Replies

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 20, 2004 12:24am | #1

   woodguy,

   Waterborn finishes all revolve around similar chemistry, but there's a pretty wide range of peformance from various manufacturers. The terms "lacquer" and "varnish" and "polyurethane" can, and should, reflect the characteristics of the product in terms of application and durability. For example, solvent based lacquer has the characteristics of being optically clear; hard (brittle) which makes it a good finish for rubbing to a high gloss; moderately resistant to damage from household chemicals, water, scratching and heat; has 100% burn-in between coats (all the coats "melt" together to form a continuos film); and is easy to repair. Polyurethane has excellent durability (resistant to damage from chemicals, water, and heat) but is not as optically clear, does not have 100% burn-in (each coat forms a separate layer), and isn't that easy to repair.

   Good waterborne finishes have properties that are closely related to their solvent based counterparts. I've tried a number of brands, some of them in great quantity (100s of gallons) and have chosen the products from Target Coatings as my favorite. They have a waterborne spray lacquer that has nearly identical properties to it's solvent based equivalent, including the optical clarity and 100% burn-in. The "Ultima Spray Lacquer" has recently been reformulated to make it easier to spray with HVLP as well as other improvements. For an "all around" finish, it's my first choice in a waterborne finish. They also have some waterborne finishes that are a lot more durable including varnish, polyurethane, and conversion varnish.

   These finishes are safer than solvent based finishes and you can use them in an area of the house that has decent ventilation. You do need to wear the proper respirator when you spray them (or any finish).

   Paul

1. 
   Michmesquite | Apr 20, 2004 03:06am | #5

   Paul

   Have you ever used the Target USL with opague colors such as an off-white for cabinets?__________________________________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.

    Epicurus (341-270 BCE)

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 20, 2004 04:09am | #6

   Micheal,

   Until recently, "USL" was "PSL - Premiuim Spray Lacquer." I have used the pigmented versions of PSL a number of times. I really prefer the pigmented lacquer over paint; it sprays the same as the clear with the same re-coat times, etc. Homestead Finishing (.com) carries it in a dozen colors or you can have the white tinted at a paint store to a custom color.

   Paul

1. 
   woodguy | Apr 20, 2004 03:31pm | #7

   Thank you all for your recomendations as well as your advice on the safety issues of water based finishes. As a somewhat novice woodworker I am very greatful for this forum and to all the people who take time to help when I have had a question. Thank you again. Woodguy

2. 
   Elcoholic | Apr 20, 2004 10:41pm | #9

   I second Endurolac and Enduropoly from Compliant.  I haven't tried Target but have nothing but good things about their products.  I was wondering if you have tried Enduro and still prefer Target and why?  I'm still using a Binks 95 conventional, but have shot Enduro on several occaisions with an Accuspray turbine and really liked it.  What are you using? BTW I thought your original explanation of waterborne was excellent.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 21, 2004 05:00am | #14

   Hi John,

   There's two waterborne finishes I haven't tried that get consistently good reviews from users; Enduro and Van Technologies. I haven't tried them only because I've really been pleased with the Target products and service and just haven't had a reason to look for a change.

   In HVLP, I use an Asturo ECO with a 1.5 needle/nozzle. It's a nice spray gun; uses very little air volume (around 5 CFM connected to a pot) and atomizes very well at low pressure (25 PSI & lower).

   Paul

2. 
   woodguy | Apr 20, 2004 03:40pm | #8

   Good morning Paul, Thanks for your response to my question on water based finishes. Do you have a web site for Target? I don't believe I have seen this name in any catalogs. Thanks, Woodguy

1. 
   jackplane | Apr 20, 2004 10:44pm | #10

   Woodwiz is right on the money about product safety. Just last week I used a waterbased polyurethane and noted it's warning; May Cause Reproductive Organ Damage. Something to think about.

     Just because they don't smell as bad as regular finishes does not mean they're safer.

1. 
   Elcoholic | Apr 21, 2004 01:48am | #11

   Even if you don't use your reproductive organ as a stir stick? :)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

2. 
   woodguy | Apr 21, 2004 02:18am | #12

   Jackplane, My main concern with spraying a solvent based product in the same room as my gas water heater/gas furnace is of explosion and fire. I will use a fan and wear a mask when using a water based product. Do you have a web site for Compliant Finishes? Thanks, Woodguy

1. 
   jackplane | Apr 21, 2004 04:43pm | #15

   No, I don't have a website about this.But google OSHA for the MSDS sheets on the product in question. Or refer to the manufacturer.

2. 
   Sancho | Apr 21, 2004 05:21pm | #16

   http://www.compliantspraysystems.com  they also sell accuspray guns. 

   Darkworksite4:

   El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera

2. 
   Paul_Snyder | Apr 21, 2004 04:30am | #13

   Woodguy,

   The blue words in the the text of my first post were links to Target Coatings - you can just click on the words.

   Their website is http://www.targetcoatings.com

   Paul

2. 
   DonaldCBrown | Apr 20, 2004 02:12am | #2

   wg-

   I'll second Paul's recommendation of Ultima Spray Lacquer from Target. I'm not a skilled finisher, but I am getting excellent results with an HVLP conversion gun on a set of kitchen cabinets I'm currently building.

   One reason I chose this product is that the customer wanted a pure white finish, and the Ultima lacquer is one of the few water-based furniture-type finishes that I know of that can be obtained in a variety of colors (as well as clear) and several sheens. You can also do custom tinting.

   Be warned that it is expensive--about $40/gallon--so I hope your HVLP setup is an efficient one in laying most of the finish on the cabinet rather than overspraying into the atmosphere as with high-pressure setups.

3. 
   Tao | Apr 20, 2004 02:16am | #3

   Most waterborne coatings have the same health rating (2) as lacquers do.  The glycol ethers are about as bad for you as lacquer solvents.  The dried spray residue is mostly acrylic and urethane resins, and it also burns easliy.

   In lots of years of industrial spray finishing I never had experience with a fire from actually spraying solvent finishes.  I have seen two fires from stain residue being mixed with lacquer residue in a trash container, one caused by welding sparks hitting "invisible" dried residue on a spray room floor, and one caused by a faulty fan bearing.

   Use PLENTY of ventilation, at least enough to change the air in your spray ares every minute or so.  Don't let the dried dust from overspray accumulate.

   It distresses me that people think that waterborne finishes are safe just because they don't burn if you drop a match in the can.  As far as I can tell, and as far as the msds sheets I have read indicate, they should be treated just the same as solvent lacquers.  That is, unless you just like liver, kidney, and nerve damage.

   Sorry I can't help with a brand recommendation, but whatever you use, be safe.  A lot of hazards are way overhyped, but waterborne finishes have an entirely unjustified reputation for safety.

   Michael R.

4. 
   Sancho | Apr 20, 2004 03:01am | #4

   I use enduro coat from compliant. Their the best Ive seen. http://www.compliantspraysystems.com I just tried their amber tinted finish to give the finish a feeling of a O/B finsh its the bomb...

    

   Darkworksite4:

   El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera