i am setting up a shop and was wondering if it is not a good idea to store hardwood lumber vertically as i don`t have much floor space. thanks, dis
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I used to think vertical storage was a bad idea (might cause bowing and other misshapes). Then I visited Peter Loh's shop and saw all the rough stock he had stored vertically, some of it for several years. No problems! Only caveat might be to have a relatively consistent environment humidity-wise.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
thank you for the input. a friend said simular things about the boards warping, bowing...etc....but i think i remember in a wood works on diy tv, David Marks showed his wood storage shed and most or all was veritca, but i could be wrong about thatl......i live in daytona beach florida area so i have to live with humidity swings from low,........ right now it is 40% and it has been that way for months....we dont have a lot of standing water in this area llike south fl does....to high 90% in the summer rain season......will that make a big difference....?
I saw the same Wood Works show, and yes a good portion of his stock is stored vertically.
I'd add one caveat to what's been said, which is that concrete hold moisture and wood touching it is affected. I've laid down down some 2x4's on their side and sheeted over with ply to insulate my stock from direct contact with the floor. I'm sure others will have much better ideas, but you'll want to do something.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Wow, 90% !!!! That's even higher than here in the Great Northwest! Is there any way you can keep your inside RH down some? You might want to place a meter in your house and see what it is in there, try to keep your shop in that same neighborhood. A dehumidifier or two? Thing is, you don't want to build something from wood that's sitting in a 90% RH shop, and then tote into the house at, say, 20% in air-conditioned splendor. Liable to get some post-construction changes that'll make you cry.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
that 90% humidity is a rough guess. the dehumidifier is a good idea. my shop is in a warehouse type building and there is no heat or ac.....and does it get hot in the summer and early fall. i wounder how other florida woodworkers deal with the high humidity in the rain season.
Can you isolate your lumber in a smaller walled-off area that's easier to climate-control??? Sheeesh! I lived in Florida from the age of 7 to 11 years old. Cannot even imagine doing woodworking without some kind of air conditioning. Drip, drip, drip, drip (sweat). Wow.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
sweat is good but not when woodworking....it rusts the tools.....actually i cant imagine working in the heat and humidity of summer in fl either...so...i am going to have to add a window ac unit when the time comes....as the whole space is quite small....22ft x 12ft with a 6x8 off one end....the celling is 12ft so it doesnt seem so small till i get moving the table saw out into the middle to rip a sizable board. it is funny when i think that all i wanted to do was make new jewelry desplay cases for my work that i sell at art and craft fairs...to pay someone to make them from cherry and maple it would cost thousands.... so i have aquired some used and some new tools to do it myself and now i have a hew obsession.....wood..... and to make wood things....ha ha....i havent been this excited about anything for a long time....im havining a blast and i havent made much yet......mostly aquiring information, and what a great place knots is to get it !
With 90% RH, you must have some huge rust problems amongst others. And with that heat, probably the best bet would be a good air conditioner. I think they are the best dehumidifiers anyway. A dedicated dehumidifier actually puts out quite a bit of heat. I was in your fair state last week, Orlando area, It was my brother in Des Moines Iowa. Having just passed a table with a thermometer that read "'95°" in the sun. Asked how the weather was, I told him about the thermometer. His reply, "Well it's minus 12 here. Ugh
Edited 3/2/2006 11:59 pm ET by tinkerer2
Yikes Rust ! ! tell me about it....i am freaking out a little about it with all the new metal i have aquired here in florida....i opened a box of drills the other day and there it was...rust on almost everone. a freind gave me some router bits in a nice little wood box, opened it and they all had some rust on them.....he said he hadnt used them for a year.....so now im spraying practically everthing with wd40... i got t9 and i past paste waxed the table saw, band saw, jointer and the drill press...any other suggestions in keeping rust at bay would be most welcome....
