Has anyone used Watco Danish Oil on their projects. I believe it is a oil/varnish blend of some sort, and I am attempting to use it on a maple with walnut trimmed desk I have just built. I have followed the directions on the can and I am not pleased with the results. The label advertises a “warm glow” finish……whatever that is, but after three coats and hand rubbing the product in with 0000 steel wool on the last coat, there doesn’t appear to be much finish at all. The only difference in the wood I can see is it appears a bit darker and has an oily feel and smell. My question is this: How many coats will it take to see any significant sheen to the finish? I did not want the desk to be super glossy, and yet I do desire some shine. Am I doing something wrong? I do realize from reading past messages, that there is only a small amount of varnish in this product. Should I let it dry and then topcoat with an oil based product? Thanks for any help.
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Replies
Dalewood,
I really enjoy the Watco products. I am a HUGE fan of the Danish Oil they manufacture. Here is what I do.
First Coat - Really soak the piece good. Let it sit for roughly 15 minutes making sure to keep it "wet". Then after the 15 minutes, wipe off the excess.
Second Coat - Wet Sand with 320 paper and Watco Danish Oil. This creates a "slurry" of Oil and the sawdust/fibers from the sand paper. This help fill the wood. I like to wet sand the entire project real good and then wipe off the excess
Third Coat - Wet Sand with 320 paper and Watco Danish Oil again!
Fourth Coat - A very light wipe of Danish Oil on a rag.
Now, to finish it off I go two different directions...depends on the use of the piece. I either wax the piece or I thin some Polyurethane and then wipe on SEVERAL coats of VERY thin polyurethane.
I have been extremely pleased with this finishing technique.
Yes, you are correct about the "sheen" of just Watco. It is not meant to be a glossy product.
Cheers!
darkmagneto
Dalewood
Ditto Magneto for the most part. I ocassionally wax with Butchers wax and get what I feel is decent results!
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Dalewood
You are not alone. I had the same results with the Watco finish as well. I am finishing some cherry and it now looks like a slightly darker shade of cherry with a slight oil smell and feel. Not quite the warm glow I was looking for. From what I've read, including the post from Magneto you need some sort of sanding oil slurry mix and a lot of time. There is another variation of this on a post called "Finishing cherry advice" That I think I am going to try. Anyway, not much help. Just wanted to let you know that it's not just you.
Chris
I've done a few pieces with Watco, and as DM suggests, wet sanding is an excellent way to go. For other readers who might happen along, I'd mention, though, that very open-pore woods such as red oak can be challenging if you use the flooding method for the first application. When finishing red oak, I like to wet sand that first coat also.
Be sure the Watco is cured before putting on a top finish.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Dalewood,
Here in California, Watco Danish Oil changed their formulation back in the late '80s because of increasingly strict environment regulations. Their product was wonderful before they reformulated, and only so-so after - IMO.
After trying several other products, I've settled on Liberon Finishing Oil. It's wonderful stuff!
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Here is the answer to all your questions :-) Excellent article on Watco.
http://www.wwch.org/Technique/FinishesRL/OilFin.htm
Alan - planesaw
Excellent, excellent link. Thanks.
Dalewood, As the 1st poster to your question that is the way I have always used Watco Danish Oil, that has always been my preferred method of finish because of the simpleness of it. I do think there is a difference between the formula now and 15 years ago. I used to be able to tolerate the smell of it but not any more. But it will take a good 3 weeks of drying for the smell to go away if you have a sensitive noise as I do. After mine was good and dry I would then put a good coat of Lebrion past wax on top then buff to finish it out.
Good luck Marsh
Dalewood,
You are not alone in your experience. My feeling is that the wood itself had better be polished before you apply watco if you want a shine. About like putting kerosene on for a finish IMO. I've had better luck with Minwax Antique oil, or Deftoil, or Formby'y tung oil finish as far as building a finish with a degree of gloss. I generally am finishing over a dye and/or stain, so the sanding while oil is wet is not an option, maybe that is the trick to using watco.
Regards,
Ray
WAtco needs a top finish of some sort. It is not a glossy or even "glowing" finish by nature. It also does not have much protection to it for a tabletop, for example. Wax is also not a durable top coating for a tabletop. Use some wipe on varnish to create a good finish.Gretchen
Gretchen, with all due respect whenever talk turns to oil or oil and wax finishes you rarely fail to chime in with their supposed inadequacy and admonition to use a varnish either instead of or on top of an oil finish.
