What do you use to flatten Waterstones?
mycoleptodiscus
| Posted in General Discussion on
What do you use to flatten your waterstones?
What do you see as +’s and -‘s of your method?
Replies
220 grit sandpaper attached to 6" x 24" piece of plate glass. As far as pros and cons, this works quickly for me so havn't tried anything else.
I use a medium Diamond stone.
A piece of regulat 100 grit sand paper laid on top of my table saw
I use a 150 grit waterstone that's made just for that purpose... canna match it for speed and accuracy..
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
There was a guy on HGTV tonight and he has two 150 grit stones. Soaks them in water before using them and places them face to face and rubs them together for a few seconds before sharpening or honing anything. I think he was from Lie-Nielsen.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hello again Myc. I use Norton stones. I have 2 1000's, 1 4000, and 1 8000. I rub the 1000's together to flatten them both and then rub my 4000 or 8000 on it to flatten. I have found no contamination whatsoever in the 4000 or 8000. After you are done sharpening a chisel try looking in the reflection of the flat side while viewing the reflection of a overhead flourescent light. Adjust the chisel so the light tube is parallel to the length of the blade, and if the tubes reflection is distorted then the back is not flat. You only have to do this once, so keep at it. Good luck Peter
I only use one 1000 grit water stone. Since I only need a couple of passes on it, it will be flat as new for many years to come. If it ever needs flattening, I'll probably use one of my diamond stones.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Myc,
I just sent you this in your other thread:
David Charlesworth recommends "float glass" as a reference surface for flattening, which he says is much flatter than plate glass. I've talked to a number of glass dealers who don't know the difference. I use a piece of 18"x18" Corian, which is very flat. The point: you're wetstone-sharpening surface must also be perfectly flat.
Find your flat reference surface, take a sheet of 320 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper (buy the contractor's pack - trust me) and either stick it on with spray adhesive (that's what I do, and I use acetone to take the residue off later), or with a water mister as Charlesworth suggests, which I haven't had luck keeping it in place with.
Btw, Charlesworth advises against rubbing two wetstones together as a flattening method, since if one wetstone is hollowed, so too will the other be.
Cheers,
Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Hi Mitch. I own David Charlesworths furniture making techniques volume 1 and 2. David uses a piece of 1/2" float glass that he meticulously checks with a straight edge and feeler gauges to ensure that it is flat. Glass is always perfectly smooth but it is only as flat as what it is sitting on. David will actually shim his glass with cigarette paper [around 0.001"] to make sure it is flat. All of this is necessary with 1/2" float glass that I am sure that most of us do not own. Glass is flexible, you can not rely on it being flat, you need to check it. I agree that rubbing two stones together can create a out of flat condition. It is very easy to guarantee that they do not however. I do not even bother to check mine anymore because I know they are flat. I know this because I look at the reflection of a fluorescent light tube in the back of a chisel and the image is not distorted. If the stones are not flat then the back of a chisel is not flat either. There are many ways to sharpen and I do not think that any method is the only way to sharpen. I use the methods taught to me by Rob Cosman who is the person that Lie-Nielsen chooses to have teach others on how to sharpen and use hand planes. Rob uses Davids ruler trick but has modified it somewhat to make it faster. But as I said to each their own. Peter
Peter,
First, I certainly meant no offense when I mentioned that rubbing two stones together wouldn't guarantee flatness. As I was writing that long post, I couldn't even remember who mentioned that technique in the thread. So believe me, it wasn't at all a personal thing. And, your knowledge of sharpening and hand tools is clearly excellent, and I'm certain superior to mine.
I made that comment because Charlesworth cautioned against rubbing two stones together in the article I mentioned:
So, that's where my comment came from. Also, I recently saw Rob Cosman demonstrate his sharpening technique on DIY's Tools & Techniques, and he referred to it as David Charlesworth's method, which he had modified slightly. I'm sure, though, that Rob wouldn't choose to rub two stones together to flatten them if he thought it was a flawed method. One thing Rob did say about that technique is that the two stones should be of the same grit.
