Replies

1. 
   tsproul | May 03, 2004 06:52pm | #1

   I voted BLO/Tung....but I also follow Moser's standard and wax after allowing the oil to cure for a bit.

   Tim
2. 
   HowardAcheson | May 03, 2004 08:55pm | #2

   Perhaps the most used finish is varnish or polyurethane varnish. I don't see it in you list of choices. Marketing data indicates that varnishes are the most used and sold finishes by a far amount. They exceed all the others combined last I saw.

3. 
   Tao | May 03, 2004 11:02pm | #3

   What about pre- and post-cat lacquers, conversion varnishes, cat. urethane, even a category for catayzed finishes in general?

4. 
   WayneL5 | May 04, 2004 03:12am | #4

   Frequently in these surveys you guys at Taunton come up with some wierd choices, often leaving out answers many people would like to give.  This one is a good example, you left out polyurethane, one of the most widely used finishes.  It does not fit under any of the catagories you offered.

   It would be good if you developed a better internal process for developing surveys.  What you have does not seem to be working up to the standards your publishing activities achieve.

1. 
   HowardAcheson | May 04, 2004 06:22pm | #5

   I'm not sure, but the initiator of this survey may not be a Taunton employee. I think anyone can create a survey on this forum.

1. 
   RoyinMD | May 04, 2004 07:26pm | #6

   Ruth,

   Along the lines of the last few comments is exactly why I answered "Other" to the survey.

   Enjoy, Roy

2. 
   jazzdogg | May 05, 2004 01:30am | #7

   "Frequently in these surveys you guys at Taunton come up with some wierd choices, often leaving out answers many people would like to give"

   Waynel5,

   While I doubt Taunton's intentions concerning the finishes from which they'd like us to choose were intentionally biased, these kinds of surveys generally leave me questioning the motives of their proponents.

   It's not at all uncommon for survey questions, and their multiple-choice answers, to be crafted in such a way as to elicit only the kinds of responses they want to hear. Political polsters and commerical concerns are famous for these tactics.

   Somewhere in the recesses of my feeble mind the words of Henry Ford are spilling forth: "You can have your Model-T in any color - as long as its black"

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   WayneL5 | May 05, 2004 04:09am | #8

   I certainly don't suspect any intentional bias at all either, and I know you did not imply that I did.  It appears to be just not being thoughtful and following a careful process for crafting the question and responses.

   One possible technique would be to test the question out on a group of people, large enough to give a good range of answers, without providing any choices.  That is, as a subjective rather than an objective question.  Then, the choices given by the respondents can be used to put together a list of multiple choices for the survey.  Another technique would be researching sales figures for different possible choices to see what  is sold.  A third technique would be to consult industry sources to determine how the industry breaks down and classifies its field.

   Any of these techniques would have produced a survey that did not omit polyurethane as a possible choice to the question of what finish a woodworker most uses.

   This wasn't too important to me the first couple of times.  But since these surveys are becoming more frequent and not becomming any better designed, I felt it was time to speak.  Taunton is so good at the other things they do.

5. 
   nikkiwood | May 05, 2004 09:22am | #9

   I agree with the other respondents.

   This little survey was put together by someone who is 1) unforgiveably dumb, 2) inexperienced, or 3) deliberately trying to push the results in a certain direction.

   If either 1 or 2, the problem could have been easily corrected by getting a 30 second reaction from any of the editors with wooworking experience.

   If #3, shame on Taunton.

1. 
   AndyCharron1 | May 05, 2004 05:12pm | #10

   Although I read this forum regularly, I don't normally post responses. However, I could not let your comments regarding Ruth Dobsevage go unanswered. In regards to your assertion that she is "unforgiveably dumb": Ruth was the editor of the first book I did for Taunton, "Spray Finishing". We worked very closely together over about a six month period and I can state with certainty that Ruth is anything but "dumb". In fact, she is probably one of the best editors I have ever worked with. Her questions, comments and editing of the raw material I gave her was not only impressive, but made for a much better book.

   As for your second assertion that she is "inexperienced": Although I can not directly comment on whatever actual woodworking experience Ruth has, I will say that as far as the woodworking publications business goes, Ruth is one of the most experienced people I have ever worked with. In fact, I was quite disappointed when I was told she would not be the editor on next book I did for Taunton.

