A friend has asked me to do his kitchen cabinets. He wants a simple mission style kitchen. He is going to buy all the materials, and the countertop. And he’s buying some chipboard boxes premade, all i need to do is the doors, drawers, and finish work.
I’m not a pro, i can definately do it, but i don’t necessarily consider myself a cabinet maker.
He is obviously trying to save money rather then spending $8000 on custom cabinets.
do i charge per hour? or a flat fee?
thanks
Replies
Unless your friend is a REALLY good friend, don't do it !
C.
he goes to our church, does that make it better..... or worse? ;o)
I said don't do it unless he is a very good friend because of the 8 K you mentioned, now ... we don't know how big the kitchen is but for an average one, without the machinery used by the people in the industry, if you get it done for less than 8 K you will probably make a couple of bucks per hour.C.
indeed. $8k ain't much for an average sized kitchen run of cabinets. His friend is possibly taking advantage of him, possibly without even knowing it. A co worker of mine was quoted $25k for cabinets on a new home he was building. I looked over his plans and said MAYBE $15k if he was lucky.
sorry, I just read the pre bought box part.
I guess I would just echo everyone else...be careful. Be very careful.
Edited 10/23/2006 8:22 pm ET by Woodk
There's nothing wrong with working for friends, neighbors. etc..... as long as you're confident that the job will turn out perfectly, and not strain the relationship. Forget the hourly rate, and work out a price with your friend up front so there's no surprises. Since you mentioned that you're not a pro, you'll need to consider the cost of all the tooling, router bits, shaper bits, etc.....in addition to the cost of material. Add enough extra for boo boo's, as you'll probably make a few, if you're experience is short with large cabinet jobs.
Jeff
You might consider buying the doors--it's hard to build doors cheaper than what you can buy them for from places like Keystone or Conestoga. You can buy drawers that way, too. If you aren't a cabinet maker, starting by trying to build doors and drawers is risky. Try buying them and doing the install, and build your own face frames, etc.
well, i'm not a professional cabinet maker i guess. But i've been a serious hobbiest for 6 years, i've got all the basic tools, except a jointer, and i've built three large armiores, including one for a "client",along with lots of other stuff.
i've also installed kitchen cabinets that i didn't build in a customer's house.
I guess the armiores are kind of cabinets... does that make me a cabinet maker?
sorry, i took your comment to mean you hadn't had much experience woodworking. Still, you might consider buying the doors/drawers--very cost effective.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
i'm not offended at all! just giving you more info so you can better advise me.
can i get the doors in any wood?
they are wanting hickory. i'm concerned that i won't be able to match the solid wood drawer fronts with premade doors from some where else.
Mission style and Hickory?Don't make anything unless you are willing to work for $3 per hour. Buy the doors, drawer fronts and drawer boxes.Call Kendor Wood 800-231-3798. You can get a Hickory 18 x 20 flat panel door for $21.30. A solid Hickory drawer front for $10.35. Your material alone will cost that much.Call Walzcraft 800-237-1326 (or Conestoga 800-964-3667) if you want to order above doors pre-finished and pre-drilled for hinges. Costs more, but far less than you'd expect. Probibly $40 per average door. You need to tell Walzcraft you're a pro, or else they won't sell to you.There are drawer box makers all over the internet. The last kitchen I did had 7 drawers and none cost me more than $30. That was pre-drilled for Blum Tandem slides.
I did a kitchen -- once -- on a T&M basis. Never again. The client drove me nuts with questions and nitpicking -- i.e. " I don't see why it took XX hours for ....." etc. However, the bigger problem is kitchen cabinets are a commodity item, and because of the economies of scale, it is virtually impossible for a small operation to match price with the large manufacturers. Custom cabinetry makes sense only if space or design considerations are such that the client can't get what they want from the manufactured lines. But it is also true that some folks just like the notion of "handmade" cabs by an artisan -- in which case they should be willing to pay a premium. It's like this: you can buy a bowl for your cereal from Walmart for a couple of dollars. However, you could also go to a potter, work with him/her on the design, and then have the pleasure of eating that cereal out of one-of-a-kind bowl. But you should expect it will cost more than the Walmart bowl.If for your own good reasons you still want to proceed with the job, I too would urge you to get some prices for the drawers, doors, and drawer fronts from one of the many outfits set up these days to produce them. Then you will know how much this time-consuming (for you) portion of the job will cost, and give you a good idea of how much would be left in the budget for you to build the boxes and install the above.And don't forget to factor in the cost of finishing and cabinet installation. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"Custom cabinetry makes sense only if space or design considerations are such that the client can't get what they want from the manufactured lines."Is there a particular manufactured cabinet line you would recommend? Are you familiar with Dakota Kitchen? They are in Sioux Falls which is *sort of* in your neck of the woods. How about Merilat? They have a plant right in my town.I have talked to one local guy whose work I've seen. His prices for customs don't seem all that different from the stock products I've looked at.We may have him do our island, which we actually need to do soon to get our current remodeling up to code. I figure have the island be the centerpiece with a lot of nice features on the living room side of our kitchen/great room.But I'd love to find a manufactured line that impresses me and is reasonable in cost. We could just use those for the perimeter of the kitchen.