Hi, Sido - Not to horn in on this, but I've a penny or two fer ye ...Paste wax is hugely important - go apply some more.Storage in closed cabinets and boxes will help greatly. Toss in a mothball to help keep water vapor off the tools (won't help in an open room or open cabinet - all it would do then is stink up the joint.)In your situation, "people grease" is going to be a constant problem - you just can't avoid wiping your own lovely human perfume on your tools. Sweat and body oils are acidic. Wipe tools down when you're done, and keep the wax tin handy. Hand tools, power tools - hammers, saws, punches - exposed surfaces and painted - the lot. Every 3-6 months or so, depending.Allow *nothing* to sit directly on the concrete floor. Get cabinets, ect., up on platforms or legs so as to get some minimal amount of air circulating beneath them. An epoxy floor finish can help to minimize damage from moisture migration thru the floor.The advice to acquire either a/c or dehumidifier is essential, IMHO. Personally, I'd go first for constant dehumidification. Best of all would be a large window A/C rewired to operate from a humidistat rather than its usual thermostat (easier than it sounds.) Insulation isn't such a big deal vis-a-vis humidity control, but sealing gaps IS. You don't care how cool it is in there (thinking of your tools), you care that relative humidity is as low as possible. If that's maintained, it will in consequence get much cooler by default anyway. AND - if its control is humidity-driven, there can be neither guilt nor recriminations about "wasting money to cool the shop ..."Regards,---John=======================================================
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Hi John, thank you for the great information and advice in the never ending battle against that nasty, never sleeping, enemy of sharp tools........rust........... i had not thought of sealing the concrete floor, but now i will as the space is not very big........sido
Hi, SidoGlad if it helped a bit. Thanks for your considerate acknowledgement of the post.---John=======================================================
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Thanks for the post. but tell me, I have a dehumidifier but don't trust the humidistat. Should I set it to the lowest humidity possible and regulate it with another humidistat? Also what is the optimum RH to aspire too? Seems that 50% does pretty well. In the past, I have regulated the dehumidifier with a timer.
Unless the humidistat needs to be replaced, I'd suggest you simply acquire an inexpensive hygrometer and hang it in the shop. Follow it for a few weeks to judge your humidistat's reliability. Don't fix it if it ain't broke. Write down a chart of your successful results - season (date), temp, humidity. In the long term it'll tell you what to look for weather-wise and which way to bias the humidistat. The real issue lies in keeping R/H below exterior atmospheric. You'll probably discover that there are just two "settings" - nominally summer and winter - that will be worth fussing over."The right humidity" is problematic, no matter how you cut it. If it's too far below atmospheric norm, then your wood is going to swell considerably after it leaves the shop. That's a regular concern for folks living in extra dry or wet locales and who fill commissions nationwide. The trick is to be aware of the likely movement and design for it.As for your tools, the moisture won't leave the air too rapidly so long as you keep the shop's dew point below atmospheric. (It's temperature/pressure/humidity dependent. Google for charts.) You can make yourself nuts with numbers - I'd suggest you just deliberately hang up a few sample coupons of bright-sanded mild steel, keep track of local humidity, shoot for at least 20 points lower in your shop, and track the coupons. If they don't rust, raise the moisture level a bit. If they do, drop it 10 points. You'll soon enough learn where you need to be. Watch for seasonal swings - winter is likely to require more vigilance.It's kinda like sharpening - figure the best practical way to get good results, and spend your real time butcherin' wood ... Stated otherwise - who gives a hoot about what the R/H is? All we really want is a decent way to keep our d..d tools from rusting. The numbers could be run from an engineering standpoint to demonstrate that the practical results still do really follow the laws of physics to the 823rd decimal point, but so what? Look at the steel, fiddle with the humidity control, and leave well enough alone when it works!DO wax the world - best insurance there is - and try to keep everything is closed cabinets with a mothball or two. Keep the tools as well-protected as possible, and let those coupons tell you if you need to be nervous.One more trick you can consider is that water won't precipitate on the tools if they're warmer than the surrounding air. In winter, I keep cabinets closed up and use a space heater to keep just the tool cabs slightly warmer than the shop. Works wonders. Serously - if the shop drops to 40 (rarely) and the cabs are at 50, I'm home free. If it's 60 and the shop's 50, I'm dead in the wet times.There's no need for perfection. If you're close and your world is pleasantly waxy, your tools will be fine. If you ignore the lot, they're gonna rust to uselessness. I Do feel that a few dollars spent on winter heat is going to protect thousands in tool expenditure, and the same for humidity reduction in summer. Again, the exact and constant number isn't a holy grail - keep a little ahead of it, coat your tools, keep your eyes open, and you'll be happy.BTW - WD40 is great stuff, but it's extremely light and evaporates fairly quickly. Not my first choice for long-term protection. Fine for tools constantly in use, but a little messy. Johnson's Paste Wax. Get my drift?Regards,---John=======================================================
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Edited 3/4/2006 1:48 am by PJohn
Humidity:
Thanks for the exhaustive reply. I had a dehumidifier (now worn out and replaced) in my house that worked real good, but it never shut off. I finally put it on a timer and it still seemed to keep the humidity down. I am now finishing my shop so have a dehumidifier in it and, as you suggest, a hygrometer. I will check it out as you suggest. About the paste wax. Is that the wax like you put on an automobile? Seems like I've heard that there is some wax not to use. When ever I put heat in a building, I turn the dehumidifier off. I think that is what you were saying?
