Replies

1. 
   Boss_Crunk | Aug 24, 2010 03:21pm | #1

   You're either going to have to plane off a sixteenth over the whole surface of that glue up or tolerate localized depressions of a sixteenth to remove the "shallow" tearout you mentioned.  My quibble with your definition of shallow aside, please let us know if you can stand the localized hollows as this will, and should, color whatever advise is offered.

1. 
   jeremyk | Aug 24, 2010 05:00pm | #2

   Not so shallow.

   You're right -- 1/16" probably isn't that shallow. It urks me that I started w/ a cheaper plane before buying the right tool. I did have a cheap-o stanley jack plane that I used right out of the box. Admittedly, I don't know how to tune a plane, and have learned the importance of a.) paying for good tools to begin with, and b.) test on scrap first.

   Anyways, I haven't noticed any tearout with the bevel up jointer at least, so I know I just have another solid few hours (or more) of planing left to do. I have also honed the blade a few times to get it nice & sharp, so I may be getting better at that -- along w/ watching DVD's and getting decent water stones at my local Woodcraft.

   This is my first piece ever built, so I probably should have started with a smaller project, but the learning experience so far has been great & much fun.

   I still wonder, though, will I ever "need" a smoothing plane, or will my jointer get the finish just as smooth? Can I get finer shavings from a smoothing plane? I understand the difference between a jack plane being shorter in length to remove wood first & jointer to get it nice & level after, but it seems to me that a jointer would be the last step if I just retract the blade & adjust the throat plate to get a nice fine shaving.

1. 
   cahudson42 | Aug 24, 2010 05:40pm | #3

   Planing Tabletop

   If the iron in the LV BU jointer is REALLY sharp, hopefully, with enough work - you will eventually remove the tearout.

   As I remember, the LV BU jointer comes with a 38-degree iron - so you have a 'York Pitch'  50 degree plane. 'Should'  work OK with cherry.

   One caveat - Did you try to get all the 1" strips put together with the grain all running in the same direction? If you didn't do that - you likely have a lamination with grain running in both directions - making it tougher to avoid tearout.

   I do not have the LV BU jointer - but I do have the LV BU 4 1/2 (they call it a '164 1/2') and it is the last plane I use, and works beautifully for final smoothing.

   None-the-less, I think you should get the same result with your jointer.

   Really sharpen the iron, and close up the mouth to no more than a 1/64. Back out the iron until you think you aren't cutting anything at all. Slowly advance the iron, until every once in a while you hear a short 'whoose' and are starting to cut off the high spots.. Now avoid the temptation to further advance the iron. Leave it alone. Eventually the 'whooses' will be longer sounding. And finally, the 'whooses' will be occurring the entire length of the top.

   Also remember in a BU plane, wear occurs under the bevel - and if not honed true, will cause the plane to 'dive' and work poorly.

   It is as important to hone the back of the bevel in a BU as it is the actual bevel - even moreso. I use the Charlesworth 'ruler trick'  myself.

   Good Luck!

   And let us know how you make out.

   Chris

1. 
   jeremyk | Aug 24, 2010 05:50pm | #4

   Grain in different directions...

   Chris, thanks for the tip on making sure the back is true on a bevel up iron -- I did not know that.

   I think my biggest problem was inexperience in wood grain and glued them up w/ some going in opposite directions.

   Mine came with a 25 degree bevel (37 degree cutting angle) and I purchased another from them with a 50 degree bevel (62 degree cutting angle). From what I've read, the higher the angle the better w/ difficult woods, such as cherry, so I have the 50 degree iron in now.

   I'm going to try your advice & see how it works tonight. Much appreciated.

   Jeremy

1. 
   cahudson42 | Aug 24, 2010 06:15pm | #5

   62-degree - likely great for your situation

   Jeremy,

   The 50-degree iron and thus effective 62-degree cutting angle is likely going to give you the 'best you are going to get' with the opposite grain situation.

   As you know, the 62-degree requires more force than a lower angle (given the same cut depth) - but with the very light passes and very shallow cuts - you probably won't even notice the difference. If you do - back off on the depth of cut..:>)

   One drawback of higher angles is that the surface may not be quite as smooth as at lower angles.  Save all your shavings. Then burnish the final planed top using handfuls of the clean shavings.

   Good Luck!

   And again, let us know.

   P.S - to beat a 'dead horse' - get the iron SHARP!

   Chris

2. 
   jeremyk | Aug 25, 2010 09:38am | #6

   Sharp iron, thin shavings, worked great

   This worked out excellent. I spent a lot of time sharpening my iron and getting the side opposite the bevel true. Also, before I sharpened it, I could feal a burr not unlike on my scraper on the back side of the iron. Getting this level seemed to help quite a bit--- thanks for that tip. Going with almost the smoothest shavings possible (and they were *thin*) I had absolutely no tear-out, even going in opposite direction of the grain on some pieces of wood.

   I was able to remove 100% of the tear outs, and I think the deepest may only have been 1/32" ... It took a few hours, but well worth it, it looks a million times better.

