I’m in the process of building a pair of stereo speaker cabinets. I’ve built other cabinets in the past but this time I’m looking for a slightly different look. I want to round off the front two vertical edges, approximately 1 – 1-1/2″ radius and then wrap them in veneer (both sides and front). The top will be capped with solid lumber. My questions are regarding the veneering.
I don’t have access to a vacuum press, what type of adhesive should I use? I’ve done lamination work in the past using contact adhesive. Would this work for this application?
The grain of the veneer will be running in parallel with the rounded edges of the cabinets. How large do I have to make the radius of the rounded edges to prevent the veneer from splitting?
I was planning on using oak veneer to match the decor in my house. Since oak is an open grained wood, will this complicate what I’m trying to do?
How much difference is there in veneer? Any suggestions as to where I should purchase either by mail or locally to the Minneapolis area?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions and advice
Replies
Anyone?
Kurt,
No one has really jumped on this and I'm not a veneering expert, but the bonding agent of choice on much veneer work, especially bends and curves would be unibond. I would guess that you should be able to do the curves you're talking about. And depending on your substrate, your might be able to use hide glue as well. Yellow glue can be used, although much is said about it creeping over time. Contact cement, well, people love or hate it.
As for hide blue, I have never used it myself. You would be best to contact Rob Milard (sp? sorry Rob) as he does alot of hammer veneering with hide glue (with beautiful results). He would be the one to ask about hide glue and the curves you are proposing. For a small project like yours, it might be the way to go.
Scott
Scott, thanks for the reply.
First, what is unibond? I've never heard of it. Second, please describe "hammer veneering". In envision a veneering application that uses a mallet of some sort to apply the pressure to the veneer.
One reason I'm kind of gravitating toward the contact cement is that it has instant tack qualities. If this were a flat application I think I'd have more options for adhesive type. I've only used hide glue once before but liked the results (assembly of a piece of furniture). In this instance, however I'd be concerned about the open time, meaning that by the time I had applied the glue to the entire surface it will have already set up. Additionally, I don't have a vacuum press and would rather not build one specifically for this particular project. The surface area that needs to be covered on these cabinets is roughly 10 sq ft. My impression is that the glue-up needs to happen in one step, and I only get one shot at it. Since I've worked with the contact adhesive, I know what to expect both tack qualities, how to approach adhesive application and how long I have to work with it.
Most of the lamination work I've done has been with counter top laminates rather than veneer. Can you recommend any sources for veneer?
Thanks again for you reply.
The easiest way to go would be ordering some veneer with self adhesive backing.
I use this place, tapeease.com.
You could also describe your project to them for suggestions on the thickness of the veneer that would be best. They are really nice people and good prices.
Good Luck,
Tom
Over the past while I have started using water based contact cement for curved veneer work. In the past, the complaint against contacts was that a VOC finish (like lacquer) would degrade the cement, allowing it to loosen. Since using this cement I have experimented with a heavy lacquer application and have not had any trouble. One thing you may find helpful with curved work is to buy premium paper backed veneer.
I’m still no up to speed with the new forum, so I missed the veneering question. As someone noted, I hammer veneer everything (well nearly everything). I have not use the Unibond adhesive, so I can’t say anything about it, but I can say a lot about contact cement, none of it good. I did not see what you are using as a substrate, but if its any kind of particleboard, I doubt that the hide glue used with hammer veneering would work. Hammer veneering is ideal for difficult areas, since you can see what’s happening, while there is still time to fix it ( you can’t do that with any kind of a press). If you have ever used hot hide glue, you’d know how sticky it is and how fast it sets. It’s this natural tack and fast set which lets you adhere veneer to difficult shapes. What hammer veneering amounts to is slapping on some glue, and running a squeegee like tool ( the veneer hammer) over it until the glue grabs enough to hold it in place. If you’d like a more complete description, just let me know and I’ll do my best to fully describe the process.
