Replies

1. 
   dougmeyer | Oct 20, 2007 01:05am | #1

   I have worked on or with PCs (and before that main frames) for over 15 years now, and I have NEVER in my live had a desk that I could put my elbows on the surface with the keyboard. Heck back in school (about 22 years ago or so) my typing class did not have that for the electric typewriters either.

   In truth i can not even understand how this would work.I mean if i need to put my elbow on the surface with the keyboard it would be in my gut. I do have a chair that I can rest my elbows on (adjustable arm rests) that are about the height of the keyboard. But if I made a surface that was deep enough for my monitor, then the space to my key board, then the distance for my elbows it would be over three feet deep. And for that matter if the keyboard was on the same height as the monitor the monitor would be pretty low (but then again I am pretty tall)

   So i guess I do not understand what you would like to have the layout be.

   Doug

1. 
   Buster2000 | Oct 20, 2007 01:36am | #2

   Doug,

   Think flat screen.  I have two 19" monitors on my desk at work, and I have enough room for my elbows, and a stack of papers between them.  Considering how much time I spend in front of them ergonomics is very important.

   Buster

1. 
   dougmeyer | Oct 21, 2007 11:50pm | #13

   I was talking flat panel, if you want to go CRT then you are looking about about 2 more feet of depth.

   Like I said my elbows are about 16" from my finger tips so that would need something like 20 to 24 " for the keyboard and the elbows to both sit on the top, add in at least 12" to the screan and about 6" (for the stand and cables and you are looking at 38 to 42 inch add in another 24 for CRT if that is your choice. Add in about 3 feet for your chair and you are looking at 6 to 9 feet (say 2 to three meters) in depth per work staition. That is a LOT of room.

   Plus I really do not understand how you are going to work with you elbows on the desk. Would that not cause you to bend your wrists up? That is (or at least was a couple years ago) a big no no.

   So i really do not get how you want this to work. Could you provide a photo showing how this set up works?

   Doug

2. 
   oldusty | Oct 20, 2007 01:55am | #3

   Hello Geir ,

               I have been building computer work stations and desks for several decades and have followed some standards in ergonomic dimensions . One such standard is the perfect ht for a key board for most folks is 25 1/2" from the floor .

          The problem with your statement is most chairs are about 18" from the floor , the key board ht will be low for elbows , unless you have very long arms , in which case the key board will be too low for your long legs as well .

                dusty , from experience

3. 
   saschafer | Oct 20, 2007 03:06am | #4

   "Such a tray is since many years ago considered harmful to your health by physiotherapists."

   Not true at all. The most important thing is to keep your wrists straight, in the "neutral" position, while typing. And for most people, that means keeping the keyboard down low, just above your lap. If your chair has arms (as it should), they can be adjusted to provide forearm support.

   When a keyboard is placed up on a desk, people invariable end up typing with their wrists bent.

   See, for example, http://www.hp.com/ergo/forearms.html.

   -Steve

    

1. 
   geir | Oct 20, 2007 11:51am | #5

   Two important things :* avoid static work* vary your work position

   With elbow rests on your chair and a keyboard tray you fail on both points.

   With your elbows resting on the desk you're fine on both. And your mouse is closer at hand, which is also more efficient. And your wrists are straight if that's important to you..

   The reason for my aggression in this matter is personal experience. While under treatment for RSI at Scandiavias leading muscle and joints clinic the advise against the tray was strong and crystal clear.

   Another thing is you don't really see the trays any more. I guess they were thrown out of my office about 10 years ago, and I remember ergonimists talking about they beeing harmful even before that.

   So seeing what I regard as old fashioned and potentially harmful design on the front page of FWW really surprised me.

   G.

1. 
   rondunn | Oct 20, 2007 02:03pm | #6

   Ergonomics is like ecology ... well meaning people, but mostly BS.

   Whatever you do, the recommendation will be different next year, so do what makes you feel good.

    

   Edited 10/20/2007 7:03 am ET by rondunn

1. 
   Carya | Oct 20, 2007 03:01pm | #8

   They used to tell us to keep our backs straight up like a pencil. What kind of crap was that? I've been slouching in my chair since I was a kid and now they say that's natural and best practise. Whatever. :) Andy

2. 
   Carya | Oct 20, 2007 02:58pm | #7

   Geir, >With elbow rests on your chair and a keyboard tray you fail on both points.Do what works best for you, but this is the way I have been working with keyboards for 24 years. Works for me. If you can work with your forearms flat on the desk all day, your arms are built different than mine. My mouse is also on the tray. Only problem I have with my mouse is remembering to NOT use my wrist. In fact, any odd sensation I have after a long day is only in my mouse arm and seems to subside when I remember my wrist, take breaks, and recently when I've been using my new tablet instead. Just because you did not setup your tray and chair properly is not reason for your "aggression in this matter". Don't care what your office does. My (large) company still uses them and has "ergonomics experts" that help us set them up. I don't agree with your advice and my personal opinion is for you to move this type of discussion to another forum. I read this one for woodworking TO GET AWAY FROM COMPUTER TOPICS. Lets discuss woodworking here. Andy

3. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Oct 20, 2007 04:22pm | #9

   Geir,

   Are you dismissing all the extraneous variables, i.e. adjustable chairs for one.  With modern chairs you can adjust them to fit almost any situation.  Also, I don't think we're talking about data entry clerks as the users.  You know, those folks that work a full shift sitting there whacking at the keyboard all day long.