   Now my next step was going to be to get the cabinet scraper out and do the entire surface to get rid of any fine plane marks, etc, and then I may try and burnish with the shavings from the plane? I've never heard of this before, though, so it may be a little trial and error at first...

   If I understand you correctly, I just grab a handful of clean shavings, and rub them vigoriuosly into the wood?

   Thanks again

3. 
   cahudson42 | Aug 25, 2010 10:43am | #7

   "Ain't broke? Don't 'fix' it..:>)"

   If you have gotten rid of the tearout, I'd stay away from the cabinet scraper. You will likely just make things worse with it.

   By 'fine plane marks' do you mean 'plane tracks' - ridges/grooves caused by the edges of the plane iron? This can happen if your iron edge is dead straight across - rather than slightly cambered at each end - i.e. looking down from the top its:  'I' rather than SLIGHTLY ')'. The camber needs only to be a few thousandths. When set correctly, you will get shavings that are thickest in the middle, and tapering to NOTHING at the edges. And no plane tracks.

   If you need info on how to camber, advise. I wanted to get this to you before you hit it with a scraper, hopefully.

   If cambering info needed, let me know if you use a honing jig - a generic $15 is fine, as is the Veritas Mk II.

   Chris

   P.S. Yes - burnishing is as you surmised.

4. 
   jeremyk | Aug 25, 2010 12:47pm | #8

   Yeah, the plane tracks is exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't heard anything about cambering a plane iron, either... I use an inexpensive hone guide from woodcraft that is very similar to the veritas mk ii.

   You guys are extremely helpful - MANY THANKS!

5. 
   derekcohen | Aug 25, 2010 01:29pm | #9

   Jeremy

   For cambering a BU plane blade, go here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

6. 
   cahudson42 | Aug 25, 2010 05:22pm | #10

   Cambering BU Plane

   Thanks Derek!

   Great writeup. Starting with the 25-degree primary and putting the camber on a narrow secondary bevel is clever for sure. While I have always used a secondary bevel on my BUs, I've been starting with a 38-degree straight grind primary - and now I see that I've unnecessarily made extra work for myself.

   I also use the Mk II guide with the optional camber roller. Well worth the money.

   For Jeremy's final smoothing issue, if I understand correctly, you would stick with a straight primary 25-degree grind, then simply add the higher 50-degree secondary cutting bevel (his current primary bevel) - using the Mk II and camber roller, getting the camber on it  with via the 'side to side' pressure method? 

   Fortunately, Jeremy has his original 25-degree iron should he wish to try it..:>)

   Hopefully his Woodcraft honing guide will do this for him. But I'm not familiar with it.

   Chris

7. 
   cahudson42 | Aug 25, 2010 05:44pm | #11

   Derek's BU cambering method

   Jeremy,

   If you have Woodcrafts 'generic' honing guide, you should be able to use Derek's method with it instead of the Mk II.

   The generic has a narrow roller vs. the wider-but-tapered Mk II roller, so you can use the 'side to side' pressure technique with it as well.

   A possible problem with the generic is getting the blade projection exactly right. I believe a very recent FWW article showed how to make a plywood jig to do this.

   The Veritas Mk II with the optional ($22 I think) cambering roller is - IMHO - well worth it - because of its ability to repeatedly set the projections very accurately.

   Also, it has an extremely useful feature not in the generic - you can set three micro-bevels simply by turning a knob on the roller end - changing the roller's offset.  While you can 'do the same thing' with shims under the generic roller, I find that a pita. 

   Let us know how you make out..

   Chris

   
2. 
   jeremyk | Aug 26, 2010 12:48am | #12

   Great instructions

   Thanks guys - I'll give it a shot with my original 25 degree, add a secondary bevel of 50 degrees, and then use my generic woodcraft honing guide to see if I can camber it "good enough" ...

   Thinking of getting the new  LV dovetail saw and a bunch of other stuff from them, so I may have to order this MK II guide plus camber assembly as well.

   Thanks again for all the help! Had to work on the quickly-coming baby's room (we gutted it down to studs, new windows, everything) tonight so table was put on hold. I'll try these techniques tomorrow.

   Any recommendations on sharpening video's? No up-coming classes I can find in the Twin Cities on the subject...

   -- Jeremy

1. 
   cahudson42 | Aug 26, 2010 02:38am | #13

   Sharpening

   I use a variation of Brent Beach's 'scary sharp' sandpaper method - http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/ - and the MK II jig, and only one back-bevel angle using the Charlesworth 'ruler trick'.

   If you are a FWW on-line 'member' - search 'scary sharp video' and there are probably a bunch - one is: https://www.finewoodworking.com/subscription/skillsandtechniques/skillsandtechniquesarticle.aspx?id=30617

   (I also use black granite 12 x 12 tiles from Home Depot instead of glass, and NO spray adhesive - more mess than its worth. Simply wet the back of the sandpaper with baby oil,  and surface tension is enough to stick it to the granite. And with the MK II riding on the paper, it doesn't seem to want to move around much) 

   Brent also has a couple video's on YouTube - as do others.

   Good Luck!

   Chris