Kurt, In the absence of a veneer press, and bearing in mind all that has been said before about adhesives, methods, etc., etc., in your circumstances I'd probably go with a single sheet of veneer and Scotch (aka hot hide glue) and veneer hammer for the flat section, but I'm curious why no-one has thought to mention dealing with the final wee bit of tricky bending of, and and the holding of the veneer around your curved edge employing that old sandbag trick? Sometimes the simplest tools work very well.
Anyway, once you've got your flat section laid, you'll have a flap of veneer hanging out that needs bent and stuck down, and the glue will have chilled and won't grab. A damp cloth over the veneer, and a warm iron will reactivate it. Work quickly, get it all gooey again, squeeze out what you can gently with the iron and the veneer hammer, without stretching and breaking the grain of the veneer, and dump the sandbag in place. Kind of pour it on from the top flat surface and let it drape over the edge. The sandbag is best if it can be warmed a little, not roasting hot though, but definitely not chilly. Near a hot water heater of some sort might be good. Dumped on top of a radiator for half an hour or so, etc..
How tight a radius can you veneer? A single leaf of straight grained cooperative stuff will roll up almost as tight as a pencil with the grain. Less cooperative stuff can often be encouraged with heat and steam--another good reason for Scotch glue, an iron, and a veneer hammer.
I probably read, but I can't recall what you are using to form the curved ground with, but I'd suggest you avoid veneering to a curved edge of chip (particle) board. And the less said about contact cement and veneering the better. Ughh. <g> Slainte, RJ.
I used to be positively apathetic, but now I really couldn't care less.
Edited 3/26/2002 11:37:15 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Rob and Sgian, thanks for the help. I'll do my best to describe what I'm doing in a little more detail, that might help. I'm building a pair of speaker cabinets. The substrate will be 1-1/2" MDF on all 3 sides that will be veneered. The cabinets are roughly 10" wide by 12" deep and 36" tall. The two (front facing) 36" edges will be rounded off to a 1 or 1-1/4" radius. I'll be rounding the edges using a combination of table saw cuts, files, abrasives etc. I have a shaper but don't have a cutter to create a profile of the desired radius, and don't want to purchase one just for this project. Only the front and two sides will be veneered. The back and bottom can remain rough. The top will be capped with a piece of solid hardwood. I made a JPEG sketch of the cabinet but can't figure out how to insert the file into this post.
The idea of using hide glue sounds interesting. I've never used hot hide glue, only the bottled stuff. I'm not sure if liquid hide glue has the desired tack properties for this application. Since the MDF is very porous I'm thinking that I'll probably need to size the cabinets with something prior to the veneering. If the hot hide glue is still appropriate for this project and sizing is required, would I be best to size it with a layer of glue and allow it to soak into the MDF and cure out, then proceed with the veneering? It seems most appropriate to size with an agent that the adhesive can "bite" into.
Sgian, I like the sandbag idea. Something I should've thought of. The only thing that concerns me about wrapping the corners is dealing with the 36" length all at once and the possibility of allowing a blister to form.
One last question. Pretty much everyone with veneering experience has dashed the idea of using contact adhesives. I've heard two reasons, inability to correct a mistake because of the instant adhesion and solvents in some finishes attacking the adhesive and causing it to loosen. Is there more to it than that? Do they have a tendency to creep? Do they delaminate more readily over time?
For future reference, how do I post a picture or attach a file to these posts?
Thanks!
-Kurt
Contact cement forms a thick gummy line-- in comparative terms-- and never really goes off, and creeps, apart from the other problems you are aware of and enumerate.
Below the box you type in, as I'm doing now-- scroll down a bit-- you'll find five brown buttons. Second from the right is an Attach button. Use that to attach a JPEG. Keep your JPEG's small, say less than 30 KB, and size them about 100- 125 mm (4- 6") wide and the same deep, otherwise they take forever to load, and small images are generally plenty good enough for our needs here. If they take too long to download, I usually just click the X to close the pop up window before they get a tenth open. I'm impatient like that, and so are lots of other people. Also, if you scroll down far enough you can read the message you are replying to, and in a wee box above the post button above, you can specify to whom you are replying to, or select All to make your message a general one to no-one in particular-- you'd probably worked that out already, but here I'm responding specifically to your last post, 2426.9.