   I've been in the computer industry for 40 years and have seen a lot in my time.  Back in the days of keypunch machines - yes folks spent an inordinate amount of time at the keyboard, it was a way of life them but not now.

   Also, there are numerous aids that can be applied, i.e. gel pads for mice and keyboards which I have not found one person that didn't like them.  They are a Godsend!

   One final note.  I doubt that what you saw in FWW is not a whole lot different than what you are likely to see anywhere.  So why are you singling FWW out from the rest?

   If you're really into this ergo thang might I suggest a look see at this: http://www.robotics.com/chair/

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   Edited 10/20/2007 9:50 am ET by KiddervilleAcres

4. 
   forestgirl | Oct 21, 2007 06:01am | #10

   "Such a tray is since many years ago considered harmful to your health by physiotherapists."  This is news to me, and I'm a grizzled veteran of repetitive stress injuries in the work environment.  In the mid-1980's and again in the early 1990's, I was probably knowledgeable enough to hire out as a consultant for people trying to design an ergonomic computer environment, what with all the evaluations, custom-selected chairs/desks/equipment, etc., etc., etc.

   Maybe thinking has changed, but IMHO, if you rest your arms on a table top, you're bound to hunch up your shoulders, at least a little bit, which would wreak havoc on the trapezius muscles and your neck, and probably even your shoulders, I'm betting.  In addition, how the heck do you rest your arms on a table top without leaning forward and having horrible upper body posture?!  The idea is for the keyboard to be at such a height and distance that your arms hang in the appropriate place, at the appropriate angle while still maintaining good posture through the back, neck, head.  Not to mean rigid posture, but just good posture.

   All that being said, position is only a part of the equation that causes RSI's.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have had that second bout of problems!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/20/2007 11:06 pm by forestgirl

1. 
   MaxYak | Oct 21, 2007 07:35pm | #12

   Forestgirl's comment about shoulder problems arising from placing the forearms on the desk with the keyboard exactly matches my experience.

   I am currently undergoing physical therapy to correct shoulder problems caused by the hunched-over position (which I adopted about 4 years ago as a direct result of getting a desk without the keyboard tray for the first time in 20 years of working with computers) arising from having the keyboard and mouse too far in front of me.

   The only way I've found to avoid a hunched position when at the computer is to pull the keyboard and mouse almost to the edge of the desk.  Now I can sit up with my shoulders back, reach everything, and my shoulder is feeling MUCH better.  When I forget and spend a day back in my old position, the shoudler gets worse again.

   I think the answer is that one size/style of work does not fit all.  There are too many variables, especially including what you do when you're NOT at the keyboard.  It's dangerous to oversimplify ergonomics to the One True Position.To the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.

5. 
   WillGeorge | Oct 21, 2007 04:33pm | #11

   Geir

   No expert here on anything and what you say I'm sure is true.

   However, I have used computers since computer memory was ALOT of little ferrite 'O's and copper wire sense lines.

   I have never found the keyboard to be a problem in use. Well, at least it never made my wrists or arms hurt.

   HOWEVER, that little Mouse is a different matter! I think most folks these days use that little critter 100 times more than their keyboard and is the REAL problem.

   I do not have a picture at the moment but I have made several computer tables for my children and after thinking of the mouse issue I made them a 'Z' shaped table/stand for using the mouse. A Z is what it looks like. The top and bottom are horizontal and the vertical slanted member is adjustable for height so that the elbow is flat and the wrist is comfortable using a standard mouse. Keeps you from bending the wrist upward.. The Z shape lets the bottom slip under a sofa or table.. whatever..

   OK, so what do I know.. Works for me...

6. 
   bones | Oct 22, 2007 12:33am | #14

   I have to disagree with your generalized statement.  As someone who has conducted numerous ergo assessments of computer workstations, there is no one best way.  It depends on the work, the height of the person, and many other factors to come to the problem.  You should have a good chair, and there are a lot of things that make a good chair i.e. lumbar support, 5 point base, adjustable height, and other.  Your hands should be  in a point to be in a neutral position.  Terminal height is critical. Different heights for different folks.  If you wear bi-focals, it will be different than a 6'2" person, from a 4'11" person. You should not be cocking the head back or down to see.  For typing position, do the pencil test.  Put your hands on the keyboard in your normal typing position.  Place a pencil extending from the back of your wrist to between your middle finger and index finger.  To be in the neutral position, there should be no space between your wrist and arm and back of the hand.  If you have a v develop(your wrist cocked up), or you have a big space between your wrist and the back of your hand (wrist cocked down), you will be prone to C tunnel issues.  When I conduct assessments, I look at it all.  Do you reach for materials a lot.  Do you hold a  phone on your shoulder trapped by your head which indicates you need a hands free set.  I have recommended keyboard trays be taken away, and in some cases added.  It just depends on the person and what is comfortable.  Take breaks! that is critical as well.  Finally, for a home use, unless you are doing some serious keying without breaks it will not matter. 

   Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
   If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
   And if it stops moving, subsidize it.