I’m just curious to get people’s thoughts on water based vs non. I’m in the process of finishing an armoir with Oxford Ultima water based spray lacquer. I have very limited experience with the solvent based spray lacquer so I can’t really make a comparison. However, the water based has been wonderful to use. It’s not nearly as invasive as others, you don’t need a mask, easy to apply and gives a very nice finish. It also has the nice attribute of when damaged, a light sanding and another coat is all that is needed. It blends perfectly with prior coats. It cleans up very easily as well. After a little practice i’ve gotten pretty good at producing a very nice finish. I really can’t see much reason to use the typical solvent based lacquer. Right now it would have to be my finish of choice. Thoughts?
Edited 12/28/2007 2:29 pm ET by dperfe
Edited 12/28/2007 3:28 pm ET by dperfe
Replies
Hi dperfe,
I'm not that familiar with the current water based lacquers. In the past ( 10-15 years ) I used some for a few projects. I found that nitrocellulose lacquer had much more clarity and depth over the water based equivalent.
Do a little test on a scrap piece and see what you like.
Paul
Be careful about the need for a respirator. If you read the material safety data sheet (MSDS) - Oxford Ultima Spray Lacquer MSDS - you'll see that you do need one when spraying or when brushing without a source of fresh air. Other than that point, I agree with you.
What, if anything, did you do to avoid issues with grain raise?
http://www.finishwiz.com
To both you guys.Regarding raising the grain. That was actually taken care of early on in the schedule. Since i was using a water based dye, I raised the grain and sanded prior to dying. I then sealed with zinser, glazed and finished. I'll do a comparison to the nitrocelous lacquer. It does appear to have more clarity and depth than the General finished urethane wipe on that I've used quite a bit in the past. The other thing with this stuff, it does seem to build fairly easily. Thanks for the input
FWW did an article on water based. It seems that it does not prevent water vapor from entering the wood as well as oil based. This would allow more expansion and contraction.
A common complaint about water based is it does not look nice on dark colored woods. Yet recently one of my club members took advice from a pro and put orange stain on walnut and then covered with water based. It really looked fantastic. Yes, it was orange. go figure.
You really should wear a mask....
I think its a fantastic tool to have available, its very worth learning, but I would not rely on that or any other finish as my only option. They all have their pros and cons, places and applications where they work well or dont.
I did a JLC article on wb lacquer a few years ago and most of my thoughts from then have not changed. Primarily, waterbornes have come a long way in a short time; those worried about durability and difficulty in applying need to get updated a little. Application is no harder to learn than any other finish. All you need is a little time and play time. Follow on coats do not burn in like nitro lac, so sanding debris between coats needs to be removed thoroughly. Prep is like anything else. It makes all the difference.
The "cold" look is still valid, but fairly easy to counteract. There are different methods for different woods. I've heard the orange on walnut, and I think thats a slick little trick. What I've done, and still do a good deal of the time, is tint the lacquer just a touch with some amber. It seems to go a long ways into convincing the eye that it is not a lifeless finish. I tweak that from project to project, trying to achieve a specific look rather than just follow a pattern of X amount of tint per gallon.
The stuff I've used almost always has very good build characteristics. Kem Aqua was the product I used for the article, but I've tried Crystallac, which I liked very well, and tested a few of the Fuhr line. The Fuhrs in particular I felt looked the most "solvent" without the help of any additives. While its not a lacquer, polycrylic has gotten used here too, and I always think of that as the finish you'd spray on the day you'd spray no other. Cold? Damp? Yup. 50 degrees and drizzle. Try it. Just glass. I dont know why.
I agree on the respirator. Its fairly tame relative to solvent based lacquers, but you still dont want to be continually inhaling the particulate matter. Just because it doesn't stink doesnt mean you should eat it. :-)
I still think a pressure pot is far and away the best way to apply, but I wont be surprised or offended to get disagreed with on that point. What really matters is finding the method that works for the guy putting it on. The pot and gun for me is like wearing a nice comfortable set of shoes. Its just right. I will say I have yet to find anyone who has tried airless and stuck with it. Awful hard to manage.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I'd have to agree with everything that RW wrote.
As a commercial shop who uses both, the downside of water-borne is the somewhat longer drying time and the fact that the cost is still higher per job.
We've done a number of projects this year calling for 100% gloss finish, and we could not get satisfactory results with water-borne.
Aside from that, I love the stuff...
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Thanks for the input people. Some good stuff to consider, exactly what i was looking for. Will start wearing the mask in the future. Any more suggestions or info would be welcomed.
Edited 12/29/2007 7:44 am ET by dperfe
I think some of the hybrid coatings are showing promise. No HAPS, water clean up, oil look, can be buffed to a high gloss. Target Coatings Oxford series is something you may want to try. http://www.targetcoatings.com/oxford-hybri-varnish.htmlBeat it to fit / Paint it to match
David
Good to see you around again, and hope all is well with your endeavors on the dark continent.
In case you haven't, I recommend you try crystallac water based finish. I use it almost exclusively, as it is idiot proof (required for me!!). They make both a satin and gloss, and I've used the gloss product for a high sheen with great results.
