Replies

1. 
   Lar55 | Aug 27, 2002 12:05am | #1

   Hey Kell,

   Welcome to the forum.  I once did a project using Bartley's Jet Mahogany and it was black with a red undertone to it.  Very dark.  Others will have some different options for you to try. Good Luck!

   Lar

2. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Aug 27, 2002 09:39pm | #2

   If you have access to spraying equipment, I would recommend using both water based and alcohol based analine dyes.  The water based can be used on the raw wood and if you are using a lacquer finish, the alcohol based can be used as a shading stain.

   The main advantages of black analines are that they are more transparent and they are among the more color fast (of the analines).

1. 
   Kell | Aug 28, 2002 05:22pm | #3

   Thanks Niemiec,

   I do have spray equipment but have never used these aniline dyes before.  Any particular advice you can give me?  I assume there are issues with grain raising in using water based dyes and I'm wondering how difficult it is to overcome this and get a good finish.  Would you recommend a lacquer top coat for a bed and can I get a dull or satin sheen out of that?  Or is there something that would be better?

   Thanks again for your response,

   Kell

1. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Aug 28, 2002 09:05pm | #4

   Kell:

   I don't remember if you mentioned the wood you are using to construct this piece so I cannot address species particulars.

   The way I use analines (water based) is to sand as usual to an appropriate final grit.  Then I get a bucket of warm water to which I add a minimal amount of laundry bleach.  I add the bleach to prevent the growth of staining bacteria or molds.  I then, with a clean rag, wipe the entire piece to sufficiently dampen the surface.  You obviously don't want to over-wet the surface because you might induce warp or if your glue is water soluble, disrupt glue-line; and conversely you cannot under-wet it as you will not accomplish what you desire  --  that being to actually raise the grain.  It is totally a judgement call based on experience.  I try to make sure that the piece will dry (a return to surface dryness) within about 10 - 15 minutes.  I let the wood sit for about an hour after wetting to insure that it is completely dry and then I sand it lightly generally using the same grit I finished sanding with or at maximum, one grit lower (more coarse) and then return to final finish grit. 

   The key is to lightly sand such that you clean up the grain that you have raised.  Then I will spray with the water based analine mixture to get the almost the depth of color I desire.

   Water based black analine tends to have a bluish tint, so, in your case, the addition of a wee bit of red, will push that blueness to purple/magenta.  A bit more red and you will get the reddish tinge you are seeking.  Obviously with color, you are into alchemy adding this or that until you get the desire hue (color) and chroma (blackness).  I mix my water based analines as pure color in glass bottle and then fill a working batch from these bottles, testing on sample boards as I go (generally using a brush rather than spraying to test color).  The intensity of the color will depend both on your solution concentration and on your application rate.

   Once I have the base color in the wood, I then seal with lacquer and sand this coat being careful not to break through the dye on corners and edges.  After this sanding, I apply another coat of lacquer and while it is wet, I shade with my alcohol based analines.  Basically I use lacquer thinner as my solvent and when I am preparing my cup for spraying, I add a wee bit of lacquer to the mixture to give it some body and therein allowing it to better adhere/blend with the base coats.  I do this to avoid puddling that can sometimes occur if you spray too heavy on a surface that has now dried.

   As I am likely spraying 3-4 coats on the piece, I don't go too dark with the initial alcohol shading because I know I can repeat the process on the next coat.  I have a half pint cup touch-up spray gun that I use for application of both the water and alcohol dyes unless the piece is small enough and then I use my air-brush with 4 oz. bottles.

   Even if you go super super dark (intensity), the finished look will have a clarity that you cannot get with pigmented stains or pigmented lacquers (paints).  The smoothness of the surface is another advantage because I feel that pigmented stains impart a certain "roughness/grittiness" in the finish or tends to fill grain pores.  Thus I can dye cherry or maple (diffuse porous woods) and still more or less can read the grain on very black-black looks.

   In purchasing these dyes, you will likely only need an ounce or so of the dry powders.  An ounce of water based analine powder will make about a quart of dye which is really a lot of colorant.

   By dying the wood and tinting the finish, you get very good diffusion of the colorants into the surface of the wood and within the finish.  On this first attempt you will probably take more time than is generally required but it still is less time than it takes to wipe a stain over all the surfaces.  And once used, you will be hooked.

