Does anyone have experiance using Waterlox? How does it compare to the Maloof poly/oil finish? All comments welcome.
Dale
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I use it regularly. It is a wiping varnish. I have only used the satin gloss, the "Original," and it has a pretty high solids content (27%?)for a wiping varnish. I have read in FWW that the gloss has a 43% solid content, so I will try it also, usi9ng the satin for the finish coat only. I tend to use dewaxed shellac to seal, sand, and then add a second coat, and then 2 or 3 coats of waterlox on top of the shellac. By sealing first, you get better speed, and less absorbtion, so that it builds much faster. It gives a nice hand.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Timberwerks,
I would agree with everything Alan said. I have not used a sealer and put on 6 coats for a nice finish...perhaps overkill. An issue is its cost and the fact that it doesn't last very long in the can once its been opened. You need to be careful of the fumes too.
Dale,
It's an oil/varnish preparation that is as good, no better than any other such brew. It is vastly overpriced, but has garnered a kind of cult following that praises it to the sky.
Rich
"It's an oil/varnish preparation that is as good, no better than any other such brew." It IS better than many other such brews, in that it has a higher solids content. That's partly why it gets a higher price - you're actually paying for the finish, rather than the solvent... Also, it's been claimed that it really does use Tung oil in its formula, unlike many other so-called "tung oil" finishes that have no real Tung oil in them.I have to agree that it's expensive, though. I'm going to start mixing up my own and see how that goes. Maybe blend a little Formby's with some Benjamin-Moore alkyd paint base...
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Albion,
No, it's no better than others, because you can reach the same end point by using more coats of another brand, even add a little tung oil if you want. Several coats of brand X easily puts down as much solids as fewer coats of Waterlox, and at a far lower total cost.
Rich
Rich, I'm not disputing the cost disadvantage. If two finishes give me the same result, but one requires three coats and the other only two, then I'd say the two-coat finish was better (all else being equal). If your time isn't valuable, then you use a different equation. For me the expense of Waterlox is (just barely) worth it for the time savings."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
It's an oil/varnish preparation..." ... It IS better than many other such brews
Maybe you can help clear up some of my confusion. I thought it was varnish, not an oil/varnish blend. It might be applied sometimes in the manner of an oil/varnish, but I still thought it was a varnish. I used it on an oak floor years ago and it has performed like a varnish - I brushed 3 coats of it on. I can't imagine a varnish/oil blend drying hard enough to act like a floor varnish.
Thanks, Ed
Ed, there are four different Waterlox formulations. One is the sealer/finish, which is indeed an oil/varnish. There are also the High Gloss Finish (Gym Finish - 38% solids), Satin Finish, and Original Marine Finish (49% solids). I suspect your floor finish might be that High Gloss Gym Finish. I don't know what the proportion of oil to varnish is for those - maybe Howie can tell us.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Yes, it was the High Gloss Gym Finish.
Based on Howie's comments this time I will used the Original Sealer/Finish for my initial coat or two. Better penetration.
>>Also, it's been claimed that it really does use Tung oil in its formula, unlike many other so-called "tung oil" finishes that have no real Tung oil in them.Yes, tung oil is used as the oil when they make their varnish. They make their varnish from phrenolic resin and tung oil. However, once the two are heated and become varnish, it is no longer right to refer to it as a tung oil. Just like bread which is yeast and flour. Once baked it comes bread and you can no longer refer to it as either yeast or flour.Almost all marine exterior varnishes are made with phenolic resin and tung oil. The phrenolic resin is very dark but quite flexible. The tung oil is somewhat more water resistant than linseed oil. Together, a phrenolic resin/tung oil varnish is hard but somewhat flexible with good, natural UV resistance.The Sealer/Finish is a varnish product made with a lot of oil (long oil varnish). It is soft and flexible but tends to soak somewhat deeper into the wood. Use alone, it it not as durable as when overcoated with a true short oil varnish.
Howie.........
