What do you really know about that tool?
I just replied to a question about a cheap craftsman saw with a burned out motor (most likely). I tried to only give info that I knew from experience.
We get lots of opinions about tools on this forum. Most of us have never tried more than one or two of each type of tool. If we wear out more than one tablesaw in our lifetimes, we must be pros. Someone asked a question about the hitachi CMS – I have one but it’s 12 years old and my opinion is of limited value when considering a new saw so I didn’t post.
I would like to ask everyone that expresses an opinion on some tool or other to attribute the opinion to someone or something. Did you own this tool? Have you used it? Have you even seen one? Did you read a review? Was it on amazon or in a woodworking magazine?
Knowing the basis of opinions would really help understand the import of the opinions. If your buddy had a really bad experience with a Spinfast saw, tell us this fact when you trash the Spinfast saw.
Recently, there was a really nasty exchange here about this very issue. As usual when homo saps are involved, both sides had some points. But there is some validity to knowing the basis for statements about the quality of tools, their reliability, the customer service, etc. Thanks
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Any conversation to which you are a party will have people giving their opinions. I do agree with you it'd be nice if people qualified their opinions, but I think you'll find you can get a good gauge of everyone by just watching what they post and how it's received. You can get pretty good at "reading between the lines" too -- that will let you judge the weight you can give to each poster's thoughts.
I think you make a really good point that could turn into a good discussion, but in any public forum, this info should be treated as reader beware. (Heck, I even think most mag reviews should be treated as reader beware!) I think it's also important to note that our opinions and experiences are usually based on a sampling of one of the units in question, and that sampling may or may not be representative of the whole. Our opinions can also have a bias that's been influenced by a number of factors, and it can influence our comments and recommendations. Plus, there are alot of opinions based on brand name regardless of the merits or shortcomings of the tool. Unfortunately a strong bias can really blind us and hinder our learning. Although I understand we're getting at some core human issues here that are unavoidable....back to the reader beware comment!
If I know nothing about a tool, I don't post. If I post, I try to differentiate between my opinion and the facts I'm aware of. How are feel about it isn't usually relative. Sometimes a really great tool doesn't fit the posters needs. My sources of info are as varied as the tools in question....I own, use, touch, see, read, listen, etc. Our experience with the tools in question is all relative. I've "liked" most of the tools I've owned at one time or another, so I tend to take people's excitement lightly...it's gives me more info and increases their credibility (to me) if they state specifics of what they like and dislike. They're tools not girlfriends, and there are pros and cons to most designs and circumstances.
I often try to state where my info comes from, especially if it's merely second hand info. Sometimes my knowledge of a tool is extrapolated from knowledge of another tool. IE: I used to own a GI 50-185 contractor saw, but I've never used a 50-175 which is the RT version of the same thing...I assume them to be roughly comparable. I have also never used a Grizzly 0576 contractor saw, but I know the body of the saw comes from the same factory as the GI...I know that the Griz has been very well received, and I know of the differences like the fence, motor, handwheels, warranty, dealers, etc., and will state the differences....and sometimes will offer my opinion of the pros and cons if I'm aware of any. It's up to the poster to make the decision. Another example - I've never used the $179 Sears special TS, but I've read alot of complaints from former owners, I've played with it in stores, I know it's light, aluminum, and that it has a universal motor...I suspect it's capable of cutting wood, but the opinion I've formed from that info is that it's not a great machine, and I usually recommend buying used or saving more money. A third example - I've owned quite a few decent saw blades and have a very high opinion of the Forrest WWII...it's earned respect, not hype, not marketing, not something I read, not extrapolated from a similar design.
Writing skills and tool knowledge are separate skills. IMO the most problematic posts are from passionate people with very limited experience or tool knowledge who've done a little research and possess good writing skills, have made a purchase that they're delighted with and write what can appear to be an authoritative post exclaiming the virtues of this or that tool being far superior to another based primarily on emotion, when in fact it may not be so or it's strictly a matter of opinion. The damage comes when the emotional appeal of the post entices an unsuspecting newbie who makes the same purchase only to discover 1 or 2 years down the road that they've made a limiting choice. (did I mention reader beware?) IE: I recently read an extremely pro review from a new saw owner with 3 to 4 weeks experience in wwing, claiming that his saw "...beats all other saws costing 2 to 3 times more". I have yet to discover a tool that is in such an elite class. At some point, I'm sure I've been guilty of the same type of emotional hype, and perhaps many of us have ...like I said, I've liked most of my tools at some time or another. Objectivity comes from experience and time for me...others may be born with it ;-).
...too much coffee...too many words!
Good post...we could probably discuss this for weeks.