Take care,
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
I've got a bit of time on my hands so I'm on line occassionally. We've shipped off to Angola five 40' containers with house parts and everything we can think of that we'll need to assemble them on site. I'm not going there personally until the stuff has arrived and unloaded, so I've got a slow period in the project right now. In February I'll probably "disappear off the face of the Earth."
As for crystallac I haven't used it because I don't have a convenient source. We use WB finishes made by an Italian company called Sayerlac. They are quite well-known in Europe, and maybe in the US as well under a different name?
I could write a book on how I've gotten tools and materials that are "not available" over the years. But finishing supplies are one of those things that you must have a local source for. The supply needs to be reliable and consistent and fast. So I'm constrained to use the locally available products for all regular finishing work.
regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David
I guess I have absolutely no idea what it's like working outside the US. The world is our grocery store, and I rarely, if ever, feel the constraints of restriction regarding the availability of a product. I don't know if McFeeley's ships to Israel or not, that that is where I buy crystalac at.
I hope that Angola is all and more that you hope it to be. Don't fall too far off the grid though. I've been thinking about your project since you mentioned it last year, and hope for semi-regular updates! ;>)
Here's hoping the region stays stable enough for you to complete your mission,
Jeff
Jeff,Thanks for your thoughts...No, McFeely's won't ship outside the US. I've never been able to understand it, because some companies like Rockler and Lee Valley do it so effortlessly. I really like McFeely's, but they're very provincial in that way. They won't even take a Visa or Mastercard issued from an overseas bank. They will only take a US credit card and ship to a US address. So, hey, they can't have my business. (I think we bought about $5000 worth of wood screws in 2007)I won't disappear for too long. Planning a quick family visit to NY and PA at the end of January, before I have to go to Angola in February. I'll post any interesting stuff that comes up...best regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
As Im sure you know, water-base will not "age or yellow over time. hat you see is what you get.
So some will add a amber tint to the WB to give it the age/ O/B look. Some times this works and sometimes it doesn't. it depends on the stain (dark or light) and the wood. What i like to do is Use a O/B stain under the W/b finish. I never have had a problem doing this. You must wait for the stain to completely dry. Sometimes that can take days. But once you get the look it will stay that way.
I like the enduocoat. It was purchased recently by general finishes. But they dont make the amber over tint anymore . But if you order it through Homestead finishing.com they will tint it to give you the look you want.
As far as the differences, W/B is far more durable then a O/B. It has more solids in it.
But it doesn't have the burn in factor that a lacquer will have. Meaning if you mess the finish up just spray it again and it will correct the old finish.
But you can sand and respray the w/b.
anyway I hope this helps.
Sancho,
Regarding burn in. I'm nut sure if you were referring to the w/b vs solvent based lacquer or just w/b based vs lacquer in general. If the former, than actually the Oxford w/b lacquer is very good at burning through prior coats, which I have experienced.
dperfe,
You might like the USL even better with a good garnet or even dark garnet shellac as a seal coat prior to applying the USL. This gives it nice amber undertones that negate the cool look waterbornes can show. It is a good alternative to solvent based lacquers.
Solvent based lacquer is basically an explosive (nitro) dissolved in a poison (lacquer thinner) with a finely ground cellulose fiber mixed in hence the term nitro cellulose lacquer. I took this material out my finishing routine years ago when I read about the accumlative effects of exposure. Some materials only harm you if you are exposed for a long continous period of time, intermittent exposure to solvent based lacquers over a long period of time will eventually have an accumalative adverse effect on you physcially.
Ron
Thanks Ron
Ron,
(: .sraey rof ti gnisu neeb ev'I
luaP
From an old guy who started using the Hydrocoat water-based lacquer products back when Eric was still experimenting with his formulations.
It was a junky product with many many problems, disasters, and lots of free “latest product to solve that problem.” Know for sure that I was one of those who beta tested Hydrocoat for a year or two or three.
At the time for me however, it was either switch to water-based or purchase and install in rental shop space a $40,000+ automotive type spray booth to assuage the local fire and building inspectors.
Currently, the cross-linked products are so superior I cannot imagine going back to using nitrocellulose except in very narrow situations. Ditto for conversion varnishes and so on.
Currently for home projects I occasionally use these products with my HVLP turbine system, but more often go back to square one and the classic, molecular, and rag-applied tung oil/BLO/turpentine mix.
CHEERS!
I have used solvent based finishes for 24 years an am now switching to water based. The big difference I see between the two is the solvent gives you a nice warm look over a mellow plain look. As far as grain raise if you prep the wood first by washing it first with water then sanding it after with 320 grit sand paper I have not had one problem with water based finishes. Again the solvent gives a nicer look and dries much faster.
Thank You
Chris
Woah there! What do you mean you don't need to wear a mask when spraying water-based finishes? Just because the manufacturer's replaced the volatile solvents with water and various proprietary things, doesn't mean it still doesn't have any resins that may be harmful to your health. I ALWAYS wear a mask when spraying water-based finishes and urge you to do the same, too.
Marty in Ottawa
"I ALWAYS wear a mask when spraying water-based finishes and urge you to do the same, too."Sooooooooooooooo TRUE!Ditto for any air you are breathing that may be contaminated with other bad things . . . like sanding dust, etc. Similar thoughts about hearing and eye protections. I have done many stupid things in my shops but am fortunately still alive, and only have 35 and 40% hearing losses to complain about. Too soon old; too late smart!
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