Is this a quarter round radius at the front edge, as I supposed earlier, or a bullnose (half circle) shape? MDF is good ground for veneer, and even the edge is not too bad, although the exposed 'chips' from the centre of the board are a bit more porous than the flat face.
You can make your own sandbags out of a stout plastic bag. All you're looking for is a means of holding the sand in a manageable lump. A long sausage of sand seems like it might be appropriate here, and this will apply even pressure along the curved front edge, and here I'm still assuming a quarter round, not a bullnose, which would require a bit of a modification of the technique. And with Scotch (hot hide) glue, you can always go back and work the veneer again if there's a bubble. The stuff is reversible with heat and a little moisture.
I'm curious as to why you are veneering this curved profiled front edge rather than attaching a solid timber moulding to a veneered panel. I can think of lots of reasons why you would want to do what you are doing, but still, I'm intrigued because attaching a solid lipping might be somewhat easier. Slainte, RJ.
Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
Edited 3/27/2002 10:07:05 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Okay, I'll try this again. I had an entire reply ready to post, I hit the "back navigate" button and lost the whole dam* thing!
I've attached a JPEG, thanks for the help. I don't know why the image is so poor. The program I used to generate it is more geared toward solid modeling than producing images.
You are correct in assuming that the rounded edges that I'm referring to are quarter rounds rather than bull noses. There are a couple of reasons why I'd prefer to round the edges of the MDF as opposed to inserting a pre-formed piece of hardwood moulding. One is strength, I'm afraid I'll loose strength using the insert since it won't be a structural member. Another is appearance. I think I'll like the more contiguous look of the single wrapped sheet as opposed to abutting three separate sheets of veneer up to the hardwood moulding. Last is that I'm concerned that I won't be able to match the surface of the individual veneer sheets to the hardwood mouldings. Veneer is so thin that there's very little margin for error that can be addressed with a scraper or sandpaper after everything's in place.
As for the hammer veneering technique,,, do I have this right?
Apply some hot hide glue to the front surface of the cabinet substrate and spread it around a little with a brush to even it out. Then lay the veneer over the tacky adhesive and squeegee the excess adhesive out from underneath with the "hammer". (I am under the impression that the hammer, and overall technique, resembles that of hanging wallpaper. I'd be inclined to use a j-roller but I think another responder advised against this. Does this squeeze too much adhesive out of the joint?) This basic spread-adhesive-and-squeeze-out-the-excess process continues progressing from the center toward the rounded edge of the cabinet working in a direction perpendicular to the grain of the veneer. When I approach the curved surface I continue as described above but use the sandbags to hold the veneer in place until the adhesive sets up. Once I reach the edge of the veneer, this process is repeated starting from the front face and progressing in the other direction. I have not used hot hide glue, can it be mixed on a double boiler with a hot plate? How hot does it need to be? I'll do a little searching around I'm sure I can find some additional instruction on my own.
One thing that was mentioned about solvent based adhesives is that it's bond is weakened by the use of solvent based finishes. Will I run into the same problems if I use a water soluble dye stain to finish the cabinets if a water soluble adhesive is used for the veneering?
The openings will be cut after the veneering is complete, taking care not to mar the veneered surfaces. The speaker drivers will be mounted flush with the front surface, this will be accomplished with a router, template and a guide bushing. After that, all that's left is to install the drivers, hook 'em up and enjoy some tunes and a pint!
Thanks again for the help. It' nice to move into a new project with the help of somebody who's been there before. That way I can learn from existing knowledge rather than my own mistakes. If it makes more sense to discuss the detailed stuff off line, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] or [email protected] (work/home). Thanks again for the help.
-Kurt
Absolutely not Kurt. No way will I take this exchange private---- and this topic remains public. If I give lousy advice someone can call me on it, and perhaps offer better suggestions. That's what forums are for. Open exchange.
I understand why you want to do what you are aiming for, i.e., a continuous run around the box with the veneer grain running the length. Here's how I would approach the job if I were to hand veneer using Scotch glue and hammer veneering techniques.