Edited 12/10/2005 9:01 am ET by scotty
Actually, my post had nothing to do with your's. Your's was funny. I posted when I found myself ready to post a reply to the Hitachi mitre saw criticizing the lousy and imprecise mitre stops. Then, I remembered reading an ad where they emphasized their improved mitre stops. I don't know if they are any better today than they are on my older saw - I'd hope so. My point is that I was going to post not really knowing about the CURRENT mitre stops.
By the way, when my old 1 HP craftsman motor burned out, I didn't need a fire extinguisher. I just had to open the garage doors and windows for a few hours till the smoke and the stink cleared out!
Edited 12/10/2005 9:00 pm ET by Telemike
The way tools and machinery change from year to year, it's difficult to make meaningful recommendations. There are some things about some companies that seem to indicate their overall approach to engineering and manufacturing. Often these are the things that are not immediately visible, armatures, bearings, switches, etc. It's not until the tools have been used for a while that these flaws show up. A hobbyist may never put the tool through it's paces and professionals may differ on what they think is accurate or convenient.
I've been in the business before there were any power miter boxes. I'm about to purchase my seventh miter saw. Currently my Bosch 3915 has worn out the bearings, again. I liked the saw when it was new but there have been a number of issues with it that have been aggravating. At the end of the drive shaft there is a roller bearing. They used the smallest, cheapest roller bearing that is made. One size up and I could have, at least, up graded to a sealed unit. It's very doubtful that I will buy another Bosch anything. This may be unfair to Bosch. They may have made significant changes, they may not even be owned by the same people and they may have changed their engineering and place of manufacture. I'm biased based on my experience.
While looking for a better saw, I've read many comments about some of the different brands and models. User reviews on Amazon, for example, will run from one star to five stars on a model. All you can do is read everything you can find and inspect the unit personally. I'll ask to see the schematic but that won't tell me who manufactured the switch or what the armature windings look like. I've never seen a review that talked about the guts of the machine. I do find reading a variety of reviews worthwhile, regardless of who wrote them. I'm reminded of the Hummer commercial where the short guy says, "why don't you build it smaller?". You don't have to be an expert to offer a good opinion.
I'll second that. Like the rest of the web, Knots gets a lot of really questionable stuff (e.g. did you "know" that amniotic fluid is an amplifier for shop noise?). We've all put out posts we shouldn't have at some time.
I suggest a few rules of thumb:
If you find yourself writing a post that starts like "I don't really know about this, but I think..." hit Cancel.
If you find yourself writing a post like "that tool is a piece of junk" with nothing to back it up, hit Cancel.
If you're writing a tool review that starts "I just opened the box tonight and I think..." hit Cancel. This goes double for reviews on Amazon.
You get the idea.
Pete
Edited 12/11/2005 5:27 pm ET by PeteBradley
I suggest a few rules of thumb:
If you find yourself writing a post that starts like "I don't really know about this, but I think..." hit Cancel.
Well, I have to disagree. Sometimes there are questions that the experts don't get to, and a less authoritative post might be all a person gets. Also, I've noticed that sometimes a thread goes without response until someone makes one answer... which is overruled by all the experts. Heh.
I can tell you that it's discouraging to post a question and have everyone simply ignore it, which I've had happen only a couple times. I would have welcomed any response. In fact, I've asked a lot of questions here, and I've found considerable value in responses from the great experts, and also from my fellow novices.
I do think it's courteous to say in your post when you know you're going out on a limb. But even without it, readers will make their own evaluation of posters' reliability. For example, if I see a post ending in "Slainte" I pretty much take it as advice I can act on. Many others here seem to me worth considerable respect. On the other hand, there are a few experts who undoubtedly know much, but are so inclined to represent their own preferences as the only possible conclusion (eg registered chisels useless for mortices) that I take all their recommendations more as entertainment than as guidance.
I'm quite certain other readers here are equally capable of discerning the wheat from the chaff.
If you're writing a tool review that starts "I just opened the box tonight and I think..." hit Cancel
Well, I've done this once. I just got the Woodpecker QuickLift, and nobody has long experience with 'em. I figured people might be curious what is in the box, first impressions etc. As long as the review is clear in saying it's a "first night" review, why is that a bad post?
It's heartening to find that someone finds value in the seemingly vast number of posts prefaced by the fact that the poster really doesn't know anything but will speculate anyway. I find them a nuisance, but to each his own.I do have a problem with people doing first-night tool reviews. The reviewer may never have seriously used that type of tool before, or the tool might break the next day. However their 5 stars have been duly tallied by Amazon and contribute to the overall rating that everyone else will see. It can take a long time for even totally worthless reviews to be marginalized by future raters.Pete
their 5 stars have been duly tallied by Amazon
I see your point here, as the statistical summary assigns the same weight to that first-night "rating" as it does to a considered opinion from an educated, experienced user. Now I understand why you specified "especially on Amazon."
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