Do you use a tape measure, folding Zig Zag rule, Bench rule , When doing projects, what do you perfer???
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Replies
All of the above.
Any measuring device you use will have inherent inacuracies. All are good for layout and general measuring. Story poles also work well. Your more acurate mesurements will be transfered from work to work within the project with a scribe or sharp pencil. After that use sight, touch or whatever works for you.The half freckle, skoshe and R.C.H. are also usefull.
Cheers,Glendo.
I use a steel ruler unless the project is over 36". I will use the same ruler or tape measure throughout the whole project so eventhough the measuerment may or may not be exactly say 4 5/8", Its the same throughout the entire project.
Steve
Tape measure (10'/3.5M) for rough layout and measuring lengths. I use both English and Metric Units depending on which ever is easiest.
Starett Steel rule (32ths/64ths and mm/0.5mm) for table saw set up (ripping) unless > 10" when I use either a tape or 18/24" square.
For any dimension < 4" is likely measured with a dial caliper in thousandths.
I verify the accuracy of the steel rule with the dial caliper and verify the tape with the steel rule.
To me, it is a matter of acceptable tolerances. Thickness variation needs to be more controlled than width. Both are more critical than variation in lengths.
For inside measurements, I use a folding rule with an extension.
The measuring tool used the most -- dial caliper!
Tape measure, and steel rule. One 300 mm long, the other a metre. How anyone works in imperial measures is beyond me................
Wood Hoon
You can get used to anything. Noah built the ark in cubits.
Noah built the ark in cubits.
And look how he ended up.
Noah built the ark in cubits.
And look how he ended up.
Hahahaha .... but I'll bet more people will remember Noah than you, me or Doc! (hahaha)Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Don: Noah built the ark in cubits.
And look how he ended up.
Yeah, ALIVE!
Edited 9/30/2002 4:20:15 PM ET by Lee
The funny thing about imperial measures is that almost all lumber and plywood manufactured comes designed around it. This means a true metric user has to convert everything all the time
4x8 plywood, 2x4-12 spruce, 4x10 drywall, board feet of lumber, even the saw blade thickness I use is 1/8.
I am from Canada and metric was adopted in the mid to late 1970's. I am a serious woodworker and I have a difficult time time envisioning anything in metric. Am I giving away my age here?
When metric finally becomes the standard I will probably wish I took the time to learn it better but I believe it will not happen in my life time.
As a closing metric thought, What do you figure metric will do to the time clock or the calendar? Something has got to be done about these none conforming measurement devices.
Peter
I think we went metric in '67, not sure, wasnt round then. <G>
All our sheet goods are metric, as is all timber. A standard sized sheet of MDF would be 1200 x 2400 mm, pretty close to the 8 x 4 sheet i think. It isnt a problem anyway cos the imperial one is slightly bigger so I just cut to suit.
I still ask for timber in imperial, such as a 4x2, ( easier to say ) but the dressed size is 90 x 45 mm. The neat thing about metric is it is all about dealing in units of 10. Adding up weird fractions all day would make my brain seize.
Clocks and calenders, I cant see them changing ever. 12 months to a year, 24 hours in a day, thats it. although if someone could get me a couple of extra non working hours in my day i would be pretty happy. :)
Wood Hoon
I agree with AJ. I use a metric steel tape. Dividing is alot easier without the fractions for my head.
What has improved my accuracy has not really been the tape, but what I mark with. I have a very fine brass scratch awl. Since I threw away the pencil, my work is better.
Frank
This weekend I finally bought a simple construction calculator, so I can add or subtract all those damn fractions, e.g., 4 3/8 + 6 3/32 - 1 1/2. I should have bought it years ago.
You mean all wood products in North America are based on imperial system. The rest of the world is not. As such you are a minority. Metric is much easier, I have worked extensively in both and there is no comparison.
Philip
Hi Philip, The funny thing with building product that have adopted metric is that the manufacture did not convert the total product to metric. For example plywood might be 11mm thick but it is 4 feet wide by 8 feet long. 15mm rebar is 20 feet long. My wife buys fabric 5 metres long but it is 60 inches wide.