Clearly, you've never seen a well done oil finish. You also apparently assume that everybody must dine as if they were in a Medieval mead-hall. Watco is in actuality a very thin varnish and it is quite possible to achieve surface build, and I can absolutely assure you that a Watco or even a plain BLO finish will exhibit sheen and 'glow.' You exhibit an almost appalling lack of knowledge when you continue to insist otherwise.
You're limiting yourself. Varnish is great. We all use varnish finishes. Most of us do shellac as well. I don't personally do lacquer because I don't spray, but I've sent more than one piece out to somebody who does. And of course a lot of us do oil finishes.
I don't think anybody here advocates being a one-trick pony.
A question. Where do you all buy your varnish? All I ever see at my Lowes or Home Depot is polyurethane, either water or oil based. Is their a big difference between poly and varnish? I can order the varnish but I would rather buy it local. Thanks
You now need to go to a "real" paint store to get non-poly varnish, at least in my city.Gretchen
Gretchen, I called Sherwin Williams here locally. They did not have varnish and only carried polyurethane. I guess I will keep trying.
I'm not sure when you last applied the Watco, but I would suggest you wait about a week and take another look at it. Maybe show it to someone else (who will probably love it). Then consider the next step. You probably should use some kind of varnish, but sometimes you need to take a break to reflect on what you've got and where to go. You might even decide you're done! Good luck, Todd
Dalewood, I'm able to get varnish at both Ace Hardware and Lumbermen's Building Supply. Keep trying! Good luck.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks Forestgirl, I am still looking around for some. Almost every store I go to has Minwax poly, but none have had varnish......interesting. Must not be much demand for varnish around these parts.
Since you may have to go mail order, I'll ask: Have you ever visited Jeff Jewitt's "Homestead Finishing" site. Great resource, quality products, good forum, educational info.http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG, Yes I have been to that website but it may be time to take another look at it. Thanks for the reminder and the link. You all have been a great help.
Which is better, mortise and tenon or biscuits?
Jack, I am not sure if you meant to send this email to me or not as we have been discussing Watco danish oil. I think mortise and tenon joints have stood the test of time and are a tried and true method to fasten two peices of wood together. As for biscuits, I know they help with alignment, although I am not real sure how strong they are. I have heard both pro's and con's with them as far as assembling face frames and such. Personally I only like my biscuits on a plate with eggs and bacon and a little saw mill gravy on top<grin>. Sorry....I'm from the south. Have a good one buddy.
Why don't you break down and order what you need from a mailorder supplier? Garrett Wade, Star Finishing Supply....
Dalewood,
I get Waterlox Original at my local Ace/True Value hardware store - it's a nice varnish (check out their web page at http://www.waterlox.com). For a light, almost clear varnish, Pratt & Lambert paint stores have a product called "#38."
Polyurethane is a type of varnish. It's made with urethane resins or a blend of urethane & alkyd (usually). It's the most durable type of varnish. Some brands of poly are very nice (e.g., General Finishes Arm-R-Seal). Do a web search for these brands and see if you find some local suppliers;
Waterlox Original Wood Finish - Tung oil & phenolic resin interior varnish with exceptional durability (use to be marketed as a Gym Floor Finish). Rich amber color. Thinner than Behlen "RockHard" and can be brushed or wiped. Waterlox (.com) also has a few other finishes to choose from including a poly varnish.
General Finishes' Arm-R-Seal Gloss - A blend of tung oil and alkyd and urethane resins that produces a high-gloss. Has a medium amber color. It's the "tung oil" finish used by David Marks on his TV show; though it's really a nice looking wiping poly.
Pratt & Lambert #38 - Alkyd varnish with light coloring like the new McCloskeys Heirloom. Good to retain the light color of white woods like maple.
Old Masters Super Varnish - An alkyd varnish with amber coloring. Dries pretty fast. Sands well and has low odor. Brushes well without thinning.
Behlen RockHard Table Top Varnish - Phenolic resins and tung oil create a rich amber color that darkens with time. An extremely hard finish with excellent resistance to abrasions, water, alcohol, chemicals, etc. This finish rubs out well.
Daly's ProFin - A urethane and alkyd resin blend finish that dries hard and fast. Pale yellow color.
