Replies

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Nov 29, 2002 09:19pm | #1

   Factories and cabinetry shops use conversion varnish for kitchen and bath cabinetry. But, you need a spray booth and good respiratory protection equipment along with the proper spray equipment and solvents for catalyzed finishes.

   A good alternative is the water-based conversion varnish from Target Coatings - http://www.targetcoatings.com - it uses a different chemical structure to produce the same durability and is a lot less hazardous than it's solvent based counterpart. You should still use adequate ventilation and the proper respirator when spraying any water-base finish.

   If you are using the finish on bare wood, start with the EmTech sealer to bring out the grain and figure of the wood. Or, you could use a dewaxed shellac in place of the sealer.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   mdva4 | Nov 30, 2002 05:23am | #2

   Was planing on using Fuji hvlp Q3 system.

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Nov 30, 2002 05:29am | #3

   Nice system.Paul

   F'burg, VA

2. 
   Glendo | Dec 01, 2002 04:47am | #6

   Would there be adhesion problems using conversion varnishes over laquer?

   Glendo.

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 01, 2002 05:45am | #7

   Glendo - The EM8000 Conversion Varnish (CV) from Target Coatings can be applied over any clean and properly prepared clear or pigmented finish, such as lacquers, varnishes or latex/acrylic paints. To prepare the old finish for re-coating, clean it very well and sand the shine off using 320 grit sandpaper.

   The EM8000 CV is a waterborne alkyd urethane/acrylic finish that is pre-catalyzed with an epoxy/silane additive to fortify the cross-linking functions of the hybrid urethane resin. When cured, EM8000 will provide excellent water and chemical resistance comparable to solvent-based CV's.

   Target recommends a maximum film thickness of 2 mils wet per coat to ensure proper curing of each coat. Heavier coats can be applied, but it will take longer to cure. The EM8000 does not crinkle when hot coated (applying coats before the previous coat dries) or over-coated with excessive wet film thickness, as does solvent-based CV's.

   The EM8000 is non-yellowing and provides excellent UV protection. The hybrid alkyd/acylic chemistries provide the warmth and depth that you get with solvent-based polyurethane, but has better adhesion and flexibility.

   You can post questions about Target's products on their forum - http://www.targetcoatings.com/msgboard.html - Jeff Weiss, the owner, usually answers questions within a day or two and will give you all the help you need. All the information I learned about Target's products, I learned from him.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Glendo | Dec 01, 2002 08:50am | #9

   Thanks for the very useful info. I've been using Sherwin-Williams solvent based conv. varnish. It's a good product, but has limited compatability with other types of finishes.

   Cheerz, Glendo.

2. 
   silver77 | Dec 02, 2002 02:38am | #10

   Interesting post and you've piqued my interest in Target. Followed your link and checked out their very impressive website. Their nearst dealer is about 700 miles from me. I don't suppose it ships well in freezing weather...

   I want to use water based lacquer on my next cabinet project. In this one horse town I live in,there is a Chemcraft dealer who has some water based lacquer...ever used it?

   Thanks for the informative post,

   silver

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 02, 2002 03:14am | #11

   Silver - I use a couple of the Chemcraft products and I've been impressed with them (Opti-Set and Opti-Clear) - but I wasn't even aware they had a waterborn finish. Do you know if your local distributor is supplying a Chemcraft waterborn product or is it another brand possibly? The distributor I get Chemcraft from is also the local supplier of Target's products.

   I used to get shipments from Target before a local company started distributing and I had to place my order by Tuesday so I could get it by Friday. They wouldn't ship too close to the weekend so that the product didn't sit in an unheated warehouse or loading dock over the weekend (during freezing weather).

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

   Edited 12/1/2002 8:40:01 PM ET by Paul S

2. 
   silver77 | Dec 02, 2002 08:40am | #12

   It's definitely Chemcraft -my main man at the store is getting me the specs on it so I'll have more details shortly. They had a brush-on water borne lacquer called acrillac which we liked but it had some foaming problems. I'll check to see if they bring in target products. What's the short answer in target?...EmTech 8000 for cabinets and handrails? I skimmed the site but it seems to me it seals as well. It might be easier for me to just bring in one product.

