Replies

1. 
   genecoder | Feb 25, 2008 06:29am | #1

   I figure out all my material cost and and time and usualy for profit i will ad 10% if that makes since.

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Feb 25, 2008 06:50am | #2

   Right now, I am still early in my woodworking career and have 5 years of experience.  I am still learning constantly and finding better way to do things.  Currently, my hourly rate is $25.  This applies to designing, droughting, building, contemplating, watching glue dry, and finishing.  Basically, any time I spend focused on the project.

   Does anyone charge clients for coffee breaks or lunch breaks?

   Chris @ flairwoodworks

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

3. 
   integrity_woodworks | Feb 25, 2008 07:28am | #3

   whats your skill level? do you do woodwork for a living? I do custume work only/which means I try to get into the clinents head and if I ,m able to do that then they will get what they are looking for. so how I usually work it is they cover all material ,then it is 35$ to 65$ an hour depending on what is envoled (some of my machines are very expensive to run &so duties reqiure another set of hands) .so what I do is a rough calcalation of time and other cost which enables me to give the clinent a ROUGH cost amount, then split that into 3 payments /deposit /after asemblly/final payment including any extras ,or some times they pay less then exspected for the finial payment.  The most important things I have learned in the last 25 or so years are #1 never take a job just because it,s a job(you must make money) #2 every job should buy something for the shop( shaper cutters /planner knifes/ new hand plane).

   I always tell my clients - if you have the imagination& the wallet it can be built/ this does not mean all my projects are exspensive ,just that qauilty cost ,but is cheaper then having to do it every couple of years. I don ,t know if this helps any?

   the Woodbug Dan

4. 
   [email protected] | Feb 25, 2008 08:55am | #4

   You miss phrased the question.  What is your time worth?  Back when I was in school, I was taught that the value of something is the price a willing seller will deliver it to a willing buyer for.  The trick is figuring out where you are a readily willing seller, and they are still willing buyers.  But if you have to undervalue yourself to get willing buyers, and you become an unwilling seller it is time to quit. 

   You need to know how much your time is worth.  Figure out how much you would expect to make if you were working for some one else doing what you do. 

   Then, double that, (at least).  To get the real multiplier you need to figure in:

   Your fixed costs,  rent, and utilities, the truck payment, monthly depreciation of large equipment, Book keeping costs.  These things don't change whether you are working or not.

   Production expenses such as, the cost of replacement tooling, and tool maintenence.  Materials, and not the wood and finish that goes into the project, (you calculate that directly for each estimate), but bench supplies such as glue, and sand paper, and whatever other things you normally use during production. 

   And you need to include your time that isn't directly billable, such as estimating, running to the bank, preliminary design time, as part ot the proposal you don't get commisioned for, and all the rest of the things you do to get and keep work, that aren't directly related to a specific project that you actually get commisioned for.   

   Basicly if you want to gross $50,000 a year before personal taxes, you need to average about $25/hr, plus your costs. 

   From all this you figure your hourly billing rate. 

5. 
   rsaunders | Feb 25, 2008 10:18am | #5

   In the PCNW I shoot for 125/hr. This covers time and tool maintenance , tool acquisition.
   Plus a reasonable wage.However you had better be pretty efficient and competent to ask for that.

   
   

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   Edited 2/25/2008 2:19 am by rsaunders

6. 
   jvk | Feb 25, 2008 12:58pm | #6

   In the Home Improvement industry we have programs for estimating.  There I found I made a lot more per hour than I used to charge.  Because I'm fast & efficient I'd average about $100/hr.  When I do cabinets/furniture I end up w/ about $25 where I'm much slower.  My point is it's dependent on your speed & efficiency.  Unfortunately I can't find any kind of program listing time/ cost for cabinetry.

   trimjim
7. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 27, 2008 03:37am | #7

   You might find my article Estimating for Furniture Makers: is the price right? useful. It was in Woodwork published in California, Issue 102, Dec. 2006. You might be able to get a back issue.

   The article doesn't tell you what your labour rate should be; only you can work that out based on a variety of factors. It does offer a method for estimating your time, and there are notes on how you might mark up and charge for materials. Slainte.