Make up the box.
Set up a width of veneer(s) long enough to cover both the length and the combined width of 2 sides and a front. This will almost certainly mean joining the edges of the veneer in a slip match, book match, or random match, etc., and could be considered a whole new topic, so I won't get into it.
Veneer your project in 3 distinct stages, one routine of which might be,
Start at the left side with your wide joined pieces of veneer, and veneer this side to just beyond the curved front edge. This means slicing the already joined veneer somewhere just beyond where the curved bit at the front of the side meets the flat front face.
Go to the right side and veneer that 'til you get just beyond the curved front edge, and onto the front face.
Now veneer the front face, overlaying the front veneer on top of the bits from the side that reach the front. Slice through the ovelap with a knife and straight edge, peel back the veneer, and remove the overlapped stuff.
Apply a bit of heat with an iron, and a damp cloth, and glue it all down again. You might need to work a bit more glue into the area, but that's no big deal with Scotch (hot hide) glue.
That's one approach. A better one might be to
Produce the full width of veneer as described before to cover both sides and the face.
Cut a chunk out of the centre enough to cover all the front face, and go around each of the curves at either side.
Veneer this cut out bit to the front face and take it round the quarter round curves.
Join the remainder of the veneer across both sides by overlapping as before, and trim to form a neat line.
In both these scenarios you can use the sandbag trick I mentioned earlier in another post to get you neatly around the corner, but I'd work using the last bulleted routine, starting at the front. It's most visible, and mis-matches in the grain where the veneer might overlap will be less noticeable at the sides.
You seem to have got the gist of hand veneering with a veneer hammer, but I'd read up and practice a bit before you get to your real thing. And I'm answering in shorthand here too, so I'm not saying a lot that could be said. It's easier to demonstrate the technique than it is to describe it in words, but I hope I've said enough to at least put you in an acceptably helpful direction. Slainte, RJ.
Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
Edited 3/27/2002 11:31:20 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Edited 3/27/2002 11:32:58 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sorry to offend. I figured that since this conversation seem to have been reduced to two people that it's just taking up forum space and could be handled just as easily via e-mail, that's all.
I think I've got a firm foundation to go on now. I probably won't get much done this weekend, 'reles coming over for Easter dinner. Translation: Clean house, prepare food, no playing in shop.
As far as veneer sources go, I checked out the Tape-Ease web site that was posted by another responder. It seem that most of what they have is large sheets, probably fabricated of smaller pieces, mostly 10 mil. That sounds pretty thin but will roll around my edges better than thicker stuff. From them I can get a 4X8 sheet of crossgrain which would leave little waste. This would not require that I make seams. Is this an appropriate way to go? Or is there a better choice for the type of veneer? My dad also has a stack of oak veneer that must be close to 30 years old. I think it's a little warped and may be brittle from sitting around for so long. It has been stored in a dry place laid flat on a shelf in his workshop. Would I be best to steer clear of that stuff? I need to take a look at it before passing final judgement but I'm not sure if veneer becomes more difficult to work with as it ages.
Thanks again for all of your time and help. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
-Kurt
Would like to offer my 2 cents of experience.I bought Mike Burton's Book "VENEERING,a foundation course".Buy It! He has a little "homespun" humor with a tremendous, serious appplication of all the different ways to do veneering.Especially see his full section on PVA gluing with a hot clothing iron. I did a project with hot hide glue,Gawd what a mess! I got the book from woodcraft several several years ago
and used Mikes PVA glue idea and to this day the doors and cabinet have not shown one iota of bubbling or de-lamination.Far less trouble to accomlish the same thing.
Mario Rodriquez uses this same porcedure.