Paul
Thank you Paul, That is very good info. I have a local Ace here and I may take trip there today. In the mean time, I think I will let the peice dry for a while and see where I am at in a week or so. All of you have been a great help and everyone has given some good advice.
dalewood,
I did a shaker laptop desk with Danish Oil. The wood was So. American Cherry (top) and maple breadboards and carcas...no stain....just 5-6 coats of oil....with Watco wax afterwards. I was not especially impressed...but I figured it's shaker and looking a little less was okay.
The piece sits in the dining room right now which we use weekly. It's become somewhat of a joke in our house because every week I eat in there I ask my wife if she has waxed the piece..she swears she hasn't. Over the first 2-3 months the piece appears to have developed a beautiful finish...that was not there in the beginning. I don't know if this it standard for Watco....or maybe I did not wait long enough to dry....but I am very pleased.
Thats too funny BG!!!!! I think I will go out to shop right now and see if my desk has improved any!!!!! Your wife may be pullin one on you and re-waxing when you have your back turned. Anyway, I am glad that your are happy with your desk and I hope it just keeps on getting better. Have a good one buddy.
Dalewood
BG has discovered by mistake what I dicovered by mistake several years ago. It's going to take time to get a good finish with Watco. The can directions should be eliminated. The post earlier with the approach is excellent. I learned two steps there I don't do. I will try them to see if I get even better results.
In our world of fast food drive-thru's, go-go-go, rush-here-rush-there Watco doesn't fit in. It is not even a contender for production as you can rush all you want putting it on, but it's best results can't be achieved with speed of application. It requires time and patience me thinks. Not everyone has either or both.
I prefer varnish and the poly's in kitchens and baths. The Watco gets the call for low traffic areas with me. Properly applied it has warmth and glow. Improperly applied it is cold and dull. A loss of patience making the application gets you somewhere in between.
Pick the spot, avoid short-cuts and let it mature and you got a nice finish. If you are a fast pace junkie, I would leave the can of Watco out of the shopping cart!
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The key to Watco, BLO, and Tung oil finish is the amount of time between apps. of whatever product you're using. You've got to be patient and let it sit. I follow the Tage Frid method when using Watco - I never wipe down the first flood coat at all. I let it sit for three or four days and then start successive applications, which dissolve the residue that dried from the first application. Successive apps, at least six, are always done 48 hours apart at a minimum. More if it's humid.
Boss,
Yes, patience is a virtue in applying these finishes. But, using ANY varinsh-oil mixture, leaving a significant amount of residue after any application is pretty much a recipe for failure.
Subsequent applications do NOT disolve residue if the residue is varnish. If the finish is nothing but an oil (tung, BLO) in solvent, then, yes each subsequent application 48 hours later, even 2 weeks later will do the job because the oil takes months, if ever to fully polymerize.
But most of the commercial preparations contain some varnish, possibly a poly. The inexperienced finisher, in a hurry to get done is less likely to adequately level the hardened residue of an uneven varnish film. And the little nubs that remain can be VERY obstinate. It needs at least steel wool, if not 320-400 grit paper to do the job. The advice to wipe "dry" at the end of each application serves much better.
VL
I don't think I said that I do this with varnish, did I? Watco has so little varnish in it this method will work. Picked this up from one of Tage Frid's books. It works. I make furniture for a living. I know what I'm doing.
After the first application all subsequent apps, again at least six, are all sanded with 400 to 800 grit paper and wiped down to remove the slurry.
"Picked this up from one of Tage Frid's books. "
I'm not aware of anything Tage Frid has written that's more recent than 20 years. Watco has changed at least a few times in that period. I lost interest in it longer ago than that. It varies from time to time. Some batches have quite a bit of varnish.
"It works. I make furniture for a living. I know what I'm doing."
Then why are you using Watco?
No matter how little varnish it has, (unless a particular batch has zero), subsequent applications don't disolve the hardened residue of a previous coat.
VL
What about pen marks? My thinned varnished desktop (pratt & Lambert, not spar) with 4 or 5 coats has taken on plenty of pen marks. Is there an alternative to covering the top? Todd
VL, I have to agree with you. I met a guy who worked for the company that made Watco about 10 years ago. He told me that Watco was pretty close to 40% varnish.
You are also correct that subsequent applications of an oil/varnish will not dissolve the prior coats. However, many apply subsequent coats by sanding it in. This sanding opens up some of the pores and some additional finish does get into the wood.