Edited 7/26/2005 9:19 pm ET by Howie
Howie, are you saying that the Sealer/Finish is rightly called a wiping varnish, not an oil-varnish?Another question: The way this stuff cures, and especially the way it will gel in the can, reminds me of the polymerized tung oil varnishes I've used in the past. The Waterlox can says it has "specially treated" tung oil - is this a partial polymerization? That would account for much of the cost differential - polymerized tung oil is pricey stuff. It would also mean that I can't get similar performance from a homemade tung oil/varnish blend.Final question, (hoping you are a Pink Panther fan): Is a "phrenolic" resin derived from the "bimps" on your head? :-D"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Let my clear up a couple of points.>> Maybe blend a little Formby's with some Benjamin-Moore alkyd paint base...Formby's is a thinned wiping varnish (says so right on the label). It contains no real tung oil. It's a fairly standard linseed oil/alkyd resin varnish that has been thinned.Next, Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish is a varnish. But, it's made with a high percentage of oil to resin so that it can be used as a wipe-on product or a brushed on product. The increased oil will also penetrate the wood somewhat more deeply which makes it a good initial sealer and initial coat. I wouldn't characterize it as an "oil/varnish" but instead as an "oily varnish". In reality, there is probably not a lot of difference.Howie.........
Thanks Howie. The Formby's reference was kind of a joke really, although I might still try that just to see how it works. The Ben Moore paint base is also a soya alkyd resin varnish. Are phenolic resins superior to soya-based resins?"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
>> Are phenolic resins superior to soya-based resins?
For exterior varnishes, yes. However they are very yellow. They also make for a more flexible varnish.
I think you are a little confused. Soya is not a resin. Soybean oil (soya) and safflower oil are semi-drying oils that are used in some varnishes. Linseed oil and tung oil are drying oils used in varnishes. The resins used are alkyd, phenolic and urethane.
The finest marine varnishes are made with phenolic resin and tung oil. Inexpensive varnishes are made with polyurethane and linseed oil. The least yellowing varnishes are made with alkyd resin and one of the semi-drying oils.Howie.........
Howie,
Yes, I was confused! (Didn't have the cans in front of me - relying on memory doesn't work as well as it did 25 years ago...) Thanks for straightening things out. Now at least we have some idea why Waterlox is more expensive than other wiping varnishes. Also why it is so dark."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I used it over Walnut and was very pleased with it. I was able to keep a wood-like feel, more protection than pure oil, ... you know the pitch for the oil/varnish mixes. Very easy to apply, care for those wet rags though.
I have used Waterlox extensively; on floors and furniture. The finish is great and the wear resistance is fantastic. My only complaint would be that if you buy a can be prepared to use it all because the shelf life is short. You pay a lot fir a qt. and if you only use 1/2 you can bet the stuff will be solid in the can within aboutr a month or so. Other than that...great stuff.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I have used Waterlox extensively; on floors and furniture. The finish is great and the wear resistance is fantastic.
I've been trying to locate a thread from a year or two ago in Breaktime and haven't found it. It containt some comments on using it as a floor finish. I think it said to apply it with rags, in multiple coats, and maybe removing the excess that puddles between coats.
Does any of this sound like your method? In the past I applied it to oak floors like any varnish -- multiple coats with a brush.
This time I'll be using it on 150 year old poplar floors. So the thick tops coats might not be a great idea on the softer wood.
Any ideas are appreciated, Thanks, Ed
My floors are 225 year old white pine. I applied the stuff with a sheeps skin applicator. I believe I put on 5 coats. Someone recommened sanding between coats.but I didnt. The first coat dried in about 10 min. That old pine was some dry stuff. It made them look beautiful though and they have been there about 3 years now and they still look great.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
That's a great looking place you have there.
Dale
Thanks Dale. Its a grand old house. I just love looking at it, inside and out. 226 years old and still in fantastic shapeWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Hi, I had written a reply to you, but I see I did not get the message posted to the thread. So here is a 2nd try - Your photos show the visual value of bringing out the grain in old wood floors. That room wouldn't be at all the same quality without the floor. Encourages me to aim for the same. Nice workmanship. I'll go with the sealer/finish for a first coat, then build up later with the gym finish. I'll have to degloss it after it cures.