For products that are totally metric measures, you can bet the price is a lot higher. In some cases the price increase is prohibitive.
In Canada, 27 years after converting to metric, imperial measures are still part of most peoples day, even if they do not think it. One thing that will never be converted to metric is land. Although people can say, "I have 259 hectares," it was originally surveyed in imperial measures. This person owns one square mile of land and a lot of them are circled by country roads making it impossible to change.
Does anyone know a source of reasonably priced measuring tools--tapes, rules, folding rules--marked in inches and decimal inches? That is 3.15", 64.78", and the like.
For my purposes, that would be ideal. Almost all furniture components are shorter than 100 inches, and 1/64" is a little less than .02 inches, so there would be no need for measurements to have more than two digits before the decimal and two digits after the decimal. The only drawback with metric measurements that I see is that they sometimes involve inconveniently lengthy numbers: Baltic birch plywood, I believe, comes in sheets 1525mm square.
Don,
Starretts, of course. Oh, you said reasonably priced. Most machinist rules are marked in decimals. Check Garrett Wade, or even Grizzly.
Jeff
Jeff-
I guess I just have a really bad idea. I was aware that Starrett makes a decimal-inch rule, and that's why I qualified the price. But nowhere in my on-line searches can I find such a ruler at any price--Reid Tool, McMaster-Carr, Garrett Wade, Grizzly. Guess I'll switch to kilometers and 64ths of kilometers.
I use everything most everyone else uses, and story sticks. I find a dial micrometer unbeatable for doing thickness planing work, and for executing mortise and tenon cuts. Most all marking is done with a knife.
MSC has 48" rules with decimal graduation. In my 98/99 catalog, the flexible rule, order number 06512677, is $113.25 and the rigid rule, order number 06513923, is $84.
http://www.mscdirect.com
(800)645-7270
Edited 10/3/2002 12:27:04 AM ET by Uncle Dunc
Thanks for the lead.
The Baltic birch plywood size sounds to me like an imperial size stated in millimetres.Most of Europe uses the centimetric system, in which your ply measurement would be 152.5 but UK, for some reason best known to the powers-that-be, chose to go with the millimetric.I find it easier to subtract 40 from 86 than I do 19/16" from 33/8"
I guess we just don't have that problem here because imperial never existed here. We did have other measuring systems 300 to 400 years ago" Roman spans" "Milanese Hands" and another french one who's nane I can't recall. Yours is the same sort of problem that was common here from 1500 until the French established the metric system in Europe.Now everything is metric and no one would know how to use any other system. We buy wood by the cubic meter, plywood is 4mm,10mm,12mm, 15mm Etc... in various metric widths and lengths. Producers have problems here when they have to make a product for shipping to north america (converting to imperial).
Although one thing here for some odd reason is in imperial, water and gas pipes. It drives everyone mad but I guess the difficulty of converting to standard does not make it worth it.Anyway metric is still much eaiser and anywhere you travel it is always the same.
Philip
I use a folding rule for all tool setups although I have recectly begun using story sticks for building multiples. Great for keeping everything the same and gives you a template to use years later if need be.
I also use a 10' tape measure for initial rough cuts and to measure diagonals for square.
Kell
16' Starret tape for rough, 12" & 6" Starret combo squares for setbacks off of edges and for depth, scale on TS Fence, scale on fastrack mitre gauge fence for stop , scale on chopsaw for stop, and a dial caliper for thickness. But when ever possible, the measuring armada sits idle in favor of using the mating part or panel.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I couldn't agree more. One of the most important lessons I've learned is to forget about the tape measure as much as possible. Base the size of the drawer front on whether it fits in the drawer opening, not on how large or small the drawer opening is "supposed" to be. When you need to cut two pieces of the same width, cut them at the same time on the tablesaw without moving the fence. There is so much inherent inaccuracy in measuring tools (other than story sticks and the like), you're better off not using them.
I use nothing but steel rules and an electronic caliper...for furniture. For rough cuts I use a Stanley tape.
I use a story stick...made with Veritas bar heads (I think that's what they're called) to do ANY comparison...much better than any ruler, tape, etc....for comparison...