Watco, and their competitors, originally formulated the oil/varnish products to mimic the finish of true oils. The addition of the resin (varnish) to the product was to overcome the relatively non-protective nature of the true oils. The varnish provided some water and watervapor protection and increased the durablility/longevity of the finish verses true oil finishes. It was intended to provide a finish that left the feel of the grain intact. Now days, most folks want a smooth feel to their wood surfaces so they apply multiple coats and go through other steps to fully fill the grain and get the same type of finish that you get with a standard film finish product like shellac, lacquer and varnish.
Personally, I use an oil/varnish finish whenever I want a "close to the wood" feel and look to the project. If I want a look and feel of a totally smooth finish, then I use a film finish. It's a lot faster than build multiple coats of an oil or oil/varnish finish. With appropriate "finishing of the finish", it is difficult to tell the difference.
With all due respect, I doubt seriously that Watco is 40% varnish resin by volume. Don't see how it could be anywhere near that. Formby Tung Oil finish maybe, Watco Danish Oil, no way.
The build seems way to slow for a product that contains that much resin, but I'm not a chemist.
At any rate, the flood first coat that is not wiped off is a Tage Frid technique that I have heard of as being effective (I'm sure I'm not alone as he is widely read - I think somebody else in this thread mentioned it too). This with Danish oil products only - I agree that this would not work with formulations that have substantial first coat build. Watco certainly does not have first coat build as I think anybody who has used it can readily attest. Again, I have to doubt your friend's assertion that Watco Danish oil is 40% varnish.
Edited 3/15/2004 11:51 am ET by CHASSTANFORD
Edited 3/15/2004 11:59 am ET by CHASSTANFORD
First, Formby's is a thinned varnish, not an oil/varnish blend. Formby's is approximately 50% varnish and 50% mineral spirits with a slight amount of drier added. It contains no real tung oil at all.
The Watco is approximately 25% varnish, 40% linseed oil and 35% mineral spirits. Once the thinner evaporates, you are left with about 40% varnish and 60% linseed oil. Of course, the build is slow because the first coat effectively seals the pores of the wood and subsequent coats are not absorbed. When you then wipe the wet coat, you are removing almost all of both the oil and the varnish.
I really don't want to get into the discussion about how to use Watco. I'll only say that manufacturers want the user to have a good experiece with their product. They spend lots of time developing the techniques they feel will get the best results from their product. The instructions on the label are the best place to look. Watco was originally intended to be a substitute for a true oil finish but one that had more durability and water resistance. It was an "in the wood" type of penetrating finish.
Some have used the product in ways that go beyond the instructions provided by the manufacturer looking for a finish that is more of a film finish than a penetrating finish. That's fine as long as the user know what he/she wants to accomplish and have the skill to get that result.
Personally, I use Watco--and other oil/varnish finishes--as penetrating finishes when that is the look and feel that I want. If I want a film finish, I go with a film finish.
Neither you or Gretchen are right or wrong. You are each using the product in a different way.
Edited 3/15/2004 5:37 pm ET by Howie
I apply Watco in precisely the same way I do plain BLO - a minimum of six apps over an extended period of time giving each application a chance to dry/cure (whatever terminology you care to use). Not surprisingly, the Watco results in greater sheen. I imagine I'm getting some surface build by the sixth app; of course a lot depends on the species. However, the look one gets with the slight surface build achieved after successive apps of Watco is far different from the look one gets with a regular varnish, although both result in certain amounts of surface build, respectively. At least this is so to my eye... maybe I'm just dreaming it.
One can thin a 'regular' (spar, etc.) varnish with mineral spirits/turps and BLO to create a Watco proxy I suppose. Garrett Hack uses a finish like this. I'll try to pull the exact formula. He did an article a few years ago. I think it's roughly 1/3 spar, 1/3 BLO, and 1/3 turps. His formulation builds faster than Watco but more slowly than a traditionally formulated, off-the-shelf varnish (obviously more slowly than the spar straight from the can). I guess it's really in between Watco and a regular varnish. One can get into the 'long oil' terminology and all that at this point.
Ultimately, I use Watco as a proxy for BLO unless a particularly well-informed client insists on a plain linseed oil finish but that doesn't happen very often. I use plain BLO a lot on stuff I build for my own use. I guess I'm particulary well-informed. (joke)
Edited 3/15/2004 6:41 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD
You're right, Frid probably did write that book twenty some-odd years ago. I've been doing this for a living longer than that.
Moving on...
How, specifically, has *Watco* changed Venicia? I don't doubt it has (mostly to meet newer environmental standards), but you seem to have some insight as to what particular changes in the formula make it a lesser product than it was twenty years ago.
I assume that you've used it regularly over a period of years and can provide specifics on how its performance has degraded to the point you quit using it. Or, did you try it a few times, didn't like it for whatever reason and decided not to use it again?
If you were an avid user who can state with specificity why you no longer like the product then do tell. How exactly has it failed you?
If you simply don't care for *mostly* oil finishes that's one thing. That is more a matter of taste.
Edited 3/18/2004 3:56 pm ET by BossCrunk
I have been using Watco for problely 25 years on teak,cherry and walnut. I am able to get any luster I want from flat to high gloss. One of the more important steps is how you wipe the oil off. The first coats are easy as they get sanded with 320 paper but for the third and forth coats you have to be very consistant with your strokes. Fold up a clean tee shirt to 3 by3 inches four or five layers thick, wipe back and forth over laping each pass by one third. Keep the same side of the wet pad on the wood for the entire peice. The rag has to be as wide and flat as possibe to spread the oil evenly. The more you wipe the lower the sheen as the oil goes deeper into the pad. I use Japan Drier to get a higher luster and faster dring times,about 1 teaspoon for 6 oz. Maple is more difficult to finish than the darker woods,staining with a water base aniline dye will realy bring out the grain better than Watco.
Thank you all for your responses. I learn so much from you whenever I look at this website. I must admit that finishing is my weak point. I can build almost anything and yet when it comes time for the finish, my projects seem to fall short. I am not really set up to spray and so I look for alternatives. I have used poly finishes before but have never attained that smooth finish that I desire. This was my first attempt at Danish oil and it is not as simple as the advertisement on the can says. They make it seem like you just wipe it on however you want and walah!.....a beautiful finish. That just hasn't happened for me. I sanded in my fourth coat last night with 400 grit paper and still have virtually no sheen or finish. I am down to two choices I guess. I can either wax at this point or apply an oil based varnish or poly. This will be for a desk top so I am a little hesitant to use wax for durability. What do you all think?
I think you would be pleased with a varnish or poly finish. Do you have any scrap you can experiment on?? When I finally got into the practice of setting aside scraps of wood for finishing practice, my attitude toward finishing changed for the better. Sounds like you have the stain and application method down. Do that to a scrap piece and try a couple different clear finishes, see what you like.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Dalewood,
I would suggest thinning some Polyurethane and use that as a final product on top of the Watco. I have been very happy with the results I get from it. The idea behind thinning the Polyurethane is it will let you "wipe" it on and not have to compete with brush strokes in the top coat and such. Also, the wipe on method lets you build many thin layers. On some pieces, I have even applied 8 coats of thinned Polyurethane.
As far as thinning...there are many people with many different approaches. I do the 50/50 of Poly and Mineral Spirits. Some people use Naptha and others use different chemicals. Basically, I like a thinner product. I feel I have more control wiping it on then brushing it on.
Cheers!darkmagneto
Wipe on 50/50 varnish (non-poly) and mineral spirits. A non-poly varnish gives a warmer deeper look than poly in my opinion. Wipe on at least 6-8 coats for the top for maximum durability and look. Gretchen
Dalewood, I too use Watco alot. One thing that I have not seen talked about is the wood prep before the Watco application. I have found with Watco that I need to sand to a higher grit of sandpaper to start with. For cherry, I sand to at least 320 and then use 320 on the first application to create a slurry, 400 on the second and 400 or 600 on the third. I never use steel wool when using Watco.
I'm a fan of Watco and BLO, but I would have opted for varnish for a desk. That said, I regularly build finish and sheen with Watco. I have a feeling you've not waited long enough between applications. Somebody else posted a link to a Watco finishing routine in this thread. I suggest you read it. The first step, if I recall, is to disregard the instructions on the can. I agree.
My concern with using Watco on a desk would be the chance you might have a little bleed-back of the finish after the piece is put to use. Doesn't happen a lot, but you don't want your papers to be put at risk. I always finish up Watco with a waxing and that's not what you want on a desk either.