You are absolutely right. Using a hardwood flooring like maple or oak, while it would have brightened the room, would not look as nearly dramatic and as authentic. Authentic is something we strived for in that room when we redid it. What we took out was a 1970's look kitchen with a red tile floor. The white pine flloring came out of our attic. The pine floor looks like it has been there for 200 years and it has........just not in that room.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
The white pine flloring came out of our attic ... been there for 200 years ...
Now I'm really impressed. You removed 200 year old floorboards and reinstalled them elsewhere. There's a lot of waviness in old boards.
These flloor boards, measuring between 15-19" wide and 10' long, were all hand planed when they were put down as an attic floor; the jack plane marks are still visable. This attic must have been used as a work space to justify putting down a sub floor and a hand plabed top floor. While these attic boards arent the same quality as the flooring on the second floor of the house ( there isnt a knot in any of the floors and these floors are original to the house) there are still very few knots in them. After the project was completed I had 1 1/2 boards left over so I made a table for my dining room. It just seems to go with a house 226 years old. The table has about 5 coats of Waterlox on it too. The table is completely made of wood that is over 200 years old and fastened together with hand forged nails I salvaged from here as well. You'll note that the floors in the dining room are not original by looking at the knots in them.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I just recently purchased the original formula for a project and have been very pleased. I did not seal the project because I wanted the tung oil to absord as much as possible. Secondly, everyone is right about use it or lose it. I came across the suggestion of removing the air from the can by way of glass marbles. Hopefully that will prevent it from drying out so quick. Lastly, it has been providing excellent water protection, as my project occassionally gets submersed.
I have no exp. w/ the poly you mention but I would certainly choose Waterlox over any poly.
BTW, I think Wood magazine, issue 163, had an article about a guy that mixed his own tung oil mixture. Once I use up my Waterlox, I plan on mixing my own.
Z
Thanks for your input everyone. I'm a little concerned about the odor since winter will be here soon and I'll be confined indoors. I'll go ahead and give it a try.
Dale
How to keep Waterlox from hardening in the can:
A found that purging the Waterlox can with a gas to exclude the oxygen will make the stuff last indefinitely. I've had good luck using the cans of gas they sell to dust computer and photo equipment. The gas is one of the Freon substitutes and costs around $5.00 a can at Walmart. I've experimented, and the duster gas works as well as Bloxygen at 1/10th the cost, and the duster nozzle is much easier to use than the one on Bloxygen cans.
The trick with using the gas is to start using it the moment you open the can, once the finish in the can starts to react with air, even for a few days,, it will continue to deteriorate even if you start using the gas later. Along the same line, pour out the amount of finish you need into a cup, and discard any leftovers when you are done. If you pour the unused finish back into the can, it will also start the hardening process.
Be very careful with any rags that have Waterlox on them. Wadded up, the rags will get warm in just minutes and can catch fire within half an hour. I hang them out to dry for several days and then throw them away in a metal trash can away from the building.
John W.
Nice idea. I am going to experiment with the $5 can of gas.
And then turn the can over.Gretchen
And then turn the can over.
I've thought this over. I still don't understand.
Why?
It keeps air away from the finish.Gretchen
Gretchen,
Turning the can over doesn't keep the air away from the finish, the same amount of air will be in the can whether it is right side up or upside down.
John W.
I tried the computer dusting stuff, on your recommendation, and it does work just fine.
However, I found that it would sort of implode the can. The more air space in the can, the worse it would suck in. Any idea what's going on? Did this happen to you, too?
I eventually found some 16 oz flexible plastic jars, and that works, too.
Thanks
If the cans are drawing in over a few days, the most likely explanation is that you didn't eliminate all of the oxygen with the gas. As the remaining oxygen reacts with the finish it is removed from the atmosphere in the can and the total volume of gas diminishes, creating a partial vacuum that draws in the can sides.
John W.
The cans draw in over a few minutes. I put it away, then hear a lot of popping and crunching.
I shoot the "not air" into the can with the can as close to closed as possible. If anything, I over use the stuff, maybe a four second squirt for 1 1/2" empty space in the top of the can.
I used a little less than 1/2 of a gallon can of Waterlox over a period of two weeks or so, and the remaining finish is fine. The computer duster stuff does work, but I did get worried that a mostly empty can might crush enough to leak.
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