Replies

1. 
   DonC | Dec 31, 2006 09:25pm | #1

   Your choice of fiinsh is a good one. Yellow Titebond 3 glue or resoncinal glue on sanded wood are the best glues for exterior type glues.

   I wouldn't even mess with stripping. Just and off the old finish to raw wood.

1. 
   Joe_pinehill | Dec 31, 2006 09:47pm | #2

   thanks Don, but the old finish is cracked/flaking off, and at best would leave an uneven surface, and probably not a good surface to securely bond to.

   Edited 12/31/2006 1:51 pm ET by Joe_pinehill

1. 
   cadiddlehopper | Dec 31, 2006 11:43pm | #6

   Joe,If you can completely remove the old veneer, you will probably find a layer of what is called crossbanding under it. Its grain should be running at 90 degrees to your new grain. Glue the new veneer to that.Your glue must resist both heat and sunlight. The sort of glue used in exterior plywood comes to mind. I think it is called urea formaldehyde, but don't take my word on it. Epoxy might work. Why don't you consult a boat repair shop. They can probably supply the glue also.Cadiddlehopper

2. 
   jeanlou | Dec 31, 2006 10:05pm | #3

   As I read your post the thought came up as to which way the grain is running on the existing dash or the new substrate that you will be gluing to. Keep in mind that if the veneer is not crossbanded, i.e. the grain running in the opposite direction to the grain on the piece beneath it, the movement of the covered surface will tear your new veneer and show many splits over a relatively short time. You may need to first apply a short grain application before you apply the long grain finish you were talking about. 

   As far as glue is concerned, contact cement is flexible and will allow the veneer to creep...so is ordinary white or yellow wood glue. Plastic resin glue, resorcinol glue or urea based glues will not allow creeping. (there may be others)    JL

1. 
   Joe_pinehill | Dec 31, 2006 11:16pm | #4

   Is "creeping" good? does that minimize cracking?

1. 
   jeanlou | Dec 31, 2006 11:31pm | #5

   Creeping is when the veneer actually moves after the glue sets up. It is not desirable.

   When a glue remains flexible after it sets up, the surface wood will shift out of alignment when the materials move due to humidity and temperature changes.

   The cracking is not because of the creeping. When you glue a piece of veneer to another piece of wood, and the direction of the grain on both pieces is the same, as the piece under the top veneer expands and contracts, it will tear the surface veneer. This is where the cracking comes from. To avoid this, veneers are cross banded when they are glued up. That is to say that if the first piece is running left to right, then the next piece must run top to bottom and the next piece once more runs left to right...and so on.   JL

1. 
   cadiddlehopper | Jan 01, 2007 04:37am | #9

   Postscript to Joe:Rich14 & jeanlou are correct that if only the finish is cracked, that you need only do a refinish job. The old veneer is probably thicker, too, just as they say. If the veneer is in bad shape, I stand by my previous post. Good luck!Cadid

1. 
   Joe_pinehill | Jan 01, 2007 05:14pm | #10

   thanks for all the input. The old veneer doesnt show signs of cracking, but it is weather stained in a few places, where the finish has cracked, you see black lines running with the grain. I did have the same thought of removing the finish, then making the final decision on applying new veneer. Is there a way to remove the black stain line, (Im assuming its water stain.)

2. 
   jeanlou | Jan 01, 2007 07:34pm | #11

   Joe,

   Below is a link and a section of information available at the link below. It deals with wood flooring, but wood is wood and it is a good recipe. If you have never before used wood bleach you need to understand that bleaching removes not only the black stain but also the color in the wood adjacent to the black stain...anywhere that the bleach penetrates.. Use an artist brush and deal with the stained areas only. You will need to do some spot coloring of the bleached areas afterwards.

