Replies

1. 
   GrouchieGrum | Apr 15, 2003 05:16pm | #1

   You can use either shellac or varnish(via multiple coats) to fill grain... Generally you fill the pores by applying a number coats of finish, and then cutting back the coats by either scraping or sanding. Its kind of a fill and build thing... Your pits will eventually even out with the rest of the finish.  Hope that makes sense...

   You can not use oil, wax or oil/varnish mixtures to do this fill and build process though, since those finishes do not ever cure hard enough.

   Definitely recommend you play with samples before you do the main piece though, but you already knew that.. hehe

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 15, 2003 07:11pm | #2

   According to the reading I've done (mostly Jeff Jewitt, but others also) filling with varnish or shellac does not work in the long run, because the filling eventually sinks below the level of the wood.  This effect doesn't show up for some (often lengthy) time after the finishing is completed.  Hence the technique of using paste filler.

   Reading your description, does the "cutting back" actually fill the pores with a sanding mixture? 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   GrouchieGrum | Apr 15, 2003 11:40pm | #3

   no, from my reading(mostly Bob Flexner), and past experiences(mostly in paints). I have always been under the impression that sanding sealers etc dont really work.. well.. they work, but any kind of finish(varnish, shellac, etc) does predominately the same task(sealing and filling the pores of wood)..  A finish is supposed to be a sealer in its own right, correct?

   so on to your main question. Lets use an analogy to explain cutting back the finish:

       You have a bunch of potholes in your road(pits and pores in a piece of wood). So you come along and repave the road with a 1 " thick coating of blacktop(your first coat of finish). but lets say the potholes are 2" deep.. so you laid that lair of asphalt down, and you still see the potholes... so you lay another 2 layers of 1" thick asphalt down.  so now your potholes are actually 1 inch above the "original" height of the paved street, but the new street is actually 3" above the original street.. so now you go along the road with a grinder(this is the cutting back phase) and take the top 2" of street off the top... you now have a street that is all at the same level(no more potholes) PLUS, you have 1" of protection for the original street itself , and you have filled in your potholes and now they are level with the new street.... so in theory you have not just placed a spot patch on the potholes, which always seem to break apart because of different expansion and contraction than the surface they are filling.  You have made them a part of the street once more, thus even more ability to fight expansion and contraction of patches...  Granted no one is going to scrape off the top of a street, that would be a grandiose and expensive process.. but in wood it is a doable process, and in fact a lot of people do utilize this process.. Hrmmm.... I guess if you are sanding down you are actually taking lairs off and that top 1" of the pothole is actually lair 3, whereas the street is back to lair 1.... pleh.. I dont know.. quit making me think!!!

   Okay, Lets look at it in another view, a shellac is an evaporative finish, so each additional lair you add actually melds with the previous lair. If you did the fill and build with a shellac you actually will have one thick coat that you are cutting down to a flat surface. plus an evaporative finish dries from the bottom up. So in the analogy above, the lairs of the road, if they are a shellac, are actually one thick layer as opposed to 3 seperate layers...

   Varnish is a reactive finish, and as such each layer is a seperate unit in its own right(also needs to cure before the next layer can be applied). So, if using a varnish, you would prolly be at a semi disadvantage, because like I said in the analogy you would have your potholes at layer 3 and your main road at layer 1...

   the advantages of Shellac are that it is excellent at slowing down water vapor transfer(hence less expansion and contraction), and quicker to apply. The disadvantage is that it has only moderate durability to water, solvent, scratches, etc.

   the advantages of a varnish is that it has excellent durability for water, solvent, scratches, etc. but has a tendency to yellow over time and is tougher(dust falling into the finish during the cure time), and slower(longer cure times) to apply..

   I am by FAR no expert.. I can definitely see the point in using a paste wood filler. It is quicker to fill in the pores/pits, but from some of the reading on the Jeff Jewitt boards, paste wood fillers are also prone to shrinkage over time(granted also a often lengthy frame of time)... Also, I dont think you can use the paste wood filling as a topcoat, can you? So, he/she is going to have to put a top coat of some type on....

   guess the door goes both ways...

   I guess, in my own view, I dont know if adding another chemical to my finish is going to really make me that happy in the end... I have never used a paste wood filler, but I keep envisioning little droplets under my finish that might not match said finish, and detract from the beauty of said product...but I know it wouldnt be a product that sells, if it didnt work..... Also, maybe its the computer geek in me, but if you keep adding things to the mix, you are also adding more points of failure.....

