Replies

1. 
   hammer1 | Feb 10, 2007 09:44pm | #1

   You have to use an iron to re-heat an area at a time.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

2. 
   Rich14 | Feb 10, 2007 10:26pm | #2

   lare,

   It sounds like you are doing a number of things wrong. Are you using a veneer hammer method?

   First, it sounds like you are preparing your hide glue too thin. "Latex paint" consistency sounds too liquid. It should be somewhat more viscous (see below). Here are two ways to prepare it:

   1. Place a quantity of crystals or pearls in a cup and add cold water an inch higher than the glue . Allow to sit at least an hour, preferabley overnight. The glue will absorb the water and become a gelatinous mass. Pour off the excess water. The gelatinous glue can either be used immediately or put in the refrigerator and used later.

   2. Add dry glue to a container, about 3/8" deep and just cover with water (about an equal amount of both). The glue will absorb the water and become gelatinous.

   Put the gelatinous glue in a glue pot or in a glass jar set in a water bath in a "slow cooker" ($15-20 at Target). Bring to 140-145 degrees. Don't overheat - it weakens the glue. Use a thermometer. The hot glue should just run off a bush in a steady stream. If it drips, it's too thick or cold. If too thick, add a little water, too thin, add crystals. Stir well.

   For veneering, the glue is spread on both the substrate and the veneer. It's a little messy and requires a little bit of learning how to handle, but is the best way to veneer. The top side of the veneer will need to be made wet before glue is spread on the back, or the glue will make it roll up into a tube. Use a spray bottle to wet the veneer. You will need to experiment a bit how long before applying glue you should do the wetting. It depends on the thickness and type of wood.

   The glue should not be so thin that it disappears into the substrate as you have experienced. But if the substate is very pourous, consider that first, rapid-drying application a glue size, and apply a second glue coat as the actual adhesive layer.

   The glue will begin cooling and loosing its liquid state the instant you apply it to substrate and veneer, but you should have plenty of time to "hammer" it down with the veneer "hammer," which is really a firm squeege. The glue will get all over everything, including the top surface of the veneer, your hands and any tape if you have taped veneer pieces together. That's a normal part of the process. It gets sanded or scraped off the veneer surface later.

   Rich

   
   

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/10/2007 2:38 pm ET by Rich14

3. 
   BigNat | Feb 11, 2007 12:54am | #3

   Lare,

   I second the opinion regarding using an iron to re-heat the glue. Just apply your glue, <i>lightly</i> moisten the face surface of the veneer and apply it to the substrate. Heat a manageable area of the veneer until it feels hot to the touch, set the iron aside and commence hammering (with the grain. A zig-zag pattern is said to help). Hammer the surface until the area cools. Repeat until the entire surface is done.

   You can lay veneers with hide glue without an iron, but it's tricky. You need to warm the substrate and veneer before applying the glue, make sure your glue is as hot as possible, apply the glue, quickly moisten the face of the veneer, apply and hammer. Chances are you'll need to iron afterwards because it's really tricky the first few times.
   Haste is the by-word on this one.

   One caveat with the iron is to make sure it isn't too hot. You don't want it to generate steam when you apply it to the surface. Steam can make the veneer stretch and when it dries out, your joints can open.

   Nat,
   For what it's worth.

4. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 11, 2007 01:09am | #4

   Another thing to consider is the temperature of the room and the substrate.  Warm is definitely good.  This is the time to see the red on the sides of the wood stove. 

1. 
   lare | Feb 11, 2007 01:28am | #5

   Thanks for taking the time to help. Now, if I can just figure out where the wife left the iron. She'll never know I used it or even miss it. Thank you.

5. 
   hammer1 | Feb 11, 2007 01:32am | #6

   Charles Hayward describes the consistency of the glue, "glue should be made up fresh, glue that has been heated up many times loses it's virtue. It should be free of all lumpiness and all foreign matter. When hot, the brush should be raised a few inches from the pot, the glue should flow down without breaking into drops."

   Both the substrate and veneer are covered with the glue evenly. Press into place, lightly dampen the veneer surface and heat with an iron to activate the glue. Hammer down. You have to keep the iron heat fairly low so you don't burn the veneer. I've used a clean Turkish towel dampened but I don't like hammering.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 11, 2007 02:17am | #7

   lare,Lots of good advice.I'll continue to encourage using the hammering technique, and the warm iron as just a touch up for problem areas, if any.A warm workplace is a MUST. Heating the substrate with a hair dryer is not a bad idea. A warm substrate will keep the glue softer, longer.Keep a bucket of warm water and towel nearby. Cold water won't remove hide glue, but warm water takes care of it, and you WILL need it (sticky fingers!). Set the iron in a shallow dish with water in it so the sole is slightly immersed, otherwise you will get globs of hard, dry glue stuck (and I mean STUCK) to the sole.Be sure to wet the veneer before applying glue to it. When that dry veneer rolls into a tube with wet glue on it, you will use expletives you didn't even know you knew. Some veneers need both sides wet, and it's not a bad idea to re-wet the face of the veneer after you place it down with its glued back into the glue on the substrate.Some workers spread some glue on the surface of the veneer to further prevent curling and provide lubrication for the hammer. Yes, on the surface! It all comes off later and will NOT stain the wood.DON'T forget to veneer the back side of the substrate.And the best advice of all - get a good book on veneering. One of the best I know is, "Veneering, A Foundation Course," by Mike Burton, Sterling. It's a VERY easy read, and Mike has such a conversational style, you'll feel you've carried out his instructions before actually doing it. It's profusely illustrrated.Veneering and especially using hot hide glue to do it sounds so complicated and messy that most people won't even try it, or give up early, trying. It's one of those activities that requires you to experience, fail, and learn, then finally have that "a-ha" moment when it all comes together. For all its scary and messy-sounding characteristics, it's really very easy and pleasant.Rich

   Edited 2/10/2007 6:21 pm ET by Rich14

6. 
   RMillard | Feb 11, 2007 05:47am | #8

   It sounds like your work area may be too cold.

   You should also apply a thinned down coat of hide glue to the substrate the day before you do the actual veneering. This coat will help control the amount of glue absorbed by the substrate, and let you use glue that is thinner than if you haven't sized the substrate.

   If you go to the link below, you will see a couple of articles on hammer veneering.

   http://americanfederalperiod.com/detailed_construction_articles.htm

   Rob Millard