Lee Valley has a great set of steel rules for $15...you get a 6", a 12" an 18" and a 24" (I think those are correct..check the website)...they're well made, consistent (between each other) and don't rust, etc. good etched markings at the 16th inch increments..first couple of inch markings are 32nd I believe...good value for the accuracy.
lp
I do use a tape for rough carpentry, but for the fine stuff I use a Brown & Sharpe combo square (all three heads available) for < 12" and a dial caliper with depth capability for thickness and depth measurments to 6". I use an 18" and 36" steel rules for larger measurements.
I am shifting to the use of story sticks more and more; in fact that's pretty much how I use the combo square, setting the head to the exact distance rather than trying to read the inches and fractions with these aging eyes.
I use a locking stop on my cutoff sleds and make multiple rips with a single fence setting, consistancy being more critical than absolute measurement in inches and fractions.
Edited 9/30/2002 4:22:05 PM ET by Lee
Edited 9/30/2002 4:24:35 PM ET by Lee
Stanley 12' tape for the long stock, an etched 3' steel rule for the shorter, and a 12" Staretts combo square for fine work.
Jeff
Stanley,
I'm with you on the calipers! We've had posts and threads in the past with people claiming that wood moves so much that thousandths don't matter.... Sure makes a difference in M&Ts if you ask me.
I have a 1500 mm (about five feet for you imperialists) steel rule I keep slipped away inside my table saw fence rail (I have a Jet with a hollow steel rail guide). Makes it very convenient for setting the saw up accurately.
But as was mentioned above, it is pobably more important to keep the parts measured against other parts rather than relying too much on a graduated measuring device.
Scott
To me it is all about acceptable tolerances. If I measure the lenght of a piece that is 60 inches and I am off 1%, that is 0.6", which for even a carpenter is unacceptable. If I measure something that is supposed to be 1" and I want to maintain that same level of tolerance, then I have to be within +/- 0.005. There is just no way that anybody can do that with a steel rule or, god forbid, a tape. For accurate joinery and shaper set-up, calipers are an absolute must!
I remember somebody telling me that the thickness of a new dollar bill is 0.0045". If the tenons are a new dollar bill too thick, assembly will be a difficult or you run the risk of splitting the wood around the mortise.
And yet I go into numerous shops and the people are measuring thickness out of the planer with a tape. I wonder how they can get anything to fit. For about $30, dial calipers, in my mind, are a very reasonable and wise investment.
For accurate joinery and shaper set-up, calipers are an absolute must!
Do you really think that accurate joinery requires the use of a dial caliper, or is it that accurate manufacturing requires the use of a dial caliper?
For shaper set up I use NO measuring device other than a small piece of wood cut off from an earlier set up that serves as a guide (a very accurate guide) for that particular profile/cutter.
Jeff
Are they not one and the same? The last time I made joints for the sake of just making a joint (excepting a demonstration I did) was back in the '60's when I was in college.
Maybe my QC background is taking precidence in my thinking but how does one define quality? What exactly is a quality piece of wood? What is a quality piece of furniture? A quality car? A quality house?
How does anyone create a quality item? And how does one duplicate quality? (as when you make more than one of a particular item).
To me, it is based entirely on some measureable quantification. When you measure an inch, a centimeter, a cubit, a foot, whatever, what exactly is that measurement and how close are you to it?
Before I go into the shop to bulid something, I have a plan/drawing that is dimensioned. If that drawing indicates that final lumber thickness will be 3/4", how important is the initial thickness? How important is it that the lumber is within some +/- variation? How much variation will be acceptable for a table top? If the allowable variation in a 3/4" thick top is +/- 1/8" (0.125"), will you be proud of the end result (quality) and if you are attempting to sell the item, will it be acceptable to the customer/client?
Further, during processing, you will follow some machining sequence. The purpose of each step is to remove a certain amount of material. If you want a 3/4" table top, do you start with 3/4 rough sawn lumber? The importance of accurate measurements during the machining sequence cannot be understated. Take too much off at the planer and want to maintain a target thickness of 3/4" you might have to accept the ripple of planer knife marks. Take too little off at the planer, and to reach the desired dimension, you might have to do more sanding/scraping (which is less efficient).