   I looked at your site...that's a pile of work for one week,especially if there is a problem with the finish. How much help do you have? 

   silver

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 03, 2002 01:25am | #13

   Silver - I'd say the Chemcraft is worth checking out. It's local and their other finishes do a great job. They may not be as strong with waterborn finishes as they are with solvent-based, but it's worth some testing to find out.

   The short answer on Target Coatings depends on your requirements. Their Premium Spray Lacquer (PSL) is a good "all-around" finish, but is not the most durable and doesn't have the "solvent" look that the EmTech has. Talk to Jeff Weiss at Target; discuss the level of protection you're looking for, the specific look, cure time, etc. and he can help you pick the best product for your needs.

   Two of us did the furniture in the picture. We pick-up on Friday, start on Monday, and deliver that Friday. We have a good system down and little problems with the finish are a killer. Big problems are a nightmare. I've been so happy since switching to Target that I am truly a fan of their products.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

4. 
   silver77 | Dec 03, 2002 02:45am | #14

   Thanks for the heads-up, Paul. I turned fifty this year ..I like to experiment but I want to get as close as possible before I try new products.

   I'm picking up the waterborne lacquer from Chemcraft tomorrow. Do you have a standard test for new products?

   thanks,

   silver

   tomorrow.

5. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 03, 2002 03:54am | #15

   Siver - Every time I felt like there had to be something better than what I was using, I would test new products based on the weaknesses of the old products. Some of the waterborn finishes I tried, I didn't like from the start - they were worse than the one I was looking to replace. Some looked good for a long time, but eventually some recurring problem sent me looking again.

   So the testing strategy worked out like this. I start by spraying bare red oak to see how much grain raise there is, how it looks, how it sands, and how it handles the pores. Some grain raise is okay; "rip your hand off" rough is a problem. Some waterborn finishes look really bad and you can eliminate them right away. Some are impossible to sand - I think they may have a high rubber content (just kidding, but that's what they sand like). And some just will not flow into the pore no matter how light/thin or heavy/thick you apply them - you get a big, rounded over dimple on every pore no matter what.

   If it gets past this step, I spray a very darkly stained open pored wood (I use Malaysian Rubber wood for this test, but mahogany would probably be a good substitute). I'm looking to see how it handles the pores (some bridge the pore and turn white), if it has a bluish tint (accentuated by the dark color), and for clarity. Again, how it sands between coats and how well the next coat hides the sanding scratches is important (to me). Some finishes show the scratch marks from the previous coat unless you are very painstaking to sand just right - I prefer the finish "bury" the sanding marks so I can move on quickly.

   If the finish looks good at this point, and I think it seems better than the old finish, I'll start using the new one on some pieces while phasing out the old at the same time.

   I don't know how much help this will be, but it works for me.

   If the Chemcraft rep is willing, have him demo the product so you can see any technique tips/tricks he may have.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

6. 
   silver77 | Dec 03, 2002 06:02pm | #16

   Very helpful, Paul S. It gives me a shorthand method for testing...really appreciate your feedback. I'll let you know how it goes,

   silver 

2. 
   Joe_Fusco | Dec 01, 2002 07:59am | #8

   Glendo

   Whenever you do this it is important to remember that the adhesion will only be as good as the coat below the product you are applying. This is the weakest link scenario. You may be creating a GREAT bond between new product and old, but it's the old product that will determine how well the entire coatings new and old adhere in general.

   View Image

   Construction Forums Online!

2. 
   Joe_Fusco | Nov 30, 2002 07:00am | #4

   MDVA4

   Other alterative to Target Coatings are Fuhr International and ML Cambell.

   View Image
   

   Construction Forums Online!

3. 
   noone51 | Nov 30, 2002 02:19pm | #5

   About a year ago I redid the cabs in a rental of mine with wipe on satin poly. The renter just moved out and the cabs only needed a little touch up which was nothing more than wiping on another coat after a thorough TSP cleaning. I was impressed with how well they held up. Paul S's recommendation is the traditionally correct solution for you but I thought I'd throw this out just to give you an alternative.