Hi - Not automotive. (Don't know that they'd be harmful, but have no long term experience using them for tools.) I've always just used Johnson's Paste Wax, such as might go on fine wood floors. Just checked my most recent can, which is marked "Min-Wax Paste Finishing Wax" - obviously not Johnson's, definitely intended for wood. Smells the same, acts the same, feels the same - must be a duck. Works fine on steel, paint, wood, etc. - yer shop stuff. I believe this particular one came from local Ace Hdwe store. Guessing - supermarket, hardware, Home Depot, Wal-Mart - it's everywhere about us and threatening to overtake our universe! Arrrgh ... !
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Aside:
Hmmm - automotive should work well if it's something like Meguiar's, free of silicone, free of abrasives, and exceptionally high in carnauba content. It will also cost 5 times as much. Formulated for exterior UV exposure. And there's the rub - automotives have so many and varying additives that you'll read for an hour just to see if you'd let it in the door. I'll stick with good 'ol-fashioned plain paste (not liquid) floor wax, thank you.
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In general, your observation is probable. I wouldn't go for the absolute "either/or" regarding heat vs. dehumidification. There are those odd transitional times when the balance is iffy, and you may find yourself balancing one against the other in, for instance, day/night juxtaposition. Spring and fall may have similar periods of confusion. Much will depend upon how often the space is open to elements. If the air isn't changed at evening, e.g., then it's unlikely to gain rising evening moisture. Garage space can be a bear, because just about the time you've got it under control, one whole wall disappears! If you can keep the door mostly closed, then the dehumidifier will probably cost less to run, but will become an albatross in warmer weather because it adds heat.If you'll find the online info regarding the integration of R/H, temp, and dewpoint, your hygrometer and thermometer will lead in the direction of using dewpoint as your safety indicator. If temp's above dewpoint and relative humidity is below atmospheric, then you're in pretty good shape.Go here and find your city. http://www.city-data.com/ Far down on page are charts showing actual variations in averages for various weather elements. They'll help you visualize what you're working with.With a good coat of wax, your tools will be unphased by occasional lapses. This is about awareness and good sense, not about having heart attacks. ( Seems that most of us have the good sense and awareness to one degree or another - it takes just a dollop of knowledge to put them into useful action. That, thank goodness, is where these forums take the "bitter" out of experience! )Good sense... Paste wax on everything is sight, lodged in your eyebrows, and appearing in your dreams. Tools in cabinets and drawers and even closed cardboard boxes - and with a mothball - so as to discourage uncontrolled introduction of airborne moisture. If you've a machine part or the like that's much more easily serviced with a weekly shot of WD40, then go for it. But - - it's messy and short-lived - - don't forget, and don't get it all over everywhere.Hope that helps. Sorry for exhaustion!Regards,---John
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"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Exhaustive, not exhaustion - "covering every possible detail." Of course you knew that. Yes, I think I'll look for some of that wax, or see if that is what I'm using. By the way, why not liquid wax, and don't they have a spray on wax? You can tell I am not the house keeper. Thanks so much.