   As for your third comment that Taunton may be "trying to push the results in a certain direction", I can only ask why they would be doing that? What would they have to gain? It sounds to me like you, and some of the other posters in this thread, are turning what I view as a very basic, simple and innocent general information poll into something sinister. In all the years I have worked with the people at Taunton I have always been impressed with their professionalism and have never once picked up any indication that they have a hidden agenda that motivates them. I think your post regarding Ruth is not only ill-informed, but unnecessarily mean-spirited in both tone and content.

   Andy Charron

1. 
   ptu | Dec 04, 2006 07:49pm | #40

   thanks Andy

1. 
   AndyCharron1 | Dec 04, 2006 08:29pm | #41

   Huh? I'm not quite sure what you are referring to.

1. 
   loucarabasi | Dec 05, 2006 03:59am | #42

   Hey, Whats wrong with lacquer based conversion varnishes. I Love them

   -Lou

2. 
   ptu | Dec 10, 2006 08:38pm | #43

   I'm not sure either, must have clicked the wrong name,sorry

2. 
   Ruth | May 05, 2004 05:15pm | #11

   Nikkiwood and others, here is a snippet from my post of March 9 in the previous poll thread, where many of the same issues were raised:

   "The polls we put on this site serve many purposes, most of them minor in the grand scale of things. We use them to gather quick and dirty market research, to add an interactive feature to our site (the polls on Knots usually appear concurrently on the magazine home page), to amuse and stimulate discussion. Because we are limited by the software to yes/no responses and a single-choice answer, and because space constraints limit the number of selections we want to offer, it is impossible to construct a poll that satisfies all users. Especially discerning, analytical users such as yourselves. Insulting anyone's intelligence is the last thing we want to do.

   Please just accept these little 'exercises' for what they are. If you find them annoying, beneath you, stupid, irrelevant -- just ignore them and go on to a topic that interests you more. "

   I would add to this only the following: the polls are a very, very small part of our work responsibilities at Taunton. If we leave out a choice you would have voted for, we are sorry, but life (yours and ours) will go on.  Ruth DobsevageTaunton New Media

1. 
   HowardAcheson | May 05, 2004 10:57pm | #12

   >>to amuse and stimulate discussion

   Well, that was accomplished.

   And, I agree it's time to move on.

2. 
   nikkiwood | May 06, 2004 02:02am | #14

   It is interesting that you have chosen to put the onus for a bad effort on the reader/consumer, i.e. "If you find them annoying, beneath you, stupid, irrelevant -- just ignore them and go on to a topic that interests you more. "

   If you discussed this with some of your more experienced publishing hands (e.g. Roman, Burkin, et al), you would begin to understand that even inconsequential public activities such as this reflect negatively on Taunton.

   You completely miss the point with statements such as: "it is impossible to construct a poll that satisfies all users." Any first year market research student will tell you the first priority is to avoid alienating your respondents -- which you have done here by offering choices that do not square with common practice choices. I'm sorry, but it makes you look dumb.

   Even with the constraints you outline, it is possible to do this kind of thing -- but only if you are willing to invest a minimal amount of thought and expertise in the exercise.

   Otherwise, it is better to do nothing at all.

   If on the other hand, it is your intention (as you say) "to amuse and stimulate discussion," you can do so by simply throwing out an open-ended question, and let people have at it.

1. 
   SgianDubh | May 06, 2004 02:35am | #15

   nikkiwood, whilst I think your point of view was expressed a little too forcefully, I must admit that I've never felt an urge to actually vote in any of Ruth's surveys.

   They've always missed a category (I think) that I've felt comfortable answering positively to. I find it best to just ignore the whole thing rather than get pissed off about something that was not aimed at me in the first place.

   There was a survey Ruth instigated a few months ago about training we'd received. There wasn't a category for full training and qualifying as a furnituremaker-- it only takes about four years to do that-- and I didn't feel like responding 'Other.'

   Where I live, it's quite hard to get a job as a woodwhacker if you're not qualified. But that doesn't apply in the US. Any fool there that owns a hammer is a woodworking king.

   Now that should piss off a few people, ha, ha. Meanwhile I'll nip back to the index and see if there are any interesting questions worth getting to grips with. If there aren't, this'll be my last post tonight. Slainte.RJFurniture

2. 
   alanplanesaw | May 15, 2004 03:58am | #21

   I agree with your comments and observations.  I was heavily involved in research in graduate school and know that there is a science to polls.  A researcher can control the outcomes and make it say whatever they want.  A good researcher would not do that if they are really want to know the truth.