1. 
   Kell | Oct 16, 2002 04:54pm | #6

   NIEMIEC1

   Just wanted to say thank you for your help!  I tried your recommended process on the bedroom set and it was a Huge sucess!  The client is grinning from ear to ear and I've learned a valuable new method for finishing.  Aniline dyes rule and spraying is the way to go from now on.  So glad this project allowed me to buy a compressor, which I've lusted over for years, and spray equipment.

   Thanks again,

   Kell

2. 
   silver77 | Oct 16, 2002 07:35pm | #7

   Interesting! Definitely want to try...where do you purchase water base and alcohol base analine stains?

   thanks,

   silver

   Edited 10/16/2002 12:36:17 PM ET by silver

1. 
   Kell | Oct 16, 2002 09:50pm | #8

   Silver,

   I picked them up at the Woodcraft store here in town.  If you don't have a store, http://WWW.woodcraft.com has them.  The same dyes can be used with water or alcohol or lacquer thinner.  A 1 ounce bottle makes about 2 quarts of dye which is plenty for most projects.  My project was an enormous contemporary bed so I used about one and a half bottles.  What was great about this is that I was able to tint finish coats and control the color completely.  It also gave a very smooth feel to be topcoated and this made for less work.

   It's really great that I was able to get such a terrific look with a very inexpensive HVLP gun, the P-C model that sells for $100.  While I may not use for every project in the future, my eyes have been opened to some new methods and places to experiment.

   Good luck!

   Kell

2. 
   SgtSkip | Jan 16, 2003 04:37pm | #9

   This sounds like a finish I need to do for my wife's barrister book case.  She is wanting a dark, dark, dark satin finish. Pretty much black with no grain showing through.  I've tried ebony stain (this is pine BTW) and I get really light grain popping through a dark background, even after three applications.  Totally unsat!  I'm still a rookie in this hobby so any advice is greatly appreciated!

   Edited 1/16/2003 8:58:29 AM ET by Skip

3. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 16, 2003 09:35pm | #10

   Your description seems a little ambiguous, perhaps because I go around hunting for ambiguity. :) "No grain showing through" could mean the grain is still visible looking through the finish, but doesn't show on the surface, like when you look at light reflections. Or it could mean you really don't want to see the grain under any circumstances, which will require an opaque finish, like paint or lacquer. In either case, it will be easier to get the look you want if you start out with a wood surface that's really, really flat, which will probably require sanding sealer and/or grain filler.

   If your wife doesn't like wood grain, maybe it would be easier to give/sell the pine book case to someone who does and make her a new one out of maple or MDF.

   I often see http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/ recommended as a place to take tricky finishing questions. The owner is Jeff Jewitt, who writes on finishing for FWW.

4. 
   SgtSkip | Jan 17, 2003 04:46am | #11

   Sorry about that.  I guess I should have been more specific.  The color contrast in the grain is big.  I'm not concerned with the texture.  The grain I have showing through is more like it's either really dark or really light.  Very little in between.  Again I say, I'm a rookie.  Fill me in on grain fillers.  Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out...

5. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 17, 2003 07:25am | #12

   I re-read the whole thread, and it looks to me like the guys who are saying black dye are on the right track. You can find a lot of good information about coloring at this site. http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

   If you're happy with the texture, you don't need grain filler.

6. 
   Kell | Jan 17, 2003 09:10pm | #13

   Skip,

   No grain showing through; that would be paint! (smile)

   I really think the aniline dye dissolved in lacquer is your best bet.  It acts almost like thinned paint and that allows you to control the darkness.  If you think about, what you need is the ability to control the blackness.

   Kell

7. 
   SgtSkip | Jan 18, 2003 06:03am | #14

   Many thanks for all of your inputs!  I have learned that there's much much more to finishing than a little stain with some poly spread over top.  I'm going to start practicing...

3. 
   billballeza | Aug 30, 2002 02:55am | #5

   You can actually buy black and red satin enamel (or latex).. mix 'em to your liking.. then dilute 'em by half (water if latex, or an enamel thinner) and use that mix as a stain. Just be sure to test them on the stock you're using till you get what you want. You'll be making stain.. just the way the big boys do.