In general, the liquids' chemistries are designed for extreme hardness and significant renewable-by-machine-polishing build with long-chain crosslinked acrylics and blah-de-blah, requiring strippers, etc. for softening and removal. Their sole purpose in life is to make floors appear to be wet-shined. You'll not find them recommended for use on wood floors. Liquids may or may not have molecular size to encourage flow into the tiny pits and pores in tools that could attract a few molecules of water. They tend to layer much more heavily. You don't need the heavy stuff chipping off your tools and getting into your work. Perfect for tile or sheet floors. If you need that kind of thick, hard, layered protection on your tools, then line 'em up and spray 'em with automotive lacquer. And then apply a coat of paste wax to protect the chipped areas...Sprays are of necessity a relatively expensive compromise, and have to carry an inordinate amount of vehicle (not to mention propellant) in which to suspend a modicum of useful product. In my estimation, they are at best a marketing gimmick....gathers bucks, but thay ain't no progress in 'em. They'll for the most part contain oils and little wax if any, which you really don't want floating around the shop. If you need that service, use WD40 - it's cheaper and will evaporate in about the same period of time...and it smells like you must know something about machines...ugh. Or you could really spend a bunch and use Liquid Gold, and also drive yourself out with the d..d stink. (You may have perceived that I've not much patience with gimmicks.) Sprays are difficult to direct precisely to small tool surfaces, have short service lives, and will " get all over everywhere." This is really one of those situations where you ain't a'gonna find much that's better than the old simple stuff. (Actually, if I need to oil a machine way or similar sliding component, I just put a little "light machine oil" oil on a rag and wipe it down. And then go wash my hands like a good boy.) Machine oil is pretty good for your tools, too, but it comes off on your hands and makes a disaster of finishing .... need something waterproof, soft enough to close easily, and hard enough to stay in place - wonder what that would be ..?When you wax manually, the pressure of the rag will serve to force the material into low spots and under rust scales, etc., and yield a much more complete job while not offering a thick build. Complete control over where it goes. Good longevity. Soft enough to re-form when handled (for the same reason, it shines when you polish it.) Inexpensive. Experience of myriad users shows that paste wax, even on surfaces such as saw tables and jointers, won't come off and foul up subsequent finishing - sticks where it's sposedta. Just the ticket. (But do be sure to polish to the extent that there's no build or slop hanging around to slough off in chunks. A large enough excess might indeed lodge in your workpiece and goof up subsequent finish.)You can go to exotics like the new Boeing products, but they're off-the-charts for cost, and the old paste wax routine works just fine, methinks. I am at this point in my life brutally skeptical - all products are aimed solely at bottom-line sales, and many are barely - if at all - suitable. For instance, there's a famous deck finish outfit whose stuff lasts maybe 3 months. Better off using Mazola. Others are truly scientific wonders, but clearly overkill. There are 47 zillion new woodworkers out there (and I'm glad to see it!), and companies are falling all over themselves to sell 'em whatever they can, needed or not. That's why Millers Falls is gone and the hardware store has nothing but DIY-grade tools. Don't believe all you hear - there are improvements and there's much ado about nothing. Keep asking questions, and guard your trust zealously. Rant rant.Have fun ...---John=======================================================
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Sheesh - the old guy's still at it....I don't think I've been quite fair or complete in all of this. There are many "good sense" or "old school" things that will work well in most instances without fanfare, excessive cost, or standing on your head on Thursday. There are new and excellent products, many of which are genuinely outstanding. (There are more that are ripoffs -caveat emptor.)There are (IMHO) exceptions to every generality. For instance, there are folks in Seattle and Florida - and elsewhere - who are under massive and relentless assault from moisture, and may indeed find that advanced materials, such as the Boeing coatings, represent genuinely cost-effective solutions to otherwise ruinously expensive problems. Cost is a driving factor. For the weekend warrior, it's going to cost a lot less to hand-coat for protection. For the pro shop, cost of employee time is a killer, and a squirt of Boeshield may be an economically sound solution, even if its superior performance isn't critical.Better advice, perhaps, might be to learn what ya oughtta learn and do what ya gotta do, but don't fall into cachet. Use yer head and view the Pied Piper with considerable skepticism. If your problem is truly special or aggravated, there's likely to be an advanced and more expensive but practical workable solution.---John
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"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Sounds like you've found a new love.