Fred Drake,Illigatum non Carborundum
I don’t think a J-roller will work in place of a veneer hammer. Here is a concise description of my hammer veneering method. I made my own veneer hammer out of wood with a UHMW plastic "blade", this stuff glides easily and nothing will stick to it. Some articles say to coat both sides of the veneer with glue, but this is a huge mess (which must be the reason most people never try hammer veneering, but once). I dampen the face of the veneer. Then I spread the glue on the substrate. The glue will gel long before you get a chance to hammer it down, but a iron set on low will re-liquefy it. The glue won’t work unless it is liquid, once it gels; it has no adhesive properties. Work your way up to the curved area pushing the hammer firmly over the veneer. Be careful not to let the glue cool, or you risk blowing out the veneer. If you have any spots that won’t stick, let them sit awhile and come back to them, they will almost always work better then. Never push the hammer across the grain, as this can stretch the veneer, causing it to crack later. Having said that I light pass over the curves going across the grain when the glue has geld slightly may be necessary and permissible. Once you get to the curved sections, the choice of sandbags or the hammer veneer is up to you. I would continue with the hammer, since you can see what is happening, but sandbags are a time-honored method for curved work. As noted the bags must be heated. Once your hide glue has dried, the moisture in the finishing process won’t affect it. Hide glue is far more moisture resistant than some people will lead you to believe. I first used a double boiler to make hide glue, by placing the glue in a heavy glass jar, sitting in the pan of water. The glue should be kept at about 140-150 degrees, and should never get much hotter than that, because it breaks down. The glue should run off the brush in a steady stream. You will have to add water to maintain this consistency. I also add white vinegar to my hide glue. Being lazy and not too fastidious, I don’t measure the ingredients, what I do is pour on enough water to just cover the dry granules, let it sit for at least a half-hour. Heat it and add water until you get the glue to where it drops off the brush in thick blobs (real technical ain’t it) then add enough vinegar until it runs off in a steady stream. It’s better to under do the vinegar than to over do it. I have no idea what the vinegar does, but it seems to help the initial tack, and certainly does not hurt the final strength of the glue, which is impressive. Once you become familiar with hammer veneering, even seemingly complex veneer jobs will be easy. I have not veneered over MDF, so I have no idea how it would work.
Rob
I was reviewing you answer about hammer veneering and had a question.
Have you ever veneered wood onto a metal substrate? I want to veneer the dash of a 1959 Messerschmitt and the existing dash is metal but would be painted with automotive paint before veneering. Would hide glue work? There are several areas of complex sharp curves. Will the veneer be able to stretch to fill small hollows by pressing with the hammer during application?
Mark,
I wish I could answer this question, but I have no idea if hide glue would stick to metal. I've read where hide glue is used to chip glass, so it has the potential to stick to non porous surfaces, although I believe this is done with a higher gram number than woodworking glues. My first thought would be to use sand bags or a vacuum bag, but this is just a guess.
Rob Millard
Rob, I have an unrelated question to this topic, but it does concern hammer veneering. I have a table top to make to put back on a desk to replace a damaged-beyond-repair top, circa about 1900. The original top is poplar for the substrate, with two layers of veneer on both top and bottom. Walnut is the primary wood, with the edge formed in the poplar stained to match. My question is, should I crossband these two layers, and overlap each piece to cut for the seams, or should I edge glue each layer and glue down as a whole? I hope I explained this well enough. BTW, the top is 28" X 54".
Thanks for any help.
Thanks for your prompt response. I have a call into a glue manugacturer for the technicals on the adhesive.
A vacuum bag is out of the question since the dash is welded into the car and I have to veneer in place. Sandbags may be the way to go. My real question id how mutch are you able to shape veneer around tight radii using a hammer. If push comes to shove I can fill in the most of the curves with "bondo" and then it would be a simple arc to cover but I wanted to keep the dash profile as original. The nice thing about the hide glue is that it is easily reversable with heat if I later wanted to go back to the original stock dash.
Once again thanks for you input.
Mark
There was no offence Kurt. If we'd gone off forum then the subsequent input from Rob and Fred would not have been added. They both had useful things to say. In addition, there are often lurkers that might pick up a useful titbit or two that they might be able to use in a project of their own sometime.
Any lurkers out there that have not contributed to this discussion, but wouldn't mind confirming that they've lurked and perhaps found something of interest? Slainte, RJ.Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
Guilty as charged.