I have done a fair number of installations for people who bought their cabs from Home Depot. I thought their top-of the-line stuff was as good as anything else I've seen. If you want a benchmark for price and quality, HD is a good place to start.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Home Depot is coming to our area but not here yet. We have Lowes and Menards.I see that Home Depot carries Thomasville, Kraftmaid, American Woodmark, Premier Cabinetry, and Mills Pride (which I think is mostly RTA).Is there one of those you like more than others?
I have never bought any cabinets from them myself; but from talking to these various clients, HD seems to have three general levels of price/quality -- low, medium, and high end. I am not a big fan of Menards cabinets. We don't have Lowes in my area yet, but from what I hear, they are set up to compete most directly with HD. I would visit somebody in their kitchen design department and ge the lowdown of the price lines they carry.I know others may disagree, but I don't think there is probably much difference among kitchen cabinet manufacturers. This is an intensely competitive business, and I think it is generally true that you get what you pay for, regardless of the manufacturer. I assume you know how you go about looking at cabs to distinguish between the crap and the good stuff..........Where are you located?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Rapid City, South Dakota.I do feel comfortable with assessing quality of construction. I don't feel very knowledgable about hardware, however.
I lived in Aberdeen SD and was vacationing in the Black Hills during the Rapid City flood back in the 70's. Passed through Deadwood the day before it washed away.
Memories.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
If Home Depot cabinets are as good as any you've seen, you need to get out more.
Hal
I could certainly benefit by getting out more, but then, who among us couldn't?But I stand by my statement. The kitchen I installed was from the high end of the HD line. They were hard maple, the grain on the rails/stiles/doors was nicely matched, Blum Tandem slides, and the finish was perfect. They were the equal of Woodmode, and any of the custom shops around here that I have done installations for.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
it's hard to build doors cheaper than what you can buy them for from places like Keystone or Conestoga
I am not familiar with those companies, but when I replaced the doors on the kitchen cabinets of my last house, everywhere I went the price was a minimum of $75 for a simple shaker style door made of oak. - That was just the door, no hinges or hardware.
I made my own out of white oak with 1/4" oak ply for the panel, and the cost per door, including blum euro hinges (with the face frame adaptor) and silicone bumpers came out to about $28 - $30 each, finished. The cost differance let me buy the planer I wanted and I still saved money on top of that.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Hi Rick,
I think to be accurate when comparing the cost of what you made for yourself to the job in question there are many other expenses to consider .
Overhead , insurance , wages , maybe even profit . I would think you did not charge your self any labor . Would you make the same for someone else for only your cost ?
You are correct that it may cost less to make the doors yourself but the real question is could you or would you want to compete with a factory ?
dusty
In a business format, NO.
For a friend, maybe with his help, I would figure in possible overhead additions (electicity, blade/bit/equipment wear and tear) and some profit - charge maybe $50 ( off the top of my head ) per door as a one off favor.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
You were either going to the wrong places or getting screwed.I can get White Oak flat panel doors made for $6.80 per sq/ft plus $3.10 (design charge) per door. (Example: 22" x 28" door = $32.19) Kendor Wood, Inc. 800-231-3798. Call if you don't believe me. You can get the same door from Walzcraft or Conestoga for a few dollars more pre-finished and hinge bored.
If he is able to get the job done for 8K from a cabinet shop, then you should charge him at least 10K--or then do it for free cause he's a friend.
People need to understand that cabinets are expensive. I had a client that thought he could build his own kitchen cabinets, and he absolutely drove me nuts while I was doing the job for him. He constantly told me that I should be doing it this way or that way, and wanted to know every detail of how I was going to cut the plywood and what type of glue and screws and joints I was going to use. This all from a man who had never so much as operated a saw.
Peolple think that it is easy to do, and although it is not technically difficult--like doing fine veneer work, or hand-cutting dovetails, or ball-and-claw feet--it is not as easy as it looks to get everything to fit right and look straight and corerect. Floors and waslls are never straight, square or plumb--but the cabinets should be.
Sorry about the ranting--The point that I was trying to make is that you should never take a job to save the client some $, because they will still expect the end product to be as good or better than the more expensive one, and in the end, there will be a great strain on the friendship from one side or the other.
Peter
www.jpswoodworking.com
boy, is there anyone that thinks this is a good idea? ;o)
i still feel this is a good deal. let's recap, the guy is buying the boxes premade, he just needs me to do the doors, drawers, and some covering the boxes. and they want something really simple. like frame and panels, with bead board inside.
they are buying all the materials, and i'm just doing it in my spare time. It's a very rustic set up, it's a log cabin that they are building as they have the money, they are five years into it, with probably another 5 years to go.
also, i'd like to do it so i can get some word of mouth going.
"boy, is there anyone that thinks this is a good idea? ;o)" Somewhere, probably."they want something really simple. like frame and panels, with bead board inside.
....
also, i'd like to do it so i can get some word of mouth going."How are you going to get any word of mouth on a really simple job? What you need to get word of mouth going is a showcase not a budget job. Just for jollies have you figured out what the materials cost and hours it would take? I mean it's pretty obvious to me that you will take a bath and lose the friend unless lighting strike but its always nice to know by how much.
Edited 9/24/2006 10:35 pm ET by testtest
After close to 30 years or so in business I have learned a few hard lessons .
When working for a friend either do it for full price or do it for free . Anything in-between can be problematic .
For me personally when I cut my price , I have found my motivation level can diminish as well as the results . My friends will be expecting a top notch job from me and for a cut rate price that's hard to have my heart in it . That's just me .
I've done donation work for free materials and all . I gave it my all and never had a complaint , schools , Boy Scouts , Church , the Grange and a few service groups .
good luck dusty
"When working for a friend either do it for full price or do it for free . Anything in-between can be problematic ".This is the best piece of adice so far, but, you know, Dusty, he is going to do it anyway !C.
C ,
Thanks C, this is from my own experience working for friends . To be quite honest true friendship has a much greater value then a job does to me .
Not only building something for a friends home , but working for a friend as a sub when he is the general can have it's pitfalls .
There will be other jobs , but replacing friends is not as easy . I have a particular friend who happens to be a very fine builder and finish man . He is as particular about what he does as I am . We met on a large high end job both there hired by the home owner as subs . We gained a mutual respect for each other as craftsmen and quickly became friends . When he was the general and hired me as a sub , our friendship was in jeopardy , he wanted me to jump when he said jump and expected me to meet his deadlines even though I had never agreed to them .
The next time he called me to do a job for him I kindly told him how important our friendship was to me and that I would rather not work directly for him and keep our friendship strong . I think at first he was upset with me but after some time he understood . The next best thing was to refer him to a qualified and honest cabinetmaker .
We are still close friends .
dusty
Based on the above, let me opine that a problem might be that, as a developing craftsman, you WANT to have a successful kitchen under your belt.
Gee, how many ways can folks tell you "DON'T DO IT!"
Let me list a couple of more ways.
1) You friend has a partner in marriage. Think about what that means in terms of really knowing what is really wanted in that kitchen.
2) I don't care what your original estimates are - kitchens are EXPENSIVE as all heck, OR they look like early rental house. $8,000 is early rental house kitchen territory, I don't care who is doing it. Really. You will eat the difference, or your friend will eat the difference, and it sounds like they may not have the resources to eat the difference. YOU will be the cause of all that financial pain.
3) By the way - you don't have a planer AND a well set up jointer? You aren't going to build cabinet doors that sit flat against their respective cabinets with out both in any reasonable timeframe. And you will have lots of cabinet doors to make. A slight skew in a cabinet door at eye level really takes all the pleasure out of looking at that cabinet.
More reasons?
4.a.) Ask Mrs friend how well she is going to cope using a camping kitchen for 3 (or more) months. Any kids in their equation? If they are, you are going to be the subject of the story they tell their grandchildren. You won't be there to hear it. Your ears will burn.
4.b.) (continued) What do I mean?....Well, it takes a professional about a month to build a kitchen, using all his experience, all his resources, his shop set up just right to do the task, exactly the right tools... and no unfortunate unforseens.
4.c.) (still) You, on the other hand, facing your first ever kitchen, don't stand a chance in heck of finishing that job in less than three months - more, 'cause you are going to be doing this when you aren't at your day job.
Reread 4.a.)
So, you want a successful kitchen under your belt? Do your own first.
Other than that - heck - go for it.
How's that for an intemperate response?
Mike D - who once said "when I get the bathroom cabinets done, I'm going to remodel the kitchen and build all the cabinets myself".
Just re-read the whole string - missed the vacation cabinet in the woods, no timetable part.
So, forget the camping kitchen part.
Still........
Mike D
Hummm. In the cold light of day, my response to you was ranting, pure and simple.
Sorry to be so negative - folks on this site certainly treat me better than that.
Mike D
"boy, is there anyone that thinks this is a good idea? ;o)"
Sure, I do. Your friend is buying all material, doesn't want anything fancy and you can do it in your spare time. I don't really see the problem. By the time you are done you will have gained valuable experience and will have improved your skills with drawers and frame and panel doors and your friend will have what he wants.
I would set a single price per door and a single price per drawer.
As far as word of mouth goes, all that is really important is that the client is happy. To make a client happy give him what he wants. If he wants rustic, give him rustic. If he wants top-notch, high-end, give him that.
Bob
I read your initial post too quickly, and I missed the part about your friend buying pre-made boxes.As far as how much to charge for the doors, drawers, and door fronts, I would still urge you to get a price from one or two of the many outfits that could make this stuff. That would give you a basis on which to base your own charges. I still would not touch the job on a T&M basis -- only a flat fee. Are the boxes going to be available to you (in your shop) to do the fitting and installation? If you have to do this on site, it could be a major headache, unless you're really set up to do it that way. This guy is clearly looking to save a dollar, and doing such work for an acquaintence often turns into a bad experience. Hence all the warnings you have received in this thread. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
YO MON!
I think that this is a fantastic oportunity for YOU. If, after all the comments I've read until now, YOU haven't heard the prevailing message, then the "experience" you're looking for is all that's left. Go for it man!
Post your experiences afterwards for all of us who can't "see" the real thing.
My best to you and your lasting friendship with this "client".
Kemo
Kemo,
Well said! If he wants to do it, just do it, he doesn't need our permission. I, for one, learned my lesson long ago about taking on projects like this. I never understood why people ask for advice when they don't really want it.Woody
If you want to do the work, go for it, and be sure you enjoy working on the project.
Business wise, it could be another project to add to your portfolio.
I personally like to set a fix price when I work for friends, and I also write out a invoice stating the terms of our agreement including what my friend will supply. And remember it's just business and you don't want any miss understanding to ruin a friendship. Collect a 50% deposit, balance is due on completion, and will be completed in 6 to 8 weeks from date of deposit. With a invoice there will no miss understanding, and having a dead line always helps me have a goal for completion.
I built my own kitchen cabinets, and I wouldn't go near your job. If it was only $8K from a custom shop I can't imagine that there is much room to save money and still pay you more than $1.95 an hour... Building frame & panel doors in a home shop is slow! Same with drawers. Oh yea, then you have to finish them...
Check out Scheer's or some of the other break-down ready-to-assemble companies. They come prefinished and go together quickly. There was a Fine Homebuilding article a few years about them - for this application sounds like the way to go. Decent quality at a price you can't touch unless you are doing it for yourself (in my case to justify all the tools in the shop - LOL).
"all i need to do is the doors, drawers, and finish work. "
The doors, drawers, and finish work are the heart of the matter. A first semester high school shop class (if they still existed) could get the boxes built in short order.
Not doubting your technical competence at all. These things test one's logistical and organizational skills more than technical cabinetmaking. You can throw enough money at it (shaper or router sets for the doors, etc.) to make it fairly easy.
Just don't sell yourself short in an overall sense.
Hey Mikkimel,
Wow, it's interesting that no one thinks you will make more than "a couple of bucks" or as little as "1.95 per hour."
It really isn't that bleak. I build cabinets and you can make money at it.
Sure you can buy door and drawer fronts that match, and the drawer boxes themselves, but it doesn't sound like that is really what you want to do. It is fun doing woodworking. It isn't as much fun trying to make parts fit and then explaining to your friend why the grain in a pair of doors doesn't match at all.
What you should do is figure out how much material you need. Be generous with yourself, not your friend. You will want some extra.
Then think about how long each step will take you. Write it down. You should have in your list items such as: "
1. Picking up material - 1/2 day.
2. Laying out parts and rough cutting materials - 1/2 day.
3. Flat jointing everything. Planing everything to thickness. Edge jointing all parts - 1 day
And your list will continue until you include installation of door & drawer pulls.
Then add a couple of days because it will take you longer than you think.
Decide how much you need to make a day to be happy and face your wife and children, and pay your taxes and insurance, etc.
Then add up the material plus the labor, go to your friend and tell him how much it will cost him. He may decide to have you do it even if you are more expensive than the $8,000.00. If so, do an incredible job and you are now a cabinetmaker. If he doesn't want you to do it, that's okay too. Just don't pick apart the cabinets he ends up with. It's not nice.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
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