   I hope that analogy and the rest makes sense... I may be wrong in my thought processes, and would like to hear other points of view on the subject... Keep me on my toes FG, you make me learn things by questioning me and by my questioning you.... 

   PS - for some reason I was spelling Layer as Lair, and I am lazy enough to not want to go back and change all the spellings.. /snicker

   PPS - this past week is really expanding my mind on finishes.. seems like the same questions keep getting asked, and as I offer up my opinions I am learning even more while trying to give correct and accurate information... problem is, I have changed my mind like 4 times in the past week on how I want to finish my current project.. hehe

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 16, 2003 06:30pm | #7

   Grouchie, a sanding sealer and a grain filler are two completely(!) different beasts. 

   A sanding sealer is akin to a washcoat -- thinned shellac for instance -- which stiffens the wood fibers. 

   A grain filler is a paste, either oil- or water-based, that is applied either after or before staining the wood and worked into the pores of the wood, excess removed, then sanded.  When done properly (and I've had my successes and failures, emphasis on the latter), it provides an absolutely smooth surface for subsequent application of the finish, yielding a mirror-like finish.  The devil is in the details of application, especially with oil-based fillers. 

   It is my understanding that this type of surface cannot be achieved with any kind of finish being built up in the pores of the wood because that finish will not stay perfectly level and contiguous with the surface of the wood, and some day when you look over at that pretty, smooth, mirror-like finish, it ain't gonna look like that anymore.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   GrouchieGrum | Apr 16, 2003 07:43pm | #9

   I understand a sealer and a paste wood filler are different beasts.  As you say, a thinned shellac can be a sealer.

   I guess my analogy just didnt explain my thoughts.... from my research and experience, you can use a finish as a pore/pit filler, it just takes multiple coats of a shellac/polyurethane/laqcuer/whatever, and sanding to get the finish flat and even.  I just finished a Cherry dining table with Laqcuer, and over the process of sanding, I was able to fill and build the pores/pits in this table top to where they are no longer seen. We didnt use a Paste wood filler in that tabletop....

   Also, I hear what you are saying about a finish fading or sinking into the wood over time, but if the paste wood filler can shrink over time, arent you still most likely going to have to refinish later anyways? 

   Its like six of one half dozen of the other.. The finish will fade, but the paste wood filler can shrink(thus I am going to see the pores/pits again at a later date)... not to mention you still need to do said finish over the top of the pores, and if said pores shrink then whats to stop your finish from sinking into the open pores?  I guess its all a matter of which will take longer to start showing its problems.

2. 
   GeeSeaWhy | Apr 16, 2003 10:56pm | #10

   It depends what you start with too. Cherry is a fine-grained wood which generally does not need filled. Very different from an open-grained wood like oak.

   Graeme

3. 
   GrouchieGrum | Apr 17, 2003 04:43pm | #18

   hehe Cherry was a bad choice as an example.. I have received good results in the past on oak though as well with the fill and build sanding.. but I digress..

   BG, Dont do caffeine anymore, but I get your point... sometimes I post a message, and as I write I hash out the issue at hand... kinda helps me clear up the whole process(in my mind).... might be a bit hard to follow, but it works for me.. hehe

   Still a bit leary of the paste wood fillers, but as I stated earlier, I havent really used them so do not have anything to go by... But I have had good experiences filling and building in the past.. maybe, possibly, a bit more laborious, but I double checked one of my oak projects last night, and it is 3+ years old, and I am not seeing any pits/pores reshowing up... didnt even notice any uneven areas on the top... maybe I just been lucky so far...

2. 
   besea | Apr 17, 2003 03:28am | #15

   Hey Grouchie... ease up on the caffeine before explanations (although I got it ! ) :-)

1. 
   TheDryad | Apr 17, 2003 04:17am | #16

   Danish oil is so perfect for wood. It soaks in deeply and just shines with a deepened appeal you want in a oil. Wax it up a bit after the first 24 hrs from final coat.

   Dryad

2. 
   ron61 | Apr 17, 2003 02:08pm | #17

   I would like to see some pics. if there is any.

3. 
   forestgirl | Apr 17, 2003 07:01pm | #19

   I've been waiting for the owners of the wet-sand project (a.k.a., jersey case) to send me pictures, but they haven't yet.  I see the husband once a week or so in my shop, so I'll remind him (again).  Not sure how much pics will help you since the wood surface is so narrow.