Unless you build by eyeball and then subsequently hand fitting everything, you will be making measurements. It is entirely up to you to determine the level of accuracy (tolerances) you want. If your finest measurement increment is 1/16th of an inch (0.0625), I contend that your final piece will not have the same level of quality (fit, strength of joints, etc) as mine if I am capable of measurement increments of a thousandth of an inch (0.001). And if you do attain the same accuracy, I am certain that with regard to set-up adjustments, I can get there quicker than you can.
A good example of this are the threads on adjusting screws -- a screw with 16 TPI means one whole revolution will adjust the setting 0.0625"). A half turn will move it 0.03125; etc. If I know that I have to move a shaper fence 0.018, then I know that I have to do a hair more than a quarter turn. How do you do it? Eyeball? Make it larger and then later do another machining step (sanding, hand planing, resawing the back edge?
For $30, I think a dial caliper is a good investment in insuring consistency and quality in my pieces, and as a way to quickly make accurate set-up.
Further if an individual is going to invest in expensive (high QUALITY) tooling, they better be able to actually measure the difference/benefits for that additional expenditure. Otherwise they could be getting ripped off!
And to pose a related question, how do individuals mark their measurements?
Wow? Are we talking about woodworking or machining? In what applications would such accuracy as you describe is necessary? How many of us own a miter gauge or a chop saw or table saw capable of cutting to those kinds of tolerances? I'm not sure anyone makes a blade that will cut with that kind of accuracy. Such demands seem to exceed not only the capabilities of the machinery, but the practical limits of the material as well. A board that measures 3.746" today will not measure the same tomorrow in even the best of environments. Such is the nature of wood.
I've always been under the impression that our hand tools have a large role to play in the final fitting of a piece. Cut a miter as accurately as I can, then finish for an exact fit with a hand plane or shooting board. Surface plane the table top to as close to 3/4" as possible, finish with sandpaper, smoothing plane, or scraper.
Does it matter at all if my table top is +or- 3/1000" or even 3/64" so long as the surface is flat and smooth? If the legs on one set of chairs I make are 3/100" longer than those I made for a previous set, is one set of chairs intrinsically better than the other?
I should think that symmetry, harmony, proportion, and beauty should be our focus. Good joinery is, of course, essential to the craft. But wood working is a craft, and an art, and - although it uses science- it is not the slave of science. No art is a measurable quantification, and for that we can be thankful. If it were, the likes of Seymour and Chippendale would be despised and we'd turn to Starrett or Brown and Sharpe as our sources of inspiration.
Jeff
Edited 10/3/2002 9:21:30 AM ET by Jeff K
Wasn't it the Englishman William Morris in the 19th century that started the arts and craft movement?
Please re-read my initial comments about tolerance levels. I want to work within some +/- tolerance more or less as a percent of the dimension.
If you edge join two boards, how much variation can you have in that joint? If there is a 0.005 gap, you see light through the joint. I just joined two boards to make a table top 56" wide and I was taking a shaving with my plane 0.002" thick for the entire 7' length of those boards. I had to because there was no way I was going to muscle those two boards together with clamps.
If I make rails and stiles for a door frame, don't the tenons have to be the same thickness across the width of the piece? If the board is joined flat (face and edge), how difficult is it to make a uniform groove with a three wing shaper cutter the length of the piece? For the raised panels, how difficult is it to obtain a good tolerances for the edge that fits into that groove? I know for certain that if there is a 0.010 variation (+/- 0.005) from end edge machining and side edge machining, it is visible and I have got to sand it smooth where those two meet. And if I sand it, it looses its crispness. More importantly, sanding to even that surface takes time, and as the saying goes -- time is money.
If you work with veneered material (eg hardwood plywood), how far can you be "off" before you start sanding through the veneer. That veneer was likely sliced to a 50th of an inch (0.020) to begin with, and that was before the panel was sanded after pressing. For dovetails for drawer sides, what is an acceptable fit? If the tails are 1/64th" (0.0156) too small, the sides will separate from the front; if you are that much over size, you crush the wood going in and run the risk of splitting.