   If the polls here are not developed by someone who knows the subject matter AND how to construct surveys, then the results of the surveys are not trustworthy and may be very inaccurate.  Therefore, Taunton would be drawing conclusions on reader's opinions that are not accurate. 

   Quick and dirty research results in unreliable conclusions. 

   Alan -- planesaws

6. 
   Pondfish | May 06, 2004 01:02am | #13

   I feel the survey might have been better worded or organized, since it does not allow for specifying two-step finishes.  My favorite finish is penetrating oil followed by either shellac or lacquer; but I hesitate to say "other" (so I voted oil/varnish).

   Since finishes can be complex, a simple survey may not reveal woodworker's true leanings.

7. 
   Mackwood | May 07, 2004 12:04am | #16

   Ruth,

   If you mean finish as in the "final" finish that's one thing but if you mean which "finish" product then it's hands down shellac.  I use it under a lot of things and sometimes as a "final finish" by itself.

   Regards,

   Mack

   "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

8. 
   PeteToo | May 08, 2004 11:42pm | #17

   I voted "Other" in your What finish do you use?" poll because I use all or almost all of them depending on circumstances.  You did not offer an "All of the above" or "Most of the above" vote.  I work with walnut, cherry, maple and oak for most (hardwood) projects.  This requires an open mind for finishes and also for glues and cements.

   Thank you for an excellent publication.

   Pete

9. 
   lwj2 | May 09, 2004 05:43pm | #18

   While I voted for linseed/tung, it's not exactly accurate, but as close as I could come given the choices offered.

   I felt (as have some other respondents) that "other" didn't work for me.

   I use a mixture of tung, linseed and turpentine as my primary finish. I generally put down a coat of shellac first (either orange or blonde, depending on the wood and effect desired) to limit blotching, then several thin coats of oil.

   My final step is to use a wax topcoat, using a mix of beeswax dissolved in turpentine, buffing to a soft shine.

   Leon Jester, Roanoke VA

10. 
    shaker1 | May 09, 2004 11:00pm | #19

       My latest period piece involved the old colonial time frame, paint made of milk with a wax for a top finish. Most of today's craftsman that create windsor chairs use milkpaint with no topcoat.

    Tis a gift to be simple

    Tis a gift to be free

    Tis a gift to come down

    Where we ought to be

1. 
   Leadpaw | May 19, 2004 12:17am | #22

   I coat with a layer of 2% fat milk with just enough each of builders lime and borax to stay suspended. Well wetted, and rubbed in and wiped off. After it drys I wet, rub in and wipe off another layer with safflower oil. This finish is flexible, durable, weather resistant, insect resistant, mold resistant, and has a great feel, is environmentally sound, and cheap. If it is going on a food surface I leave out the borax. I add a bit of rosemary oleoresin to the safflower oil when I first open the bottle. This is a great preservative and antioxidant. With a change in the amount of oil I use I can go from a dead flat finish to a satin finish.

   -Bob

11. 
    BertieUK | May 14, 2004 10:20pm | #20

    Shame wax isn't listed as an option. Most of my cabinet work is in oak - that traditionally is sealed with shellac then finished with wax

12. 
    jobranch | May 28, 2004 04:15am | #23

    Last project I used a wipe-on polyurethane - would that be the oil/varnish finish listed?

    Jeff

1. 
   bleubassplyr | May 28, 2004 06:58pm | #24

   For a finish I use the dew from spring tulips gathered at dawn by a naked 22 year old babe. No wax needed. Just kidding.

   Geez everybody, lighten up. There are more old drunkards than old doctors.  Ben Franklin

1. 
   jazzdogg | May 28, 2004 09:08pm | #26

   " I use the dew from spring tulips gathered at dawn by a naked 22 year old babe. No wax needed."

   Bleu,

   You have stimulated my interest in the "manufacturing process."

    -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   bleubassplyr | May 28, 2004 09:44pm | #27

   I won't comment on what I use to buff each piece to a satin luster.There are more old drunkards than old doctors.  Ben Franklin

13. 
    Gretchen | May 28, 2004 07:44pm | #25

    As we say over at CT, you didn't hit me. It is oil based varnish, NON-poly.

