I know that when hammering hot hide glue, the cooling of the glue produces the initial set without the need for vacuum bags or clamps. Since the Titebond’s hide glue is not hot on application, how do you hammer veneer with it?
Is it a matter of drying glue on the substrate first and then reactivating the glue after it has dried?
Replies
Archibald,
Unfortunately, liquid hide glue is not suitable for hammer veneering. You can use liquid hide glue, with clamps and cauls.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Try ground hide glue 50/50 glue/water heated to 140 degrees. Cover only the ground and not the veneer. Let it set up a few minutes - place the veneer over the ground - apply an iron to the surface of the veneer quickly to warm the glue and then use your veneer hammer to smooth out. It works like a dream - I actually finished using this technique yesterday on a flitch of Walnut burl. Liquid hide glue will not work with a hammer veneer technique. Once you get the hang of hammer veneering you will see how quick and easy it can be. I like it because I don't have to wait to finish the project - I'm done with the veneer piece in 5 - 10 minutes. The Egypytians actually used hide glue 3000 + years ago and if you look at some of their furniture the veneer is still intact. Good luck
I've found people have mixed opinions of hammer veneering with liquid hide glue. In my research I've found highly respected opinions against liquid hide glue (like Rob Millard's). On the other hand is people like Stephen Shepherd. His site says liquid hide glue can be used for hammer veneering. ( http://www.ilovewood.com - look in Alburnam's Archives under Using Hide Glue )
I've never hammer veneered, so I'm planning on doing some experimenting for my next project ( Secretary based on Lonnie Bird's ). As always, your mileage may vary.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
I’m doubtful of the use of liquid hide glue for hammer veneering. While I have not tried it ( I actually never considered it), I have one experience with hot hide glue that tells me liquid hide glue would be a poor substitute. I was hammer veneering a card table top, on a very hot day (nearly 100° ), the veneer; a mild mannered mahogany was very difficult to adhere, due to the fact that the air temperature slowed the gel time of the glue. What should have been an easy half hour project ended up taking much longer and in the end I had to clamp a couple of areas, something I never have to do with easy to work veneers like straight grain mahogany. With hammer veneering a longer set time is not a blessing.
Rob Millard
I'm not an expert in this by any means but recently I veneered several simple flat door panels with two book matched pieces of curly cherry veneer. I researched hammer veneering on this site and tried that technique with the liquid Titebond hide glue. I applied a coat of the glue to the substrate and let it dry overnight. The second coat re-activated the base coat of glue and left a very high tac surface, it was like using contact cement. Once the veneer touched down it didn't move although small air pockets etc I was able to smooth out with the hammer. At one point I tried heating a seam to push it closer together and the heat made the seam pull apart, when it cooled with a lot of effort I was able to push the seam back together. After that I stayed away from heating anything.
Overall, it turned out well, although based on what I read about hammer veneering it was more like using contact cement without the odor and not much like the flexibility you get with hot hide glue.
I do hammer veneering with hot hide glue. I tried using the titbond stuff once--it was a disaster. I can't recommend using the titbond glue for hammer veneering.
The key to hammer veneering is the quick adherance when the glue cools below 140F. Titebond liquid hide glue uses urea to slow setting; this slow setting makes it unworkable for hammer veneering--at least in my hands.
I used the titebond stuff today to glue up a tool chest--nothing like having the time to "paint" 40 dovetail joints without the glue setting. This would have been extremely stressful to do using PVA.
A few years back I veneered some MDF to build speaker cabinets using liquid hide glue and a veneer press. The panels looked good for a few days, but then the veneer began peeling off voluntarily. Whether southeastern humidity levels or something else caused this to happen is a mystery. Maybe it would have stuck to wood panels rather than MDF. The job was successfully completed with yellow glue. The hide glue bond was so puny that I was able to salvage the veneer panels intact. They were turned over and attached to the opposite side of the PVA-glued units using PVA. (Speaker cabinets with a more beautiful interior are hard to come by!)I don't know much about using hide glue except that we used it in high school wood shop and it stinks to high heaven if overheated. Out of fear that local humidity levels caused my disaster, I avoid liquid hide glue. I hope others have better luck than I. As you might guess: Hammer veneering is not for me either. I don't trust hide glue in my environment regardless of what ancient Egyptians did; it would require that I purchase a lot more equipment; the glue stinks (it doesn't just smell bad); and it involves some tedious manual labor which I don't want to learn to do. Since Tage Frid thought otherwise, there must be a great deal of merit to hammer veneering especially if one is already equipped for it.Cadiddlehopper
I would say your problems with liquid hide glue stem from the MDF substrate, and possibly from outdated glue. I'm unsure if MDF is compatible with hide glue. I have used liquid hide glue for press veneering on solid wood with no problems at all.
