I’m trying to prepare myself to make some veneer out of some beautiful stock I have — and plan to acquire in the future. I think I can (eventually) handle the sawing portion, but it’s the thicknessing and smoothing I’m not sure I’m prepared for.
I’ve just purchased a bandsaw with 12″ resaw capacity. I’ve got a Timberwolf blade suitable for sawing veneer on the way, but everything I read about cutting veneer describes the steps thus:
1) Joint and plane one side of your stock dead true, in preparation for sawing.
2) With the bandsaw (or fence) adjusted for drift, cut the veneer to about 3/32″.
3) Use a drum sander or wide belt sander to sand away the saw marks, and reduce dimensions to about 1/16″ or slightly thinner.
So how do I do this without a drum sander or wide belt sander?
The only thing that occurs to me, is to glue down the jointed/planed side. Once the veneer has adhered to the substrate, then I can plane it.
I think this will work, but if I have any “fancy” patterns or designs, I’m concerned the resulting mishmash of grain directions will make it likely I’ll be tearing into the veneer at one transition or another.
So here are my questions. First, is 1/16″ a good maximum thickness, to prevent the veneer from behaving like solid wood and moving? Second, once I’ve got a 1/16″ veneer adhered, can I in fact plane it like a normal board? Finally, in that case, are there any suggestions on planing techniques that will help me avoid tearing up complex, glued-up designs?
Thanks in advance for any help!
Replies
Not sure I can help with the solution to thicknessing thing.
If its simple grain then running through planer would work. You may want to try skewing the piece as much as possible so that it is more of a shearing cut. In extreme case, I think you can have the grind of your knives altered to help reduce tearout and such. Otherwise you might need to buy one of those fancy helical things. I guess Im also not sure that thickness has anything to do with preventing wood movement. It is however the case that thinner veneer is more likely to move with the piece it is glued to rather than try to move independently.
Normally, one veneers to a comparatively stable substrate. Plywood and MDF are two candidates; they're used because they do not move with humidity changes. Therefore, you want the veneer to which you bond it, to remain dimensionally stable as well.
Natural wood, such as 3/4" boards etc., exhibit dimensional change due to humidity. The amount of movement is dependent on grain direction, species, and the amount of humidity change.
Veneer cut very thin, such as commercial veneers (often 1/42" thick), does not exhibit the same amount of dimensional change due to humidity. It's not entirely without movement (which is why both sides of a substrate must normally be veneered, to balance the stress), but when sufficiently thin, it can be treated as if it were stable.
I've heard some opinions on how thin such a veneer must be, without causing so much stress and strain that it causes failure. One "rule of thumb" I'd heard was 1/16", but I can't even remember where I heard it. I do not, therefore, have any idea of how reliable that memory is. So this is why I posted here.
I don't think using a planer (machine) is the direction I want to go. The surface my planer leaves is rippled, not acceptable for finishing. Admittedly, it's cleaner than my band saw is likely to give me, but I'd have to do more cleanup regardless.
I was hoping for some informed ideas from folks who have finished veneers without a drum or wide belt sander. It appears that either the question isn't interesting, or I'm treading in uncharted waters. It'll be an adventure. I guess I'll take my chances, saw the veneer and bond it, then try my normal hand planing regimen. We'll see... Thanks, hdgis1, for writing!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I have used the following approach with good success on several projects. It requires a well tuned and very sharp hand plane.1.Flatten a face of the wood on a planer. (The face done by the planer will always be the face glued down to the substrate.)2.Cut the veneer sheet from the wood and mark to show the grain direction. I normally cut the veneer fairly thick – somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8 or more)3.Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you have all of the veneer sheets cut. (Do not move the setting on the band saw until you have all the veneers cut.)4.Joint the edges of the veneers using a hand plane and a shooting board. (David Charlesworth video #3 shows the technique). Some folks joint both sides of the primary board on a jointer before re-sawing and eliminate this step. I find the hand plane approach gives much better results.5. Glue down the veneers to the substrate with the re-saw side up. Take care to lay down the veneer with the grain all going in the same direction.6.After drying, clean up any glue with a hand scraper. Now you have a very flat board with a rough texture.7.Use a hand plane set to a very fine cut (.001 - .002) and remove all the saw marks from the board. This will leave a surface that can't be matched by any sander. I use a 4 /1/2 plane. Using this approach, you don't really need to use very wide boards. Since you are using a veneer approach, book matching or other visual effects can be used by employing two pieces of veneer of ½ the width.
I can't stress the value of learning to tune, sharpen and use a hand plane. It opens so many doors.
Jim, thank you very much. It's nice to hear from someone who's done it, that the intended course can lead to success.
