Replies

1. 
   uncommontree | Jul 14, 2002 04:26pm | #1

   CM.........

   Goodmorning. I have used some different types of water-based finishes and found 2 that I like, one is made by Benjamin Moore called Benmoore. Two- Minwax also makes a nice product. I have seen the Minwax sprayed on with very nice results (many coats). The only complaint I have as you may read from others is it has a tendency to raise the grain so sanding between coats is a must . A plus for this product is that it drys very fast so you can apply it in your shop environment with little or no visible dust contamination,so long as you are not running your belt sander or sweeping the floors. I am sure you will have projects that a nice oil finish is a must but the speed of a nice water-based finish is a breath of fresh air ( in more ways than one ). I did however make the mistake of using water-based finish on my enclosed front porch floor, applying 6 coats of high gloss. after 1 year and 6 High speed balls to the wall cats the floor is a mess. They say you can apply it to floors but I have yet to find a product that will stand up to various types of traffic. Hope this helps. Have a nice day Rick          ADESIGNS........

1. 
   carpmillwork | Jul 14, 2002 06:07pm | #2

   the product line that i have been exposed to uses a tung oil based sealer before the water-based finish this eliminates any raising of the grain and continual sanding

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jul 14, 2002 09:01pm | #3

   I haven't used the General Finishes but have heard more than once it's a good product. I use water-base more than anything else and have tried a number of brands. From my experience, I'd say if you found a product that looks good, offers the amount of protection you need, and have success in using - stick with it. There's no need to change if everything works. With that said, I use the line of coatings from TargetCoatings.com - they have a wide variety to choose from based on specific needs and I've had more success with them than any other water-base I've tried.

   The oil-base sealer followed by the water-base finish seems a good approach to bring out the color and depth of the wood and eliminate/minimize raised grain. The only possible problem I can see would be applying the water-base finish before the oil has cured. Is the sealer sold specfically for the water-base finish? How do you apply the sealer and water-base finish? What's the re-coat time?

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   gerry001 | Jul 15, 2002 01:38am | #4

   If it's only grain raising, just use water and sand when dry. Either a spray mist on oak, or two floods on popular (with others inbetween). Alternatively, instead of an oil-base sealer (sanding sealer? if so, don't use with wb), I'll use tung or linseed oil. Another choice is an oil-base stain. While the oil brings out depth in some woods, another approach is simply to use shellac (dewaxed). With a 1-2# cut, the first coat (thin) will simply soak in and dry quickly. Scuff sand to remove fiber nibs and apply a second coat to complete the seal. Then off to wb.

   In all those cases where the wood is sealed with oil, it's risky as to how soon a wb finish can be applied. Depending on the components and your weather, it could be 2 days to several weeks. In most cases, I'll apply a barrier coat of shellac, scuff sand, then apply the wb finish. Dewaxed shellac is compatible with most other finishes. You can get a pale version, and the very thin coat doesn't change your color. Finally, yes, the oil finish will continue to cure under the shellac, just taking longer.

   Depending on the results you want, all the above can be done in one day.

   A previous post mentioned using a wb finish for a floor. I haven't seen any that will hold up, unless they have a cross-linker available for it. Even there, I haven't heard many reports as yet.

   Gerry

2. 
   carpmillwork | Jul 15, 2002 05:00am | #5

   24 hour dring time on the oil.  when appling the oil you must keep the peice wet for five minutes and len wipe it dry and let it sit for 24 hours.  the reapply time on the finish is about 8 to 10 minutes.  incredible really

2. 
   Elcoholic | Jul 15, 2002 08:02pm | #6

   I've switched over from Nitro to Enduropoly from Compliant Spray Systems.  It's dust free in minutes and shoots just like lacquer.  I mix in about 4 tbls/gal of their Special Golden Oak stain so it doesn't look blue like non-fat milk.  They sell an overprint version, but I like controlling the tone myself.  I always raise the grain after sanding with 150 and again after 180.  It's just up and back with 220 on the RO.  I'll shoot a tack coat and then a normal just wet coat.  1 more coat 10 minutes later.  In 30 min. knock it down with extra fine Scotch Brite or 320 and shoot it again.  (Just try 3 coats with varnish in a couple of hours and you know what you'll get.  I've used oilbased stains, but you do have to wait 24 hours which makes the inevitable touch-ups a pain.  On my current run of 14 chairs I used Enduro's W/B stain for the first time and I love it.  If I see a little splooge, I just rub it out with a little stain on a rag and shoot it as soon as it flashes off.  Sweet! 

   A few caveats though - everything must be surgically clean, especially your gun.  Oil or silicone is death with this stuff.  No sterated abrasives or conventional tack rags.  These finishes are not water based, they're water borne and the chemestry involved is pretty complex.  For my stuff I prefer to use un-stained wood and pop the grain with thinned, boiled linseed oil.  This takes a week min. of drying and a barrier coat of super-blonde shellac.  Watch which wax you use, toulene kills this stuff.  I use good old Johnson's paste.