   Richard Jones Furniture

   
   

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   Edited 2/27/2008 3:28 am by SgianDubh

1. 
   creekwood | Feb 27, 2008 03:54am | #8

   Thats the article I was going to direct him to. I've already thanked you for that writing, as it may be the most beneficial article I've read in any ww publication.

   Relayer, that read is quality time well spent.

   Jerry

1. 
   SgianDubh | Feb 27, 2008 11:36am | #11

   Jerry, I don't recall your earlier thanks, even though I'm sure you're right about proffering them; there's been a lot of water pass under the bridge in the time since it was published.

   I'm still getting requests for a copy of the original manuscript, which I think is remarkable. For a small voluntary fee I email a PDF version to those that ask for it.

   I'm pleased you found it useful and hope you'll continue to find it so. Slainte. 

   Richard Jones Furniture

   Edited 2/27/2008 5:48 am by SgianDubh

8. 
   troys | Feb 27, 2008 09:03am | #9

   If your good don't sell your self short, be sure to charge enough to cover all of your overhead, equipment cost and maintance, insurance, retirement, enough to pay your self a middle class income ect. The biggest mistake people in any of the arts and/or crafts do is to short change themselves because they love what they do. If you are not doing this for a living you might take a different approach. And remember there are a lot of people who don't blink an eye at spending a ton of money on things that don't last but will whine and complain about paying for a quality product that will out last them. Anyway enough of that lecture and good luck

   Troy

9. 
   oldusty | Feb 27, 2008 09:49am | #10

     There is not one answer  to this question , your location has much to do with the prevailing wage in any given field .

           Take an auto mechanic for example , they may bill at $72 an hour the plumber may bill similarly and also the electrician . Each is a specialty field and requires it's own set of skills .

       Now do you think the electrician or your Dentist or plumber could build a custom kitchen or do any other wood work  we do for a living ? Most of them can not , just as we can not wire or plumb a job proficiently .

     Shouldn't we earn the same as a plumber mechanic or other sub who does not have the skills to do our job ?

        check the going rate in your area , I don't work by the hour , rather I bid the job , when I'm done the price has already been accepted whether I was fast or slow .

                dusty , the underpaid

1. 
   zolton | Feb 29, 2008 04:34am | #16

   Old D,

   For the most part, I do agree with you. If you're skilled enough, you can (and should) charge enough to make a decent living - comparable to what others in their professions charge, and taking into consideration your market. 

   I'd like to pick a nit with comparing woodworking to dentistry though. If I've got a toothache, I can't go down to Home Depot to get it fixed for substantially less money. 

   Someone in need of a cabinet can, however. And that's what some people base their price information on. If I never hear another potential customer say, "But they're only $49.95 down at Home Depot!" it'll be soon enough for me.

   I've kind of lost my point here. But, anyway, that's what I think... Zolton * Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.

1. 
   oldusty | Mar 01, 2008 04:47am | #18

    Hi Zolton ,

                I did not compare wood working with Dentistry really , I was trying to establish the fact that skilled workers can do things that my the Dentist can't neither can most Doctors or Brain surgeons for that matter . Those folks charge many hundred or thousands of dollars more per day than any plain old lowly wwer , yet they could not do the tasks that we may do on a daily basis .

       If you have a tooth ache imo don't go to a cabinet maker and if you need some wood work also imo don't go to the Surgery center , sure it makes sense .

     Every tool the plumber or electrician owns is most likely in his truck or van where we wwers have a shop full of equipment and are stabbing each other in the back to earn about 1/2 the wages of the plumber or Sparky .

       It really has to do with the demand for certain subs in your area .

               dusty, still under paid in a down market

10. 
    jackplane | Feb 28, 2008 07:43am | #12

    Read a few books on this, like JLC's Estimating for Small Business, and others.

    It's helpful to start from the back- look at what salary you want from year's end, set your wage to that. 25$/ hr only for work done on bid jobs will not at all yield 50,000$ per year. As you may know-I don't know your skill level or experience, but much time is spent not on jobs but everything else to make business run smoothly. Many factors go into a bid, not just time and materials.

    Expert since 10 am.

11. 
    9michael9 | Feb 28, 2008 02:54pm | #13

    I think you should make a little more than the guys that pick up your trash, but not as much as your wife.  Hope this helps.