    Gretchen
14. 
    jhastie | Jun 16, 2004 04:43pm | #28

    I agree that Polyurethane varnish is also a good choice.

    It kind of depends for me.  If I have a finish that that has to withstand liquids over time, I try to use satin polyurethane varnish.  I like to build coats and then lightly wet sand the finsih (flattening) and then final buff with oil and steel wool.

    Other finishes are also good, depending upon the situation.

    I don't use polyurethane if I am realmalgamating an exisitng finish.

    Lacquer is good for touching up lacquer.  I believe that over time it doesn't always hold up as well (based upon fiurniture I have had to refinish).  It certainly is nice to apply.

    I still use Boiled Linseed oil on gunstocks.  It is easy to repair the finish.

    On wooden boats, I used to use Marine varnish for the ultra-violet inhibitors.  It also adheres fairly well to Poly-sulfide caulk when it can't be avoided.

    I am not a pro, so take my reply with a grain of salt.

    My favorite refinishing is in conservatore mode.

    John

1. 
   mousejockey | Jun 17, 2004 09:19am | #29

   LTV, equal parts linseed oil, turpentine and varnish. Steel wool it in and wipe it off. You don't need to raise the grain beforehand, it will create a slurry and fill the pores as you steel wool it in. I usually set the jar in a sink of hot water and warm it up before the first coat, it may not make a difference but  that's what I do. Additional coats with a rag, then wipe. Add more varnish to the mix after a couple of coats. It's a lot of work but works well and is almost idiotproof.

   Make something idiotproof and they will just come up with a better idiot!

   Chief

1. 
   scooter1 | Jun 19, 2004 02:11am | #30

   Chief is pretty close to what I use, and I got it from Don Kondra here about 3 years ago:

   1 part tung oil; 1 part Behlen Rockhard Table Varnish; 2 parts Behlen Varnish Reducer; and about a teaspoon of Japan Dryer. Make only enough for a day or two of finish. It will harden in the can in about a week.

   Flood the area with a brush, foam pad or rag and let sit for 5 minutes or until it just barely starts to tack up, then flood again and let sit for another 5 minutes. Wipe off completely with a rag. Dries to the touch in 3 hours can be recoated within 12 hours. No need to sand between coats, unless ya'all have dust nibs.

   Apply 4-5 coats. The final coat can be a tad stronger (less thinner) and have less oil, and I do that inside.

   Let cure for at least a week, then rub out. 220, then 350, then 600, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000, then rubbing compound. Add a dark wax finish to add a nice patina.

   I love this finish. It looks and feels like hand rubbed oil, but acts like poly. It is impervious to water, alcohol etc. Stupidly easy to apply and easy to rub out.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

15. 
    Drewpeacock | Jul 12, 2004 02:26am | #31

    "I don't use finish!"

    What a crock! I guess if you want o draw attentiion to yourself that woud be the reply but...

    Come  on .. either your crap is nectar of the gods and willl endur longer than your first borne or you are really in need of a lesson in preservation!

    Stupid question to trap folks that have a lot of explainiong to do. vbg>

    BTW I LIKE NATURAL STUFF TOO BUT NOT AFET YOU HAVE TAKE A WHACK AT IT!

    go ahead ---- impress me.

    Grizzly ==Aka Bob Oswin

1. 
   JBD | Jul 12, 2004 06:27am | #32

   Sure, different finishes for different uses, but no category for PU?  That is a tad too limiting.

   After I did my boat, I fell in love with epoxy (coatings grade) sealer/filler over highly figured woods, then topcoated with two part automotive urethane.  Awesome rich color from the epoxy soak-in (like oil finishes), and insane gloss and figure enhancement from the topcoat.  Regular polyurethane over the epoxy would do this too, but the two epoxy seal coats are my favorite part.  They create quick build (100% solids), sand great, are clear and don't shrink which (unlike any other finish) won't allow print-through of the wood pores.  I'm doing my entertainment center doors with this system now instead of lacquer. 

   "The furniture designer is an architect." - Maurice DuFrenes (French Art Deco furniture designer, contemporary of Ruhlmann)

   http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro   http://www.johnblazydesigns.com

   
16. 
    exotic | Aug 09, 2004 03:35pm | #33

    Although I will use any finish that seems appropriate to the piece I am creating I have become paticularly fond of using multiple coats of an oil such as Watco Danish Finishing oil ( natural) followed by Butchers paste wax (many coats) to seal.  this yields an extreamly pleasnt patena and aesthetic feel to the wook.  I must admit this is a finish I use primarily on shop made tools such as planes, saws scrapers and other hand tools.  It allows for easy repair of the inevitable wear and tear in use.