I think sometimes good craftspersons underestimate the accuracy to which they work. If you cannot measure to that accuracy, you really don't know how good you can be.
But also do not assume that all my measurements are that precise. A seven foot length of board for me is not +/- 0.005. But for joinery when my target dimension is 0.25", a 10% variation (+/- 5%) is +/-0.0125".
And if I do wood working/machining, I try to assemble the joints ASAP so that the dimensional change does not become a critical factor.
I think that for most precision work in woodworking, using the usual measuring tools results in significant errors. There is no question that precision work distinguishes itself from other kinds
The greatest accuracy is gotten not by measuring one piece and attempting to transer that measurement to another piece. In that case, the measurement is an anolog of the first and the inaccuracies that are inherent in determining that value (reading) and transferring that value and marking the second piece are significant.
The greatest accuracies come from the methods that allow direct transfer of one object to another. Such as trimming a drawer to its opening by careful planing. There is no way to seaprately measure the opening and the drawer to achieve the fit. It must be a direct fitting process.
The same kind of accuracy can be obtained by using a "stickering" method or stop block method to transfer between objects, where distansces are obtained by setting some moveable device so that it is the same size as the thing being measured, disregarding any notion of a "measuring system" of units.
I use a system of spacer blocks and stop blocks with a router jig and table saw to cut mortises and tenons. The same spacers travel between the motising operation on the router jig (where all measurements are made from a single reference surface) to the table saw to locate the tenons from a single reference surface on the tenon piece. The spacer blocks are of arbitrary thickness, that is, their actual "measurement" in some system of units is irrelevant . They all represent some specific measurement (distance of mortice from edge of piece, thickness of saw blade). Since they travel from mortise piece to tenon piece, the dimensions that they establish are very, very accurate.
I can cut double, even triple tenon joints that go together without any further "fitting." I estimate that the accuracies that such methods achieve are better than my dial calipers can give.
Try cutting two sticks to length using stop blocks, vs measuring them, knifing them and cutting to the knifed line with the greatest of diligence. The stop block method reduces inaccuracy to an immeasureable quantity.
Rich
Well said, Rich.
Stanley's numbers may be right. I'm sitting here holding a hardback book with good paper. One inch of that paper seems to consist of about 325 sheets, so each sheet is about .003" if I did the math right. I guess I would not want to edge join two boards if you could fit one of those pieces of paper between them.
My position is that one can craft a superbly fitting joint without ever knowing the actual tolerance to which the joint was cut.
I do believe that dial gauges are important in testing and tuning machinery, for example, blade square to table, fence parallel to blade, and all that rot. And to the extent that well-tuned power equipment CAN lead to well fitted joinery then I agree with you.
I just joined two boards to make a table top 56" wide and I was taking a shaving with my plane 0.002" thick for the entire 7' length of those boards
I also refine edges with a handplane, however I've never stopped to figure out the thickness of a shaving. If it's clear that a light pass is needed I just back off the iron a bit and go for it, and almost always with outstanding results. I'm not quite sure how I could make the adjustment to my 07 should it be cutting a shaving .002" thick and a shaving at .004" thick was needed. I suppose that I would simply make two passes while checking the mating edges after each pass.
I guess I'm more of a light, medium, or thick shaving kind of guy.
I would really like to see some of your stuff. Please post a picture of something. I am kind of like the other guys that use stop blocks and the like. I go by feel quite a bit and the ever popular "eyeball it" from time to time. I do use measuring tools and I do use calipers from time to time and I am interested in doing good solid work, but I mainly use them to do initial set up on machines making sure fences are square etc. I have never considered percentages of a tolerance. I can understand the concept, just never thought of using it in practice.
However, when I cut dovetails, and the end result is a nice clean tight fit, I could care less about this or that measurement or +/- that percentage. I dont know about anyone else, but when I am doing something like cutting dovetails, it is me the saw and the wood (and the chisel). for me it is more of a "feel" kind of a thing. Which is why your apparent use of critical tolereances intrigues me. Quite frankly I would really like to see the end result of measuring to this degree.