   Maybe I'll send him an email and ask for one close-up of the side.  That might prompt him to take the pics.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   booch | Apr 18, 2003 07:15am | #20

   Filling grain pores?

   If you are going for the dead flat finish use the poly and wetsand between coats with water and 200 to 300 grit. Lightly lap the surface then do it again. Using the Professional finish It takes 4 coats. the first is quick, the second fills more voids, the 3rd fills the mistakes in sanding. the fourth is a really thin final coat. Pic's later. Goin to Florida with the family.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?

2. 
   Thom1 | Apr 19, 2003 03:37am | #22

   French polishers use shelac to fill the grain on many fine instruments and pieces of furniture.  There are many ways, an initial seal coat of shellac, followed by the use a bag of polishing compound to deposit abrasive on the surface, and a fad to work up a slury.  Some use non drying oils over the finish to produce slurry, and seal coat over that with the shellac.  Shellac has that amazing capacity to contain seeping drippy stuff.  Or you shoot lacquer, smear epoxy, or french polish a base coat of crazu glue and then polish over that, yuck.  I have polished on some drying oil and then lacquered over that.  For any of these techniques to work, the slury has to be the same colour as the body of the wood, or at least a compatible colour.

   If the grain does show through, that isn't the biggest problem for a polisher, because they can continuously apply layers of polish over the old finish, restoring the luster and building as they go.  Sounds easy!

2. 
   booch | Apr 16, 2003 12:34am | #4

   Polyurethane works too. Try Flecto varathane or the Pro version (only in gallons) Thin hard and clear. That is my standard formula for a finish.

   I've gotten away from changing colors of the wood. I figure it is what it is and if I didn't like it I should have chosen differently. I use the clear watco to bring out the depth or the interior color of the wood. The colors in any stain I'd like to think I can see. Occasionally I'll color it with the black walnut. or cherry or whatever to try and match existing aged wood but it always seems like a facade. Then again a coat of color aged for an hour or two then wiped off with clear watco as the solvent it pretty subtle. Just an opinion. Red Oak is tough to change.

   Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
3. 
   GeeSeaWhy | Apr 16, 2003 08:47am | #5

   I don't think shellac or varnish will fill the grain. I have a turned red oak bowl with about four coats of shellac on it so far and the grain is still obvious. If you want the surface to be completely smooth, paste wood filler is what you need. (You may have to hunt for it - this is not the wood putty/nail hole filler all the hardware stores carry). Jeff Jewitt's site (http://www.homesteadfinishing.com) is worth a look.

   HTH

   Graeme

4. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 16, 2003 05:40pm | #6

   Attempting to fill the grain with shellac or varnish is a long process that may not be a good long term approach. Products called grain fillers are what are needed for deep pored woods like oak. With some fillers, you dye the wood first, then fill. With others, the coloring is in the filler.

   Flexner gives good instructions on using fillers.

   BTW, grain fillers are not sanding sealer. Sanding sealer is an undercoat to be used under thin finishes for rapid build. But even a sanding sealer will not do a good job of filling oak.

5. 
   forestgirl | Apr 16, 2003 06:35pm | #8

   Ron, getting focused on your question (novel idea, LOL) are you trying to get the "mirror-like finish" that comes to mind when filling wood pores is mentioned, or are you trying to achieve something short of that?

   You can partially fill the pores, and cut down on the amount of dark stain they absorb, by using a wet-sanding application of the Watco.  See:

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=10221.11

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   Roger1 | Apr 17, 2003 12:48am | #11

   Filling the grain in Red Oak is easy. Start with the raw sanded oak, at 150 grit or higher. Fill the grain by rubing a wood filler, water base, into the grain. I like to thin the filler so it gets down into the pores. Use a slightly darker filler than the wood to accent the grain. Wait a few minutes for it to start to dry, then rub off the excess across the grain. When dry, sand again. You will need a few coats to fill all the oak pores. Then use your Watco to bring out the wood colors, or just use a oil base polly to bring out grain and protect the wood. I got a glass like finish on a red oak board. Have fun. Roger

7. 
   Alan | Apr 17, 2003 01:31am | #12

   Ron,

   Forest Girl gave you the easiest way to fill the grain with the materials you mentioned:  wet sand the Watco.