    A second favorite if multiple coats (20-40) of hand rubber lacquer.  I generally finish this with a rottenstone final polish.  More than once I have been accused of making a piece of plastic after this type of finish.

    Bottm line I like to try to fit the finish to the piece and the customer.

17. 
    ene | Sep 10, 2004 12:24am | #34

    A question for all of you with finishing experience -

    We're looking for a finish for hardwood tables (walnut etc.) that will be used as dining tables in a public school - lots of wear and tear, spilled juice, cleaning with a light water/bleach solution etc....

    What would you recommend for a finish that is tough but easily repairable? (won't scratch, etc?) Any thoughts about Good Stuff? Other products we might not know about? Special recipes/combos?

    Appreciate your input!

1. 
   Pondfish | Sep 11, 2004 12:29am | #35

   If you don't want scratches, don't use the tables!  They'll get scratched.  As you expect, they'll probably get abused in all sorts of ways.  Therefore I would opt for a readily repairable and rejuvanable (is that a word?) finish:  oil.  Walnut looks great with an oil finish, and all you need to do is give them an annual re-oiling to rejuvanate them--something easily done, say, around summer break.

   Danish oil is my favorite, but you can use Tung oil or boiled linseed oil (my least favorite).  There are also a slew of wiping varnish finishes available that dry a little quicker and harder (varnish is essentially a cross linked oil).

1. 
   TomHigby | Sep 11, 2004 06:25pm | #36

   Tables should last much longer now than in the 40's when I was in school: I always carried a pocket knife to carve initials on the tables.  Little did I know that I was carrying a terrible weapon!

   Tom

2. 
   BarryO | Sep 12, 2004 10:09pm | #37

   I use Danish oil (an oil/varnish mix) the most, but it's used on items that will be treated relatively gently.  Wipe-on type oil finishes are easy to apply, look great, but not at all durable.  I can't see them standing up to the abuse they'll get in institutional use.

   Spilled juice and disenfecting solutions on Danish oil?  IMHO it won't work.

   "durable" and "easily repairable" are somewhat contradictory.  For a finish that is very scratch-resistant, when scratches do occur, they take a bit of work to repair.  But less than dealing with the stained and water-damaged wood that results when a Danish oil-finished piece gets stained and soaked.

   I think polyurethane varnish is the best choice here.   Very durable.  Either oil-based or water based, the first looks a little better, the second is easier to work with.

   Walnut tables in a public school dining room?  'glad my taxes aren't paying for it.  I would think such funds would be better off spent in the classroom.

   Edited 9/12/2004 3:12 pm ET by BarryO

2. 
   frenchy | Dec 04, 2006 06:52pm | #38

   ene,

     Now the heated debate will begin..

          Use shellac please! It's wonderfull on wood and nothing repairs as easy.. all you need to do is wipe a rag soaked with denatured alcohol and scratches disappear! when the finish gets a little thin,  brush on some more shellac, it melts into the old shellac!   It doesn't matter if it's a week, a year, or a decade (or more) later.

    Shellac is one of the harder finishes out there so scratches are less likely to occur.

    Shellac is wonderfully benign. you eat shellac whenever you take a pill. So since they use it to seal medicene it is as safe as houses..

    It's rich and deep as you want it to be.   Shiney without looking pasticy.  It's extremely easy to apply.   You can spray brush or rag it on and if like me you are a terrible painter put it on nice and thin (mix with more denatured alcohol to thin it out )  and it will flow wonderfully. it's clearly a case of where many thin coats makes a wonderful flawless finish..

        

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Dec 04, 2006 07:01pm | #39

   Not heat, just facts. I like and use shellac when it is the appropriate finish and I want the benefits it offers.>> Shellac is one of the harder finishes out there so scratches are less likely to occur.Because it is hard, it will scratch more easily. The harder the finish, the more easily scratched. Varnish and poly varnish are deliberately softer finishes to provide more scatch resistance. That's the reason that varnish and poly varnish are the preferred floor finishes.Shellac and lacquer are very hard finishes and can be worked to a much higher polish or gloss for that reason.Howie.........