Watching David Marks glue up wide pieces of veneer, I learned that I should joint the edges. He uses the jointer, but I think I'd rather follow your lead and use a plane and shooting board. One thing I will copy from Marks is to put the two pieces face to face, so any inaccuracy in the angle will be canceled out.
I'll have to look for Charlesworth #3. I have #1 (Plane Sharpening) and #2 (Hand Planing), didn't know there was a #3. I can't find it at Highland Hardware, do you mind saying where you found it?
Thanks again!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
try
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1320
The acutal name is "Precision Shooting Simplified". (I think)
I've learned a lot from the Charlesworth videos I already have, and have now ordered #3. Thanks for the pointer!
I'm now thinking about doing the actual glue-up. I'm figuring I should be able to lay my Bessey K-clamps on their side, and get good clamping pressure. I hope the edges aren't too rounded to do the job well. If it looks like trouble, I guess I'll get some pipe clamps set up.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I have seed David Marks use the pipe clamps and the bricks but could not convince myself that pipe clamps are the way to go. Particularly if the veneer in thin. It obviously works for him but I don't joint veneer and then glue it down. I joint and glue down at the same time.
I glue up using a combination of wedges and cauls. I use the wedges to apply side pressure to bring the joint in contact. (Wedges are really under-rated as clamping devices.) It does not need much pressure. I use the cauls to provide the pressure to the veneer and the substrate. <!----><!----> <!---->
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The substrate should be about 2 inches wider than the veneer. This gives some room for the wedges. Make a bunch of small wedges from any wood you have laying around. Clamp a strip of wood to the two sides of the substrate as a back wall for the wedges.
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Put glue on the substrate (only where the veneer goes) and the veneer. Lay down the veneer. Put wedges along both sides. Tap the wedges to bring the joint home. It does not take much.
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Put a board over the veneer to distribute the pressure. Put the cauls over the entire thing and tighten it down. I normally put a cork layer between the pressure plate and the veneer keeping at least ¼ inch from the seam (stay away from the glue. )
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I think the reason he uses pipe clamps is, they are 90° right down to the table.
Making the sheet first has made sense to me, because then you're optimizing clamping to bring the veneer-veneer joint together. After you have the sheet, then you can clamp or use a bag to bond to the substrate.
I'll have to think about your method more. I wonder if I can make it work for me too...
Again, thanks!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Be careful that when you start reversing sheets that they end up all planing the same way. Easier to just joint the edges squarely, I'd think.
The 1/16th inch thickness is quite commonly seen in period pieces. I believe Krenov spoke or "real veneer" a being about that thick.
John with even the best resawing blades you may have a difficult time getting veneer of a uniform thickness straight off the bandsaw. The more figured the wood the more difficult this will become. You may be able to compensate for some of this by using a piece of fabric on the top platen or caul on your pressing device. This will give you better clamp pressure on uneven surfaces. Apply the fabric behind a release shield, I personnally use butcher paper. This however will only work on pieces that are slightly out of thickness.
Putting veneered panels thru a planer is a bit like gambling. It may come out planed and it might come out with pieces of veneer missing. If it is not perfectly flat there is not much room in the thickness of veneer to work out snipe marks. If this is something that you are planning to do on regular basis you may want to seriously consider a drum sander or make friends with someone who has one and buy him some abrasives for his sander. The thing is you are better off doing your thicknessing before going into the press in lieu of afterwards.
Sometimes it is better to glue the edges of the veneer together before pressing especially on thicker veneers. Thicker veneers are harder to hold together with tape than commercially available veneers so it may be a good idea to do this unless you really have the edges matched well. Keep in mind that if the veneers are not the same thickness where they are joined the caul may apply pressure on the thicker piece pushing it out of alignment.
My advice to you is to really spend some time getting your bandsaw setup spot on and take your time resawing so you will yield veneer of the most consistent thickness possible.
Good Luck
Ron
I'm not considering running the veneered panel through the planer. My planer doesn't leave a ready-to-finish surface anyway, not even on solid boards.
I am leaning towards gluing the veneer panels together in a separate step, prior to bonding to the substrate. I'm just not seeing what benefit I get from doing them together, though I'm impressed that the other poster has had success doing it like this. Then I'll smooth the exposed bandsaw cuts with hand planes, after bonding.
I sure do understand and agree that a drum sander would be nice here. I guess I'll give this a shot and see how it goes... my wife just called and told me my bandsaw blades have arrived today from Suffolk Machinery (pretty quick work, since I ordered on Friday!), so if I'm lucky I'll get to play with this on the weekend.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
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