I think you should use paper back oak veneer in this case with a very good contact cement. I hate water based anything anymore so go with spray 90 from 3m since you only have a small amount to cover. One can roughly covers an 8ft x 8ft area in my experience. It drys very quick and is invisible. Remember to make a nice seem you should wrap it almost all the way and then mark your final cut however you like. Good luck!
Since there is some veneering knowledge assembled here, I'd like to ask another adhesive question.
Which type of adhesive is best used in a situation where at minimum, moisture resistance, and at best,a water proof bond is desired? The sheets will be no larger than 9" x 12".
TIA
Urea formaldehyde might be my choice, but there are others. I don't really think of veneered work as being generally suitable for extreme conditions. Why is it necessary that you're veneering project has to stand up to high, sustained humidity? If we know, perhaps better suggestions might come forward. Slainte, RJ.Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
Thanks RJ. I've been making small wooden fly-boxes that I sell locally using highly figured wood for top and bottom panels. Warping is a problem even after microwave drying of the panels and sides are too thin to resist warp so I have been considering veneering 1/8" plywood panels as an alternative. The boxes are pricey, so they are generally handled carefully, but they do spend time in wet environments.
Would you give me a quick rundown on suggested technique? I assume a press of some sort is required due to lack of tack in the adhesive and slow dry time. I will have to apply veneer after the box is glued up but before it is cut open, minimum size is 7/8" thick, 3 1/2" x 5 1/2", max is 1 1/2" thick, 9" x 12".
Thanks
Edited 3/31/2002 12:20:31 PM ET by Dick
Edited 3/31/2002 7:54:07 PM ET by Dick
Dick, Now I rather see. Presumably you’re only talking of veneering plywood for the top and bottom panels, not the sides (carcase) which will still be solid timber? If I’ve got that right I think I’d still use urea formaldehyde. It’s not absolutely waterproof, but it’s very water resistant, and more than manageable for doing the veneering. Yes a vacuum press would be ideal, and it’s quite a big investment, but if you’re making money from these wee boxes that could perhaps be recouped,.......well? And there are quite small vacuum bags out there now that are quite economical. I don’t have the URL to hand, but there is a forum called something like vacupress where you might find links to suppliers. It’s been a long time since I visited that site, but if you do a search you should find it, and it might already have been mentioned in this thread.
Failing a bag, you can turn to book presses for small panels, and even clamps and slightly curved polished cauls- the polish preventing adhesion to the veneer, and these will hold the veneer whilst the glue goes off. At about 70°F I’m pretty sure it takes urea formaldehyde about 7 hours to cure, but if you can add heat you can bring this down considerably. Without a bag, I’d aim for veneering one larger panel on both sides in a caul, probably one side first then the other for balance. You might be able to veneer one large panel enough for 6- 8 lids and bases, or more, depending on the size needed. The veneered ply can be trimmed later.
The panels might be fitted into a simple rebate worked into the top and bottom edge of the sides. Again I’d use urea formaldehyde for this, or even epoxy glue, which is even more water resistant. It’s definitely not a job I’d trust to PVA or hide glue, but polyurethane might be a candidate, but you’d need to watch the foaming which rather forces joints apart. Well, I hope this helps a bit, but I’d still be a bit wary of the long term durability of veneered panels in damp conditions, but a good coat of varnish on all faces and edges would help. Slainte, RJ.
Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
Edited 4/2/2002 12:45:25 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Thanks for the suggestions RJ.
I need to establish that veneering is viable before investing in the vaccuum system, so cauls or a shopmade press will have to do for now. You are correct, the sides are solid wood. As you suggested, I'm planning to set the panels in a rebate and then veneer from edge to edge to give the impression of a solid block. Inner veneer can be applied prior to cutting panels to size, but outer must be done after assembly. For water resistance, I have been using epoxy for assembly, and finishing with three coats of epoxy sealer applied with an airbrush inside and out. If I can get a half dozen prototypes made up and distributed to my testers, I'll know by the fall how durable the construction is.