   This type of project quickly becomes more than we sometimes want it to be. Maybe you will find that the black stain does not take away from the character that an older piece of woodwork develops. Try Rich's suggestion: strip the finish, scrape and sand carefully and refinish. Question: Are you removing the dash to work on it or is it remaining installed in the car? Ideally, remove it so that you can use the lacquer thinner in abundance in a safe area. If it is remaining attached to the car, then you need to use all the products in a very different way, in order to protect the rest of the car.     JL

    

   http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hi_staining/article/0,2037,DIY_13932_2272512,00.html

    

   first sand the finish off the wood. Then attack the black mark with bleach. (But before you touch the bleach bottle, make sure you're wearing safety glasses and gloves.) Use a glass jar and an old brush. Pour the bleach into the jar, dip the brush in the bleach, and brush the bleach onto the stain. Let the bleach evaporate for a couple of hours and then come back and apply another round. Let it sit overnight.

   If the stain still isn't gone, step up your efforts with commercial wood bleach. First, moisten the wood with a damp sponge to allow the bleach to penetrate better. Then mix equal amounts of the two liquids that come with commercial wood bleach. Brush a liberal coat of the mix on the damp wood and let it soak into the wood. In a little while, it should start bubbling. It takes about four hours to see if you'll get results. Then make sure to neutralize the bleach. Mix two parts water to one part ordinary household vinegar. Dampen a sponge with the mixture, and rub back over the bleach.

3. 
   jeanlou | Jan 01, 2007 09:06pm | #12

   Joe,

   As I was peeling the potatoes for dinner I thought of something else to remove the stain. The product is called Oxalic Acid. I have used it in the past to remove blue and black stain from unfinished red oak before applying the finish. It is more forgiving than commercial wood bleach. Below is a link that I found via Google that explains what the product is, the safety rules associated with its use, and more info if you are so inclined.

   Happy New Year to you, Rich, Don and Caddidlehopper...and anyone else reading this string.   JL

    

   http://www.alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/oxalic_acid.html

4. 
   cadiddlehopper | Jan 02, 2007 12:55am | #13

   "Is there a way to remove the black stain line"That question is beyond my expertise. I would remove the finish then try sanding it very lightly. If that did not work, I would be at the same crossroads as you.Cadid

2. 
   Rich14 | Dec 31, 2006 11:43pm | #7

   Joe,No, "creep" is definitely not good. The result of creep is that your top layer of veneer could move out of position.But putting a new veneer layer on the plywood will unbalance it and could result in warping. The existing plywood has an uneven number of layers (plys), including the surface veneer. In all probability, it has a corresponding "back" veneer of walnut, or similar hardwood that balances the plywood construction.I think you are going in the wrong dirrection with your "fix" of the cracked finish problem. There is no need to re-veneer. You only need to re-finish the existing wood. Yes, you could accomplish the job, if you have some experience veneering in the first place. But a car's interior is a brutal test of glues and finishes, etc. In all probability, the existing veneer glue is the best for the job, and you should take advantage of the fact that it is still good.Since you have already committed yourself to applying finish, why not carefully remove the cracked finish and apply new? In all probability the old finish is lacquer. You could try lacquer thinner on it to remove most, or just carefully sand it back to new wood.I would not finish the old veneer, or new with spar varnish, I would use lacquer again, which is very durable. Spar varnish cannot be rubbed out and the "look" would be very inappropriate for a car dashboard, which typically needs the finish to be rubbed to a high gloss. You could rub the lacquer out to a satin gloss, but don't use "satin" finish.Rich

1. 
   jeanlou | Jan 01, 2007 03:53am | #8

   I didn't mean to be a ''creep'' and rain on your parade with my comments on the veneering solution, Joe. I feel that the suggestion that Rich just made is a wise direction to take. The worst thing that can happen is that you get to practice stripping and refinishing. There is always time to re-veneer the surface should anything go wrong, but most probably you will like the results.

   Veneer was cut thicker in the years when your car dash was built, so there should not be too much danger of sanding through the original surface...but do be careful because it has already been sanded or scraped  during the original construction. 

   Good luck,   JL