    ~~Mike

1. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 28, 2008 06:49pm | #14

   A one-man woodworking studio breaking each process down into excruciating detail applying charge rates for each of the processes, etc. and arriving at a quote makes no sense to me at all. And I was a CPA in a former life. This is akin to an artist coming up with a different charge rate for each color of the palette and for each technique that might be brought to bear in applying paint to canvas. If I knife this color on, should I charge differently than if I brushed it on? It turns artistic value into an exercise in cost accounting. Far too many craftsmen, IMO, appear to be frustrated factory foremen. These techniques have their place but small, custom furniture making is probably not it.There is nothing sadder than somebody coming up with an absolutely stunning design, something really inspired, and then proceeding to build it at the same 'hourly rate' as a lousy built-in job. Where's the art in this?Most guys attempting to implement what amounts to a standard cost accounting system to a one-man furniture making operation leave out the most important component - accounting for and dealing with idle capacity variances. Computing standard costs in cost accounting starts with the assumption of working at "full capacity" and goes on to refine that notion by computing an idle capacity variance which depends on developing a budget for production. This is absurd for guys making furniture in very small operations.Failing to understand how idle capacity affects your budgeted standard costs is a recipe for bankruptcy or booking profits well below what they could have been.I would be very, very careful in applying an overly mechanical approach to figuring how much to charge a new prospect for any particular project. You're going to make errors all over the place - you'll leave money on the table on some work and not get some jobs that you probably should have booked.For small, craft endeavors pricing is as much an art as hopefully the items that roll out of the studio.If you're making good money making custom furniture using an intricate approach to pricing, I'd say you're succeeding in spite of, not because of, your methodology.

   Edited 2/28/2008 11:38 am ET by BossCrunk

12. 
    colebearanimals | Feb 28, 2008 08:43pm | #15

    Relayer,

            We live in a disposable society. I've been doing professional woodworking for 25 years and during that time noticed the value of my time dropping steadily, even though I'm skilled at my craft. Society, in general, doesn't reward the craftsman.

            " I want it now. I don't really care how it's built because I'm changing it tomorrow anyway."

            There are a few, though, that have carved out a niche providing fine woodworking to a few discerning customers but these numbers are relatively small. Except for these professionals the future of fine woodworking is going to rest with the passionate amateur.

             Unfortunately, even in fine woodworking, you still need to be competitive. Maybe to a lesser degree than other areas of woodworking. But you still can't go charging willy-nilly. Study your market. Find out what work similar to yours is selling for and then see if you can be competitive given your overhead.

             Best of luck

    p s     "What is my time worth?"   Not much by the look of my 1040   :)

                                                                          Paul

    
    

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    Edited 2/28/2008 10:03 pm ET by colebearanimals

13. 
    GRW | Feb 29, 2008 03:44pm | #17

    Here's were I sit on the issue.

    First you need to understand that I'm a part time woodworker. I have a full time job already that pays the bills. Last year I worked about 600-700 hrs in the shop working for others. During that time I spent about 80% of my time on kitchens. The rest was custom furniture, and furniture repairs.

    My quotes are based on a breakdown of materials and man hours. Then I compare my bid to what I think the customer would pay elsewhere. In other words I guess wether I have overbid, or underbid the market based on my knowledge of the market in my area. I then adjust accordingly. Now I have a bid.

    Because I have a small one man shop, I don't yet have all the efficient tools that many larger shops have. It takes me longer to build most projects than a larger shop. I also don't have the benefit of volume material pricing a larger shop has. The net result is that in order to have competitive prices, I need a lower labor rate than the $55/hr shops. On the up side, because I have a good sized one man basement shop I don't pay workman's comp, rent, and no additional heating or phone cost.

    In order to increase my hourly rate, and still stay competitive in pricing I'm investing in tools and methods that increase my efficiency, and help me build faster without decreasing quality. Last year I invested in a small panel sander, material transport carts, and finishing spray systems. I also now buy some of my materials in larger quantity to get better prices, and spend less time on the road fetching materials. Every time I get better/faster or cheaper material prices, I earn more $$ per hour, and stay competitive in the market.