But I think we, and most people who've reponded to Myc on this thread, would agree with the main point: Whatever stones are used to sharpen with must be perfectly flat. And as you say, there are multiple techniques for getting there.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Hi Mitch. I didn't think that you sounded offensive and I was not responding that way [I hope]. For 2 stones to flatten each other they need to be of the same grit, but for 1 stone to flatten another of a different grit- the coarser one needs to be flat initially, hence the rubbing of 2 1000 grit stones together. I am trying to take some pictures of the fluorescent light tube reflection technique that I was taught to check the tool for flatness but the camera flash is causing problems. I will post hopefully in a couple of minutes. Peter
Edited 2/7/2005 1:43 pm ET by Peter36
I got this from somewhere, but I don't know where. I bought a piece of 12"X12" tile from Home Despot that is polished on top with sandpaper stuck to it. I used this for a little while for sharpening, but didn't like it. I guess it would work fine for flattening waterstones. The tiles cost less than $10 for granite.
Myc,
"I bought a piece of 12"X12" tile from Home Despot that is polished on top with sandpaper stuck to it."
I think the grit on that kind of a tile would wear away very quickly and thus not be of much use after a hundred strokes or so. The reason so many people like waterstones for sharpening is that they deteriorate and reveal new abrasive with each stroke (which is why they have to be flattened constantly). But a tile which has abrasive already stuck to it, if I understand your description correctly, has a finite amount of abrasive, and when that's used up, so is it's utility as a tool for flattening waterstones. I think you'd be better off finding a flat reference surface and affixing sandpaper to it, then replacing the sandpaper when it gets loaded.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
sorry, that's what I meant. I use #70 3M adhesive to bond wet/dry paper to the tile :)
Hi again. This picture is not very good [turns out it is very hard to take a picture of a reflection of light...who would have known?] Anyways, this is a picture of the reflection of the fluorescent tubes in my shop in the back side of my chisel. This is how I know that my tools are flat and therefore my stones must be.
Now you're just showing off ;P
Impressive though...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I've tried several ways but the best is the simplest: wet/dry sandpaper stuck to glass or sandpaper.
Draw a squigly line on the stone with a pencil. When the pencil lines all disappear the stone is flat.
Myco -
I use the DMT Diamond whetstone in 220x. Has worked great for all of my water stones. Just rinse it off and go to the next stone so as not to mix abrasives. It will rust so it must be dried after use.
I read somewhere in this forum about someone complaining about rust on their DMT whetstone. Metal oxidation in a natural phenomenon which we cannot prevent. The best we can do is to slow it down a bit. Wiping with a dry clothe or the diligent use of a hair dryer will aid in this regard.
Regards,
Phillip
If you were taught sharpening by Rob Cosman, then you know that he rubs one stone on another. How much flatter can it: A) be, and B) become, knowing that the stones or whatever is used as a reference is only as flat as the reference surface for them? However, one stone isn't used for anything but flattening the other stones so the best they can do is average the surfaces, over time. Even float glass is only as flat as what it was on when it cooled. He also flattens his stones before honing, every time, taking only a few seconds till they're done since he doesn't spend much time honing the steel and this practice wears the stones very little. I referred to HGTV and a guy from L-N in my last post. Rob was the 'guy', I had forgotten his first name. Do you hone the back of your tools at an angle the way Rob does? Do you do it the same way he does?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yes I do it the same way that Rob does it. I have taken 3 classes with Rob, 1 of them being a week long class in how to use hand tools. Sharpening is extensively covered, along with all of the do's and don'ts and the flaws of each method. 1 stone is not always left to only flatten, you just always grab your 2 1000 grit stones and flatten them together. If they are flat then they are both flat and it wouldn't matter which one you use. There is a theoretical possibility that you could have a hollow in one and therefore create a hump to correspond on the other but anyone who uses this method knows that it does not happen. If you rub 2 like grits together then they will achieve perfect flatness. I sharpen with the back bevel [the ruler trick] and it only takes about 1 or 2 minutes to make a brand new blade sharp to 8000 grit. I flatten before each tool hits the stone. As you know it takes about 5 seconds to flatten a stone and not much more to sharpen. Its about all you could ask for in a sharpening technique. Peter
I use 120 followed by 220 grit sandpaper on my TS top (it's machined flat...) to flatten my 1000 & 2000 Waterstones. For my 8000 I just use either the WS or 220+ sandpaper on the TS top--but I find the 8000 rarely needs flattening, compared to the 2K stone.
I use a sheet of tempered glass approx 12 x 18 " and Lee Valley micro abrasives. Check out their on-line catalogue.