Couple of questions, though. Am I better off brushing on a good coat of the adhesive to the ground or should I work with a thin even layer laid down by a flat spreader on both veneer and ground? Does the glue have any effect on the veneer in terms of moisture induced swelling? I had a bad experience with some walnut burl veneer and PVA glue that I wouldn't care to repeat.
Again, I appreciate the advice.
Dick, I've always applied the glue onto the ground, and never to the veneer, well, not after one or two learning experiences where the glue applied to the veneer caused it to curl up like crazy and become almost unmanageable. There are nice roller systems out there. A soft spongy roller underneath a hopper containing the glue is a good one. Try that vacupress site I mentioned before again. I ought to go and have a look at it myself it's been so long! <g> Naturally the moisture has some effect on the veneer. And one way to avoid introducing unnecessary moisture is to use a glue like Unibond 800, a source of which might be Vacuum Pressing Systems, Inc., 207-725-0935. It’s in ME, wherever ME is, maybe Maine? I haven’t got a good handle on all of the postal abbreviations for US states. Never used Unibond 800 myself, but some people seem to swear by it for veneering work, it being a urea formaldehyde type plastic resin, as I understand.
I can't see from a technical point of view how veneering over the top the box makes it more waterproof than veneering a panel on both sides and later setting that panel into a rebate. I can see how veneering an assembled box with a mechanical press or bag press might cause some box or lid collapsing problems.
I have no experience of epoxy sealers or finishes, so I'm afraid I'm out of my depth on that subject. I make very little furniture or joinery for external use, and what I have made has been made of timbers like teak, a white oak of some sort, keruing, or a pine. I either slapped paint on the end result, or didn't bother putting on any finish at all, except maybe a good dollop of linseed oil every six months or so. Ah well. There's lots of questions I don't have good answers to, he, he. Slainte, RJ.Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
I'm thinking of veneering edge to edge for appearance sake rather than waterproofing, also because it is more forgiving of slight inaccuracy, a plus when it comes to running multiples. I can cut the rabbets slightly deep, glue the panel in and run a fast pass over the sander to level out the face prior to veneering. My experience has taught me that an innaccuracy I have built in AND planned a solution for is much easier to deal with than the one that surprises me (which given my capabilities, happens more often than not). Also, I use barrel hinges and rare earth magnets for the closure. I've found the easiest way to get perfect alignment is to predrill the holes for these in the sides before assembly. The veneer would nicely cover the holes and a few drops of fast set epoxy in the holes after splitting the box and prior to installing hardware would provide 1/8" thick (or so) backing for the veneer over the holes.
The panels collapsing slightly during pressing has occured to me; I've thought of inserting a loose block of appropriate thickness into the box during glueup to provide support while veneering. This would have the added benefit of supporting the box sides while cutting it open on the tablesaw without having to mess with holding kerf thickness shims in place.
I have used a fair amount of epoxy and like it. Wide range of cure times, high strength, fills sloppy joints with no loss of strength because it is 100% solids, good waterproof properties, sands and polishes well, can be coloured and the ability to stick anything to just about anything are it's good points. Downside is price, lacquer thinner versus water cleanup and inconvenience (although no worse than UF adhesive). I use it on any outdoor or marine application that crosses my bench.
Just thinking about it; the handling characteristics are so similar to UF - I wonder how it would do as a veneer adhesive?
Edited 4/2/2002 3:25:13 PM ET by Dick
Dick, You seem to be in good shape for experimenting. I can't ever recall using epoxy resins for veneering jobs, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. You'll just have to try it. Anyway, good luck with your project. Slainte, RJ.Do I work really hard, or do I hardly really work?
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate the benefit of your experience.
Posting glitch
Edited 4/3/2002 1:56:18 AM ET by Dick
Just an update to the epoxy veneering possibility.
I just pulled some panels that I veneered with curly white maple using epoxy out of the press and it worked very well. The veneer finished up dead flat and fully adhered even though it was fairly rippled to start.
I used a flexible plastic Bondo spreader to apply a thin even layer of epoxy to the ground and clamped the assembly in the press overnight.