   Flood the surface with Watco (or any oil finish for that matter) and begin wet sanding with about a 320 or 400 wet and dry paper on a sanding block.  Keep sanding, and changing the paper every now and again, until you develop a thick mixture of the oil and sanding dust.  (It should be about the thickness of heavy cream.)  Switch to a very fine wet and dry paper and sand diagonally across the grain; don't be afraid to bear down a bit.  This will force the slurry down into the pores.  Stop when you seem to have even coverage.  You can add sanding dust to the surface, and sand it in, if it looks like the pores aren't filled completely.  Follow the directions on the can for how long to wait before you wipe the excess off the surface.  (IIRC Watco has directions for this process on the can.) 

   The result is a silky smooth finish with the grain filled.  If the grain isn't completely filled you can repeat the process when the finish has dried.  When the oil has fully cured you can put another finish on top; but the surface you get by this process is so beautiful you may not want to.

   Alan

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 17, 2003 01:57am | #13

   Alan, thanks for the vote of confidence.  I found the wet-sanding approach to be very user-friendly and attractive when finished.  Have to say, though, that I veered away from the manufacturer's directions.  I purposely wiped off excess right after each sanding stint, so that the oil didn't sink additionally into the pores, and afterward bleed out.  Also, since the particular oak I was working with had some pretty big pores, I started with 220 grit, then on 2nd or 3rd sanding stint, went to 320. 

   Also, after experimenting I found I liked to keep a thinner film on the wood so that there was some drag, especially on the first couple coats.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   ron61 | Apr 17, 2003 03:18am | #14

   How about some pics. of the project with the wet sand finish. 

2. 
   Alan | Apr 19, 2003 02:23am | #21

   Forestgirl,

   I bow to your greater experience.

   I've tried this technique with three different oils on small samples.  The only real project I've used it on was an oak blanket chest finished with BLO.  I loved the look and feel.

   Alan

1. 
   forestgirl | Apr 19, 2003 07:54pm | #24

   Oak can really vary as to how open the grain is, thereby affecting the tendence to absorb and then bleed.  I learned this the hard way, after doing practice samples with some molding scraps, and then having my project turn into a mess.  Yikes!

   Would love to see the blanket chest.  Chances are, the oak you used was of better grain quality than what I used for my last project.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 4/19/2003 12:58:43 PM ET by forestgirl

1. 
   Gretchen | Apr 19, 2003 08:18pm | #25

   I have read on another board that some oak (red?) has a cell structure that is like being made up of straws. Therefore the Watco can bleed out for a very long time.Gretchen

2. 
   forestgirl | Apr 20, 2003 12:46am | #26

   The "straw-like" structures (open pores) aren't exclusive to red oak, but they can be very predominant in that wood.  The way the lumber is cut and milled can exacerbate the exposure of those pores.   The wood I finished for the jersey case was a prime example, but the wet-sanding approach worked great on it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 20, 2003 04:14am | #29

   I believe that the red oak cell structure you describe is the one that runs up the grain, not across the grain. I know you can blow smoke in the end of a board and it exits at the other end. Never seen it done across the grain.

   The reason oil finishes weep is not unique to oaks. It is a characteristic of any open pore wood.

4. 
   Alan | Apr 20, 2003 01:28am | #27

   Forestgirl,

   I would love to show you the blanket chest.  Alas, it is no longer in my possession--I made it for a friend.  Even if I still had it you would have to come to my house to see it:  neither digital camera nor scanner have I.  (Welcome to poverty row.)

   As I now recall the experience, it didn't take all that long to get a thick slurry that completely filled the grain.  I did, however, sand in the second coat as well.  As I said, I was very happy with the result.

   Alan

5. 
   forestgirl | Apr 20, 2003 01:40am | #28

   I guess I'll just have to dream about it!  We have an extra scanner, if you'd like one.  I bought it for my sweetie when he got his job out-of-state, and he never uses it.  Works with Win95 and Win98.

   I'm eager to try wet-sanding on maple.  Talked to the WWer at our semi-local tool place, and he said it can really look gorgeous.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

8. 
   mrles | Apr 19, 2003 09:13am | #23

   I have used orange shellac mixed 50/50 with boiled linseed oil to fill grain before. Mop on a good coat of linseed oil, let soak overnight, wipe off excess. Apply your shellac mix let set overnight or until it drys, buff with 0000 steel wool apply next coat, keep applying until the grain is filled.

   Gods Peace this Holy Week

   les