I have used wet/dry on glass, but I recently switched to siliconwe carbide powder on glass. I find that it cuts more aggressively, and is easier to work with--but that's just me.
peter
jpswoodworking.com
jptenberg,
Several have said they use wet and dry paper...but in reality that is not the appropirate sandpaper..it would fill too quickly. I use 3M sheets on the TS, brushing off the dust frequently...180 grit
I wrap mine in newspaper and run over them with my car. Works wonders.
Ahh.....You are back
Had I left?
Ah Charles, I know you've never been away, and I would still use a low tech method to flatten waterstones if I still used them. People hate to hear this method propounded because it isn't very purist, but it is effective and fast. Rubbing them on the side of a flat breeze (cinder) block always used to work a treat and would take maybe a whole two minutes out of my working day if I was flattening a badly dished example.
Sadly, when my old Japanese stone broke a few years ago I moved over to a couple of ceramic stones and no longer have any interest in the stone flattening process, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
It certainly beats owning another sharpening system to flatten them (sp-on-glass, diamond stones, granite plates, etc.). That's always been my gripe with these things. That and the water bucket.
Generally Charles, I think there's usually too much palaver made of the sharpening process, so it could be we are in some form of agreement.
Get the stone out, sharpen the blade, get back to work. Not much to it really. I can live with a stone with a bit of dish in it-- puts a nice curve on a blade. Hell, I'll even cut joints and pare and trim wood with chisels that are a wee bit skew-whiff on the end, and--- shock horror-- don't have mirror bright backs you can see your reflection in to shave with.
I could always dig out the infamous "A Lesson in Sharpening" yarn yet again for everyone's enjoyment, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Hey, I'm with Metod - even if I wind up not using it, it sounds like your previous post was helpful, and I'm always craving to learn more.
That said, having finally found a metod - I mean method :-) that works (Basically Charlesworth's system including the Ruler trick), I'm likely to stick with it. I have to say, you're the first guy I've heard approve of sharpening on a stone that wan't very flat...
Looking forward to the re-post,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
You should post it every time somebody creates a thread about sharpening. Every bit of it is the Gospel truth.
Here you go then guys. Slainte.
A Lesson in Sharpening.<!----><!---->
A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.
Naturally, the subject is of great interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make valid points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.
1. Those that can’t.
2. Those that can.
In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.
In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant, along with a few slips for gouges and the like.
Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Git that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or thirty minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.
"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"
I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about seventy five per cent of its original volume!)
"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.
"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.
"Now, can yuh see it? Can yuh see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped off a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.
I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."
He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie with me son. If yuh can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron bare-ersed to <!----><!----><!---->London<!----><!----> and back and no cut ma’sel’. Git o’er here an’ I’ll show yuh something." <!---->
You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally stropped backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was popped back in the plane, followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.
"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yuh may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yuh. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yuh started."
For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.
"Aye, no too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time will tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yuh cannae even shairpen yer f—in’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."
I haven't.RJFurniture
Tales like that are the best!In this thread, I think I have seen just about every possible way of sharpening and honing plane steels and chisels. Not too much mention of using a flat bottomed belt sander, though. I went to the Woodworking Show a couple of years ago and, after checking the list of seminars, went to the one for cabinetmaking. This was one of the Marc Adams seminars. I have seen his name in one forum or another here and he seems to have the respect of quite a few people. He showed us how he sharpens his chisels and planes. He takes out his Bosch belt sander(with a really flat bottom) and puts on the finest grit belt, lays it on its back and turns it on. Then he lays the chisel on the belt for about a second, looks at it and if he needs to give it another touch, he does. If not, he doesn't. Takes off the wire edge with fine sandpaper and gets back to work. When I went home, I tried this method. It works. I sharpened my cheapo chisels, which were pretty dinged up at the time and it cut pine like butter. Oak was pretty good, too. I'll have to resharpen them and cut some mortices in hard maple soon. His point was, get them sharp and get back to work. He said something like, "you can admire your sharpening skills if you want, but that's not why you have tools like these".Just another way to do this.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Since nobody mentioned it. ..... try using the mesh type sanding sheets sold for sanding sheetrock. Wet it, put it on a piece of glass. ... rub the stone. It will flatten your stone scary fast. Regular paper clogs way too fast.
Yes, I had read that somewhere. Thanks!
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