It appears the epoxy even impregnated the veneer sufficently that it bled through the pores of the wood to adhere the MDF cauls. Popped the cauls loose with a chisel breaking the surface of the MDF but not the veneer. Sanded off the MDF fragments, scraped the surface and no evidence of the bleedthrough remained even when wetted with mineral spirits.
More later after the box is done.
Just a final comment.
Made up a test panel of 1/8" ply and face veneer, applied no finish, and submerged half of it in water for ten days. When I pulled it out and airdried it the veneer was perflectly flat and still completely bonded even at the edges. No creep or splitting at all and other than staining from the iron in the water, the soaked and dry ends were indistinguishable.
Epoxy seems to be a good veneer adhesive.
There is no perfect adhesive. I have found epoxy resins to have relatively low shear strengths and are subject to creep.
If it works for you, great. You are the customer you have to satisfy.
Hi NIEMIEC1, Had actually set the 'To:' to All but didn't stick I guess.
Your comments were interesting though. The formulation I used has a lap-shear strength of 2,200 psi. I expect this is adequate for veneering panels though time may prove me wrong. The only information I could find on Urea adhesives suggests a lap-shear of about 1,200 psi. Can you enlighten me further?
I'm not really expecting creep to be a problem either because the veneer ends up impregnated with epoxy and the ground is encapsulated in epoxy so atmospheric moisture is locked out and moisture related wood movement is essentially stopped. The formulation has an elongation percentage of 11% which should be more than sufficent to handle thermal expansion, another condition these boxes are exposed to.
Dick
I have been doing some research on vacuum bag veneering and have found a great resource at joewoodworker.com. This site give great information on building a vac system (for around $50), getting veneers, and what adhesives to use. Sounds like you could use some of this information. It has sure helped me.
Thanks Seibs, I'll check it out!
Dick,
I made some fly boxes for myself nearly 10 years ago. I used shop made plywood out of 5 layers of cherry veneer for the sides. They have held up remarkably well. I think I used a urea resin glue to make the panels and epoxy to glue the mitered corners. I just clamped the veneers between cauls as I did not have a vacuum press at the time. What do you use to hold the flies? Ron
Hi Ron.
I use sheet cork on one side and 5/16" w x 1/4"h shaped racks with a 3/16" x 3/16" composite rubber strip inset for the other side. It took a long time to find a good material to take the hooks but I finally found that hobby stores sold a product used for track bed on model railroad layouts that could be cut into strips that worked very well. They are a bit finicky to produce but work well. I'll post a picture if I can get one together. What did you use?
I like your idea of making your own plywood. It would reduce the number of steps in manufacturing and could produce some interesting effects.
Dick
Dick,
I used closed cell foam about 5/32" thick lapped like shingles on one side and a sheet of it foor wet flies and streamers on the other. I esed silicone to glue them in. How much do you sell yours for?
Ron
Hi Ron. I've been selling two sizes directly. One is about 3 1/2 x 5 x 1 and goes for $45, the other is about 4 x 7 x 1 and goes for $65. The larger size goes in local tackle stores on consignment at Christmas and I get $45 for them.
Currently working on 5 x 9 x 1 1/4 using the veneering method and don't know until I've done a run of ten what the price will be.
Dick
Kurt,
One of the best things you could do is go to the following web site and explore what the company has.
http://www.flamingoveneer.com
This company is located in East Orange, New Jersey. I have been there and can tell you they definitely know their business plus the amount of veneers they have is staggering. I picked up a starter box of veneer and tools for a reasonable price with a selection of veneers. While I was there they also have real Brazilian Rosewood pre-1992, (that is approximately the cutoff date where you can not buy the Brazilian Rosewood in the United States any more because of de-forestation of the species, it's really beautiful grained etc. but expensive at $10.00 a square foot.
But back to the question they are extremely helpful and have a video on veneering that is real helpful. There is a wealth of information there and they will be more than willing to help you.
Terry
I tried to go to the web site you recommended but it was not there. Is there another address?
Jproject,
I typed in the web address tonight and got right into it.
It is http://WWW.FLAMINGOVENEER.COM
Let me know if it works.
Terry
It works great, thanks.
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