Hide glue, whether liquid or hot, has far more moisture resistance than you think. I once hammer veneered drawer fronts, only to decide that I did not like the grain match( I failed to look carefully at the reflectivity), I thought wetting and heating the veneer would have it peeling off in no time, I was wrong. Despite that it had only cured over night, it took a lot of water and the iron turned to its maximum setting to remove the veneer, and even then it did not come off in one piece. After a longer curing time, I think the results would be the same with liquid hide glue.
Hammer veneering does not require a significant investment of time or money. The glue pot at $100 is by far the most expensive item, and the veneer hammer can be shop made for next to nothing. I've never had hide glue that smelled to the point it was a problem, unless I left it to rot in the pot; in use I hardly notice the smell. Liquid hide glue usually does have a stronger odor, especially if it is past its expiration date.
I know a fellow woodworker, who is very talented ( he could easily turn professional) and he was sold on the vacuum press. After hearing me extol the virtues of hammer veneering, he decided to give it a try. He was amazed at the speed with which complex patterns could be made. He told me that it would have taken him at least a week and half to press the drawer fronts on his reproduction Portsmouth chest, but with hammer veneering, he did it in two nights ( he can only work about 2 hours a day).
I'm as lazy as they come, and hammer veneering is right up my alley.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Your remarks are educational. I was unaware that hide glue has a short shelf life. It was out of date when I purchased it. The black letters on a dark brown background did not catch my attention either. Local vendors of the materials we use don't worry about what is on their shelves. I couldn't find shellac at an Ace Hdw that was current.Since the glue had expired, the MDF substrate probably was not the problem. I may make a test of the glue again this summer. The failure occurred with temps in the 80s and 90s with 70% and higher humidity, normal summer weather for me. A longer open joint time would be a great advantage when veneering both sides of a 2x4-foot panel. There is a 2-part resin glue available, but it is expensive with a super short shelf life and must be mail ordered.I read extensively about hammer veneering and gave it strong consideration. Having built a press and developed another way of working, I don't want to make the investment it would take to develop the skills. Beside that, I'm an old timer. I might not get it done. Life is just too short for all that we want to do, alas!Thanxx!! for responding.Cadiddlehopper
cadiddlehopper,
A long time ago, the shop I used to work in had a frugal foreman. He always bought in large quantities to get good unit pricing. One of the things he bought was a 5 gal bucket of "Peter Cooper" brand liquid hide glue. We used hot hide glue for most assemblies, and the liquid for ones needing longer open time. On discovering a dribble of Peter Cooper running down the leg of a bedpost that had been assembled days earlier, he called the company to see what was up. Turns out that bucket of glue was 3 years out of date!
I knew you were an old timer by your user name. I referenced a Red Skelton line the other day- "If I do'd it, I dets a whippin'...I DO'D it!" ( remember the mean widdle kid?) and I was the only person in the group who knew what I was talking about. Not that unusual, now that I think about it...
Cheers,
Ray Pine
More than a few people on this forum remember Clem Cadiddlehopper. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Yes, just don't tell Aunt Roady about the grey goose :-)
I don't remember eveything, but I am happy that I can still learn. Just learned about liquid hide glue shelf life. Too bad I learned it AFTER a tragic failure. Anyway, I hadn't put in a lot of effort hammering the thing. I hadn't used hide glue since high school shop classes. We used the heated stuff. Polyurethane is now my first choice, then PVAs.You must be an oldtimer, too. I just crossed the 70 mark. After the hide glue incident, I realize that I should be more careful about HOW I learn things. I am usually careful though. I have all my digits still.Cadiddlehopper
Is it possible one would need to size MDF before using hide glue to veneer it?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John,
I have no experience with veneering over MDF. My guess was, and it was only a guess, that the glue binder used in MDF would be incompatible with hide glue. I also think that since hammer veneering introduces quite a bit of moisture, the process may swell the MDF.
I like your tag line; very funny
Rob Millard
I don't know either. I put it as a question so hopefully someone with more experience will jump in. I know that when you paint MDF you have to prime it, because the stuff drinks paint otherwise.
Thanks on the tag line thing. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
FYI: You don't need a $100 glue pot to try hide glue. The heating plate on an old Mr. Coffee holds the perfect temperature.
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