A good craftsperson works to high levels of accuracy whether or not measurements are made or taken. A dial caliper is simply another tool albeit one that I consider to be extremely useful.
Many individuals are intimidated by it because of the readings it provides -- what exactly does a measurement of 2.271 mean/equal? Like any other tool, one simply has to learn how to use it; my contention is that once you do begin, it will become indispensible!
Per your request for an image of my work, see attached. When I have more time (in a few weeks) remind me and I will post images of my lamps (which are extremely precise).
let me try again to attach a file
Thank you for the picture, I look foward to seeing your lamps. I do not feel intimidated by the measurements or precision that tools such as a caliper can offer, quite the contrary. As I mentioned I do use them. I just have never thought in terms of +/- percentages of tolerances or thousanths of an inch to the point where I might write it down as a definite measurement.
My interest is genuine in that I am always interested in new/different ways of doing things as well as different ways of looking at things. I do not want to be the type that is not open to new Ideas. As I think you may have aluded, to woodworkers may already be working to these exact tolerances, they just do not view it that way. For me, I refer to it as "dead on", where you likely attach a measurement to it. Anyway, thanks again for the picture and the and the different view.
"...I want to maintain that same level of tolerance, then I have to be within +/- 0.005."
wOw! that's impressive! I have a friend who works at a machine shop making parts for GE jet engines & Boeing commercial aircraft, and they work to the same tolerances. Have you thought of bidding on some aerospace work?
Art,
My Dad used to be a machinist at International Harvester almost 50 years ago. The made, among other things, engine blocks for American Motors. He speaks of machining those blocks before they were even completely cooled. Now those must have been some interesting tolerances!
Jeff
Edited 10/3/2002 11:51:31 AM ET by Jeff K
Will someone kindly explain to me (to whom almost everything about woodworking is new) what a "story stick" is and how to make and use it? Thanks much..
Bill
A story stick generally means a stick on which the dimensions of the project are marked. For example, if you were building a kitchen you might have an eight foot pole. On that pole you would place marks for the top of the bottom cabinets, the trim, the bottom of the top cabinets, and so forth - every aspect of the kitchen. The idea is that once you've placed the marks on the stick you never again have to measure anything. If you build the kitchen to the marks, you're guarantied that everything will be where it should.
In the shop you can get a little fancier. You can buy these gizmos (someone help with the name) that slide over the ends of two sticks, each maybe half an inch thick and an inch wide. The two stick slide back and forth against one another, and the gizmo has a thumb screw so you can lock them in place. This allows you, for example, to precisely determine the width of a cabinet, lock it in place, then transfer the width to something else, without ever using a tape measure. It's a far, far superior way to "measure" things.
Hope this helps.
Mark Roderick: You can buy these gizmos (someone help with the name) that slide over the ends of two sticks, each maybe half an inch thick and an inch wide.
"Gizmos" works just fine!
A story stick is a scrap of wood, usually, used to transfer increments from one place to another. For example, say you wanted to drill holes into several pieces of wood at specific points, say, starting at one end at 3" 6" 9" then 15" and 20". You would mark these points on the "stick" and with a pencil transfer them to each of the pieces of wood. You can also use a story pole or stick to mark all the points of reference in a room that you would build cabinets for. The height of a door, how far is it from a wall, to the ceiling,to a window etc. So when you got back to the shop you would have all the information you need, provided you made notes on the stick telling what line was what.
Glendo.
Thanks very much, Glendo. I'll be able to use this technique soon. I'm planning to do a built in study in my home.
Bill
ToolDoc,
Let me amend my previous post. On days when my shop looks like it has the last few days, I use whatever I manage to find. (Sometimes this means a quick prayer to St. Anthony asking to find anything!)
Jeff
Edited 10/1/2002 5:19:04 PM ET by Jeff K
HI TOOLDOC , I use a stanley 16' tape and a 12" veritus steel hook rule, and a old try square, all in imperial style METRIC is to hard on the eyes.
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