Don't give up on long oil varnish and BLO finishes because of your recent experience. Try them again down the road. To dismiss any finish, especially oil finishes which have such a long history, is not smart. Keep your options open. Know when and how to implement an appropriate finishing routine. Like you mentioned in your post, a lot of people can build a project. It's usually the finish that separates a nice piece from a great piece. Never put yourself in a box.
As for a source for decent varnishes, please check out the Garrett Wade catalog or website. Star Finishing Supply in California also has what you need.
Edited 3/12/2004 2:59 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD
My concern with using Watco on a desk would be the chance you might have a little bleed-back of the finish after the piece is put to use. Doesn't happen a lot, but you don't want your papers to be put at risk. I always finish up Watco with a waxing and that's not what you want on a desk either.
Why Charles--that is absolutely appalling--appalling I say. You have almost agreed with me on this project of needing more protection for a desktop.
Gretchen
A desktop doesn't need much protection. The papers and things that sit on it do. An oil and wax finish is not appropriate for a desk in my opinion. With that said, I could salvage the original poster's situation should he want to proceed with the Watco. He would have to exhibit some patience, however.
You still don't appear to understand or believe that scratches and wear show worse in a film finish than on a non-film finish. The slight, unsightly scratches that dull a piece are in the finish. They're usually so slight that the wood itself never would have been marred and would have remained looking very good were it not for the film finish.
I think the best finish for a desktop is probably leather, assuming that it fits the style and assuming one might want to use the desk as a writing surface.
Your comment didn't say "on this project", you made the broad statement, as you almost always do, that Watco needs varnish on top (or something to that effect). But maybe we're making inroads, you usually dismiss oil finishes out-of-hand and across the board.
Ultimately, you're arguing with yourself because I do use varnishes. Where we differ is that I have not dismissed oil and wax as a viable and attractive way to finish pieces.
To repeat, I use varnish, shellac, lacquer, oil and wax, and wax only finishes. I haven't limited myself and refuse to do so.
I value your opinion about varnishes themselves. Heaven knows you are bound to know enough about them. I've always regretted your dismissal of Watco, BLO, and similar products. They are attractive. They are appropriate. They have a place.
Charles, I hardly know where to start. Leather as a top. Well, yes, maybe. My wonderful Victorian walnut desk does have a leather top and I love it. The one I refinished for my son's law school graduation also had leather which I preserved through the refinishing process. I hardly think that many woodworkers will do this--and it isn't even in the realm of the original post.
Your quote--"a desktop doesn't need much protection--Papers and such,etc"--never a coffee cup, tea glass? different desk top from mine!!
Your comment didn't say "on this project", you made the broad statement, as you almost always do, that Watco needs varnish on top (or something to that effect)
Perhaps unlike your scattergun tactics when I do reply to a thread I try to reply in the context of that thread and the original post's questions. If it is a top that will see some wear, I try to reply with that in mind and do recommend varnish. I have used Watco for its properties and have had good results.
I value your opinion about varnishes themselves
No you don't. Don't patronize me again. Period.Gretchen
Kindly refer me to a post about finishing where you've enthusiastically recommended anything other than a varnish and I'll gladly eat my hat.
I actually do value your opinion about varnishes. I'm not patronizing you. I think you know a lot about varnishes. If I had a problem with a varnish finish I'd be more than open to your suggestions. But what I've noted over the last few years is that you seem to lay in waiting for somebody to put up a post about oil finishes and then you pounce like a cat spewing their 'lack of protection', etc. Same old saw that the Jewitts and Dresdners propound constantly.
I've visited every significant display of eighteenth and nineteenth century furniture in the U.S. and many of them on several occassions. My career revolves around furniture. I've seen many, many pieces finished with oil. The pieces look as if they've been used, but they are stunning nevertheless. I haven't seen all this 'damage' that you seem to be constantly harping about.
Water rings, blushing, and all the problems you seem so afraid of are IN THE FINISH my dear and not in the wood.
I've lived with pieces for years finished with BLO, Watco, and Tung oil. I can tell you very honestly that water rings, tea, and coffee cups are not a problem. Our kitchen table is a large Ash trestle table that I built and has a tung oil finish (not a varnish but unadulterated tung oil with mineral spirts to thin it). I think I did an extraordinary job of finishing the piece. All the problems that you seem to sweat just don't happen. Wet glasses, spilled cocktails, spilled red wine, hot tea, coffee, etc. - not a problem. I repeat, not a problem. The finish doesn't blush, get water rings, heat rings, nuttin'. I'm serious. I've had the piece since my son was a baby. It's been thrown up on, had mashed green peas smeared all over it, formula spilled on it, you name it, not a problem. There's not a stain or discolored place on the entire table.
We have a BLO and wax finish coffee table that's had about the same level of abuse and again, no rings, blush, chipped finish, nothing. Both of these pieces seem to get better every year.
Edited 3/13/2004 12:09 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD
Edited 3/13/2004 1:33 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD
The "finish guy" at the nearest Woodcraft has very strong opinions on Watco, none of them good.
I think he said something about "Lies and damn lies" and felt the last applied to the Watco claims of a durable "hardened in the wood" finish. If I remember correctly, he claimed any penetration into the wood was accomplished by mineral spirits, which evaporate right back out, essentially leaving not much more than a thin coat of BLO.
He may also have been basing his opinion on following the instructions on the can, which not many seem to do.
BTW, this guy is a big proponent of straight tung oil, and has a lower opinion of polyurethane than of Watco. OTOH, he feels that Waterlox is a good product, almost as good as the manufacturer claims.
I have used the stuff, and had no complaints, but I am far from expert, and none of my stuff is more than a few years old. I would like to hear what you all have to say.
If you're going to finish a piece with varnish, Waterlox is probably as good as any.
People trying to do Watco and BLO end up quitting about 1/3rd the way through the process. Most woodworkers have attention deficit disorder when it comes to doing an oil finish correctly, although if this guy likes tung oil (and I certainly do) then he's been through the gauntlet it would seem - it takes a long time to do it right.
I tend to trust woodworkers and finishers who make a living at their craft, not somebody working in a retail establishment, but that's probably an unfair generalization.
FWIW, I usually do varnish when the client can't afford an oil finish or shellac. I can get a varnished piece out the door two weeks earlier than one finished with oil or one with a French polish. I upcharge for oil - it is time and labor intensive. I upcharge for lacquer - I have to send it out and even if I didn't it is equipment intensive (spray rig and booth) .
Edited 3/13/2004 1:39 pm ET by CHASSTANFORD
Charles:
Do you wet sand successive coats of tung oil? No one mentions wet sanding with tung oil as they do with Danish Oil.
Yes, I do.
Lots of good advice on the use of Watco, however no one mentioned the need to let it dry between coats. I flood the first on, then usually wait from 1 to 2 days. The put the second coat on with a fine plastic wool pad, or 300 wet dry sand paper.
I will add a 3rd coat on the top or wear surfaces only. If you want a higher gloss finish, you might go to the 4th coat. I will add wax to the wear surface and buff.
Watco makes a clear gym floor product, I find it in gallon size only. It seems to have a bit more body, if that is the correct term, than the "ordinary" Watco. I had a can from Watco's earlier days, ran out and purchased the current formula and I could not tell the difference.
I have also top coated Watco, only when dry, usually after 2 -3 days with water based lacquer, and water based poly with good success.
Curt
If you want to build up a finish - then absolutely it will take several coats. You comment that you do not see any finish, but that is exactly the point with an oil product like Watco. The oil seals the wood below the surface, and the finished product looks and feels like wood. Maybe you are used to the results of a varnish or other surface film, while leave a plastic surface over the wood. Beauty of Watco is that the finish appears natural, it seals the wood, and it is re-newable over time if you want to restore it later, unlike a poly film, which generally must be stripped. If you want more sheen than you are getting, consider a good past wax and buff out.
That's good advice.
What I like about Watco is how smooth you can get the wood by wet sanding with higher and higher grits. What I don't like is that the ulitamite finish is a little to satin for my taste. After reading all 54 of these posts, the idea I am getting is to wet sand with Watco until I get to a smoothness I like, and then apply a semi-gloss varnish. Or may be I should just wet sand with thinned varnish and forget the Watco altogether?
On a related note, I am wondering whether wet sanding obscures the figure of a curly grain in maple or cherry. It seems to me that it does, but I don't have that much experience, and would appreciate comments.
If you want a semi-gloss varnish finish, just start with a varnish in the first place. For the Watco coloring, apply a coat of boiled linseed oil and let it dry 4-5 days. Then apply a couple of coats of clear interior varnish--clear contains more resin solids. Let this cure 4=5 days and lightly sand with 320 paper. Then apply the final coat of semi-gloss.
Try it on some scrap and make sure it gives you what you want.
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