Replies

1. 
   ring | Dec 03, 2005 08:45pm | #1

   My shop converted to waterborne finishes about 2 years ago.  I couldn't go into all the pros and cons, but at a very quick glance:

   Advantages-

   1.  Very easy to clean spray equipment etc.

   2.  Much less toxicity floating around in the air.  Not recommended to breathe the stuff, but still a whole lot better than nitro solvents etc.

   3.  Very natural, non-plastic looking finish.

   4.  Finishes available today give excellent range of finish options, effects, tinting, etc.

   Disadvantages -

   1.  Somewhat longer drying times before materials can be handled

   2.  Still more expensive than traditional solvent-based finishes.

   DR 

1. 
   Sancho | Dec 04, 2005 03:24am | #2

   My experiance is different than yours.

   cleans up easily

   advantage,

   easy cleaning

   doesnt give off a strong oder

   dries quickly

   doesnt yellow

   harder than o/b

   disadvantages

   wont burn in like laquer

   wont yellow ( need to buy amber tinted to get the effect)

   may need a barrier coat to go over certain o/b stains or have to have a very long dry time for the o/b stain to put w/b over it

    

     

2. 
   user-61121 | Dec 04, 2005 06:38am | #3

   Hi,

   I  have some considerable experience in this area.  I own a Furniture Medic franchise, and I use wb product exlusively.  I really like most everything about it.  I use an hvlp system, and get a great (very efficient) transfer rate with very low overspray....not only less mess, but saves product.  I buy from General finishes out of New Berlin Wisconsin.  If you need any questions answered, the owner (Tom Moynihan) is usually available, and very happy to answer any questions.

   I think this industry will be skewed towards environmentally friendly, low voc, water based products more and more every year.  I like that I don't have to spend the money on explosion proof fans and lights, and volatile solvents.  The finish goes on very easy, doesn't ever yellow, and is pretty much idiot proof.  What I don't like is the wait between coats (about an hour), and the fact that wb finishes don't "burn in" between coats.  I would tell you that you should try it.....a gallon of polyacrylic is about 40 bucks.....water clean-up.....overall a cheap trial.  Hope that helps.  Michael "wood doc" Philipps

1. 
   YesIWood | Dec 04, 2005 04:34pm | #5

   Wood Doc,

     I have had a couple questions about General Finishes, and posted them on their web site.  Had a reply back the same day.  Excellent service.  Plus they are in Wisconsin (check my profile).  What I would like to know is what are the names of the products you spray?  I am about to venture into spraying (water based) finishes.  I have had great results with the seal-a cell wipe on poly.

   ThanksJoe

   Is it really saw dust or wood dust?

1. 
   user-61121 | Dec 05, 2005 04:56am | #6

   I usually spray their polyacrylic finish.  I start out spraying gloss because it is really clear and makes the grain and figuring "pop".  I then follow up with a coat of satin, or I will just use abralon pads to acieve a satin finish if desired. 

   I have also had great luck with their heavy duty urethane product, and their hybrid finishes (waterbourne, but sharing some of the chemical similarities of solvent based like burning in between coats).

   If you want to try some of their other products, I would highly recomend their wb gel stains.  If you have any questions, please feel free to email me directly.  Michael "wood doc" Philipps

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 04, 2005 04:28pm | #4

   After using water-base finishes long enough it's hard to point out any negative points. There are some differences that you need to adjust to, but after a while they're automatic and don't seem like a problem at all.

   I often like to seal the bare wood with either an oil-base finish or shellac. Most water-base finishes don't give the wood a 'warm' color tone that solvent base finishes produce and the coat of oil-base or shellac takes care of the shortfall. The same is true of popping the figure in different woods. Pre-sealing the wood also eliminates the raised grain issue.

   Typically, I'll use Waterlox Sealer/Finish on bare cherry, oak, alder, etc. and apply it like a wiping stain. Once it dries, I'll smooth it with a very light sanding, remove the dust, and then topcoat with the water-base. I like the Waterlox in place of linseed oil because it looks just as good, but dries a LOT faster. You could use just about any varnish in place of the Waterlox... I've used fast dry varnish many times with good results. On light colored woods like maple that you don't want to darken, the water-base finish alone works well.