That size shop should be pretty easy to cool off with an AC. go for it!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for posting this question, I had the same question; my local hardwood supplier, MacBeath, has a large amount of their stock stored vertically for what it's worth.
I picked up a book on how to design a shop and they suggest that it's a question of available ceiling height: since most don't have it, most wood is stored horizontally. I'll be interested to see what others say.
I'm glad that this subject has come up at this time. I'm getting ready to buy a lot of hardwood for my new shop and have been concerned regarding long and short term storage. I have horizontal storage capabilities for up to 13 feet and vertical up to 8 feet. A great deal of this material will be shipped and, since the more to ship, the better the cost of transportation, I'll have a lot more lumber delivered than I'll be able to use for some time. I also live in the high desert where the relative humidity can be up to 50% and, during the long hot summer, down to 5%, day in, day out. The lumber is being delivered at this time of year because the humidity here is up to around where the humidity is where the lumber is stored before being sold. I really don't want this investment of more than I can afford be ruined. Does anyone have experience or information regarding long-term storage of hardwood under these conditions? Any response would be appreciated.
Edited 3/1/2006 3:59 pm ET by Spalted53
Hi - I, too live in a semi-desert area with over 50% annual variation in humidity (ours is more like 10+ to 70+), and have to pay attention if I expect stock to remain useful. Your resolve to order when R/H is similar to origin is good. I'd still check the stock for its actual moisture content to decide just how big a rush I needed to be in to get it stored safely.My concern would be that a huge plain stack would wind up with some pretty severe moisture gradients between surrounding atmosphere and core, with the resulting potential for damage, not to mention movement differential as you work it. You might want to consider stickering it outdoors, just as though you were drying it. That would relieve the interior room problem, keep moisture gradients at minimum, and still provide responsible environs for the tables-in-waiting.All that's needed is to protect it from direct sun, rain, and dirt. A freestanding cover and tarp wrap will do, so long as you provide for plenty of ventilation - you want a stickered stack, not a quasi-kiln. It will do best if it's on (well-drained) concrete, but in any case the wood will be no straighter than the base on which the stack is erected. If over gravel, elevate it a bit more to provide extra underside air movement. If over earth, then Spalted53 is likely to get spalted stock plus interesting denizens. Tarp or other cover cannot touch the stack - any surround needs to be held away so as to promote free and copious circulation.You sound as though you probably know how to sticker. If not, give a shout or Google a bit.For that very long term exterior storage, you might consider sealing the board ends with exterior latex paint, molten paraffin, wax emulsion, or the like so as to discourage checking. (The wood will expire a LOT more moisture through its ends, with the result that the ends might dry overly quickly and split - sometimes for a considerable distance.) Your large cyclic R/H variation will drive that potential to some degree or another - I'd hazard to guess that your swings are precipitous, guaranteeing that atmospheric changes are going to be MUCH faster than the wood can naturally cope with.From that stack, wood should be moved into the shop for 2-4 weeks and allowed to normalize (to achieve dimensional stability) before it's worked.Hope there might have been a little in there that's useful fer ya.Regards,---John=======================================================
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Edited 3/3/2006 3:30 pm by PJohn
Thanks John for the info. I've decided, for the time being, to store it all in my shop where I have some climate control. I have a five tiered rack that can handle up wood up to 13' in length. And after reading some of the other contributions on this thread, I've "discovered" some vertical storage area behind a bench and some stationary equipment.Now, regarding outdoor storage; I have my eye on this 4', resawable Mulberry log just outside the shop....Thanks again,Spalted
Spalted, you're welcome. I don't recall ever having seen mulberry worked into cabinetry/furniture. What's the stuff like to work? Appearance? Paint the end of that log!For what it's worth, if any of your lumber cross-sections are large - 10/4 etc. - then I'd still consider closing the ends if you think it might be around for several years.Good luck with it!---John
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"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone
monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
---Pericles
Edited 3/4/2006 1:46 am by PJohn
Sido,
I've stored certain things vertically for a long time, and never seemed to have bowing problems as a result. BTW, I saw many years ago George Nakashima's huge amount of vertical storage. I'd say the biggest disadvantage is that it's hard to sift thru a pile to see what you've got.
DR
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