   John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   pockethole | Jul 16, 2002 06:27pm | #7

   I recently began spraying water borne products with an HVLP turbine.  As you said, it is imperative to keep the gun spotlessly clean.  Do you clean your gun between coats?  In your experience, how long can you wait between coats before cleanup is not a simple soap and water process?

1. 
   Elcoholic | Jul 16, 2002 09:11pm | #8

   I've yet to need to clean-up except at the end of the day as long as the previous cleaning was thorough and I use a fine strainer.  The tip will harden over the end of the needle, but now I wipe it off everytime I set it down and put a cap over it.  The cap is a plastic trailer ball cover that has a wet paper towel in it.  I've sprayed Enduropoly with my Binks 95 conventional which I use soap and water followed with a blast of lacquer thinner.  I just used a borrowed turbine and Apollo HVLP on my current job.  The owner said no soap or lacquer thinner through the gun, just water with complete disassembly and soak the fluid nozzle and rod tip in lacquer thinner.  No problems, especially since it has a teflon coated cup.  The Apollo is his 'B' gun and he raves about his new Accuspray.  After this (my first) experience with turbine HVLP I'm ready to convert.  Anybody want a sweet deal on a nice Binks 95 conventional gun and a really freaking noisy oilless compressor?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   DonStephan | Jul 18, 2002 11:38pm | #9

   Jeff Jewitt now uses water borne finishes extensively in his professional finishing business, and maintains a marvelous discussion page on his web site. Many of the water borne finishes he uses/sells can be applied equally well by hand or with sprayer. http://www.homesteadfinishing.com I have on several occasions rubbed on a VERY thin coat of boiled linseed oil, coated with dewaxed shellac a couple hours later, and then topped that with several coats of wb finish, all in the same day, and haven't encountered any finish failure. Don't like that schedule, but have been between rock and hard place several times and did so out of necessity. By all means, if you are equally foolish experiment on scrap first!

1. 
   gerry001 | Jul 19, 2002 04:14am | #10

   Don,

   I wouldn't expect any problem from that schedule, not in general. The one item that I feel would cause problems is one that people typically leave out of a finishing schedule because it's difficult to measure, and that's the coat thickness. While temperature, humidity and the finishing product all effect this, the thickness has a large impact.

   I usually apply the first coat of shellac shortly after the oil. I don't think there's anything to be gained by waiting a few hours, as the oil will take days to cure anyway. When dry I scuff sand to remove wood nibs and apply a second thin coat of shellac to complete sealing the surface. As these are both thin coats, it's ready for wb within the hour. I might then apply 3-4 thin coats at 1/2-1 hour intervals. If it's to be rubbed out, I'll follow with a thick coat. That, however, needs a day to dry before leveling, or several days before rubbing out.

   That way that wb bonds, I don't expect any finish failure, if the wood/oil is fully sealed. However, applying several thick coats in one day greatly prolongs the curing time. I've only done that when I can let it sit for maybe a week or more. The same thing applies to shellac, and I once made the mistake of too many thick coats, and two days later it was still soft underneath.

   Obviously, not all will agree, but I find this works well for me. For a whole bunch more on shellac and oil, check the rec.woodworking archives for posts from Paul Rad.

   Gerry

2. 
   pockethole | Jul 19, 2002 06:40pm | #11

   Thanks for your response.  The trailer ball cover over the cap is an excellent idea.  I'm off to get one.

3. 
   TheOldTimer | Jul 19, 2002 08:52pm | #12

   I have recently been interduced to Target Finishes and love the stuff especially there water based lacquor.  They have a excillent web site and the president of the company will reply to all your messages.  I ordered a quart of there lacquor two months ago and they sent me gloss although I specified satin finish.  I e-mailed them and they told me to keep the gloss and sent me a supply of satin at no cost.  I call that real service. 

   I have used the General water base stains and like them very much.  Lately I have been experimenting with Trans-Tint dys prior to staining and have been getting excillent results.  Have also been using de-waxed shellac as a seal coat prior to the application of my water based lacquor and have also got excillent results.  The de-waxed shellac prevents grain raising in soft materials like pine.  I mix my own de-waxed shellac and appoly a 1lb cut as a sealer.  Have been trying to get Zinsser's new Universal Sealer which is a pre-mixed dewaxed shellac but can not find it here in the Phoenix area.

   I switched to water base finishes due to allergies towards oil base finishes and have had no problems with the stuff.  I use a good mask when spraying the finishes and I also use conversion HVLP guns in the shop and turbin guns in the field.

   Good Luck:

   The old Timer 

1. 
   IanDG | Jul 22, 2002 08:22am | #13

   A couple of posters mentioned waterbase finish for floors -- there are several good ones on the market and while they don't wear quite as well as oil-modified urethanes they are so easy to apply that re-coating is no big deal. The problem with raising the grain is easily cured with a grain sealer but be careful with the curing. Typically, allow 10 days for a cure before normal use of the floor and they have one peculiarity -- it takes about 10 days for the final coat to bond with the preceeding coat, so don't stick masking tape or similar to the finished floor in this time or you'll pull up the top-coat with the tape (voice of bitter experience)