   Some water-base finishes do have a much 'warmer' look than others and there's at least one that has 100% burn-in between coats. I like the finishes from Target Coatings the best of all I've tried, and they have one that has the properties of lacquer (100% burn-in, exceptional clarity, rubs out well, etc.) called Ultima Spray Lacquer. They also have some oil-modified water-base finishes that have a solvent-like warm color tone (not quite as good as a solvent bsed finish) and are very durable (e.g., EmTech 8000 PreCatalyzed Conversion). You can check them out at http://www.targetcoatings.com

   There are some water-base finishes available that you need to add a catalyst to them before use. And they cure faster than pre-catalyzed finishes, but the catalysts for these finishes have such a high health hazard that you might as well use a solvent based catalyzed finish.

   I haven't tried the Diamong Vogel water-base finish, but I don't think there's any good reason not to give it a try. When trying a new brand, the first thing I do is apply the product to bare wood and a darkly stained piece of wood with large pores. On the bare wood I'm looking for excessive grain raise. On the darkly stained piece I look for a bluish tint in the finish or lack of clarity and it's ability to fill the pores. Some water-base finishes have a bluish color once dried - I find that a reason to exclude that brand - it looks horrible. Some do not produce a clear film - it looks like plastic - no good. Sometimes the finish will not fill the large pores on wood, instead it "bridges" the pores, leaving a white spot. Again, this fails the test. If the finish passes these first two tests, then it get some trial use.

   The next step in the testing process is to start using the finish on pieces to see how it looks on different woods and finishes, how it handles, and how it holds up. In this test, I will do 1 or 2 sample pieces a week using the "new" finish and the rest of the pieces using the "old" finish. I can compare how well the finish goes on, how it sands between coats, how "finicky" it is with application and sanding, how it looks, how it performs in different weather, and how easily it gets marked during handling. This testing is to find the more difficult "nuances" that can be aggravating and eliminate the finishes that have some annoying "quirk." It's taken me over a year to exclude some brands on this basis - they seemed to be great most of the time, but had problems that eventually made me look for something better.

   EDIT - I forgot to add that if you use an oil-base stain on the wood, you don't need to pre-seal the wood before using the water-base finish because the stain does the job. You do need to let the stain dry completey before you use the WB finish though to make sure there's no adhesion problems. If you use a dye on the wood, pre-sealing with an oil-base finish or shellac is still a good idea since the dye doesn't have a binder like linseed oil that seals the wood.

   Paul
   http://www.finishwiz.com

   
   

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   Edited 12/4/2005 8:36 am ET by Paul_Snyder

1. 
   wchips | Dec 06, 2005 05:52pm | #7

       Hi.

       Thank you and all the other people for all the info on waterborne finishes. I have never used it so i know nothing about it. I plan on trying it in the near future,

    How easy is it to touch up in the event of a scratch or ding?   What is the minimum temp. you can apply waterborne finishes? I assume it can be thinned with water if needed for spraying.

              Have a nice day Lee

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 08, 2005 04:38am | #8

   Check out this link Lee - http://www.targetcoatings.com/home/manual.html - It's written by a woodworker to describe his advice for using water-base finishes. It's very long, and I've only gotten part way through, but it seems informative.I almost never do spot repairs. Whenever I have a repair to do, I usually make the repair and re-spray the entire surface. It's the quickest and easiest solution for me.I think most waterborne finishes recommend a minimum temperature of 65 F for application.Thinning varies by product/brand. I routinely thin the WB lacquer from Target 15% because I like to keep the coats thin and reduce the viscosity. The same stuff can be thinned up to 50% without a problem. A lot of WB finishes limit thinning to 10% max to avoid problems with forming a film. 10% thinning does make a significant difference in the viscosity.Paul Snyder
   http://www.finishwiz.com

1. 
   wchips | Dec 08, 2005 06:11pm | #9

       Hi Paul.

     Thank you for the info. 

   Have a nice day Lee

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 09, 2005 12:39am | #10

   Glad to help Lee.Paul
   http://www.finishwiz.com