempt with clamps. ;)
I want to butt in also--10psi is 1440 pounds per square foot. Your lousy vacuum pump supplies the 10 psig and the atmosphere supplies the pressure evenly over the entire surface(s) inside the press. Hard to beat thaat with clamps!
10 pounds per square inch times 144 square inches per square foot is 1440 pounds.
Works pretty well on flat surfaces, and I'm pretty sure it get much higher clamping pressure than a vacuum press (which can only achieve about 10 psi).
Actually it is 14.7 pounds per square inch. The magic of a vacuum press is its perfect distribution of pressure. There is no feasible way to perfectly spread the pressure exerted buy a clap in one spot over an area greater then several square inches. The result being, even if you use a massive # of clamps, say one per 100 square inches, not only will you get a range of pressures over that area, you won't have the pressure a vacuum clamp can apply. BTW, 14.7 psi from a vacuum press is exactly what an M1 Abrahms tank puts to the ground.
Steve
use anything but contact cement. it bleeds through thin veneer. you cant finish with solvent based products when you sue solvent based contact cement. heat, even from sunlight can cause bubbling. Instead, try PVA glue, unibond 800, epoxy or even plastic resin. Next you will need to understand clamping with these products and largely vacuum pressing is the way but a platen press can work well also. Good luck. aloha, mike
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