I build chairs and I use Elmers white glue.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
” If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy……..yessa!”
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I use Unibond 800 or Weldwood Plastic cement when gluing-up bent laminations in chair construction. For general assembly, it depends on how much open time I need, and whether the joinery needs to be reversible. When open time isn't a concern, I use yellow glue; when I need a bit more time I use white or two-part epoxy; when reversibility is an issue I use hide glue.
Have fun!
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I recently had a rather catastrophic glue failure. I used Franklin's cold hide glue to put together a bible stand/ lectern for church. The roof leaked and the piece got soaked. I had to take the entire thing apart and reglue almost all the joints. Maybe not the glue's fault. Still I doubt I'll try the cold stuf again.
Edited 3/16/2005 8:28 pm ET by BISCARDI
The good news with hide glue is that you can take things apart. Poly glue, elmers forget it. Once they are together your done...I've never used hide glue but I've read about it. Aren't there some tricks to making it work right? (Seem to remember an old FWW article about hide glues).Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I've never used hide glue but I've read about it. Aren't there some tricks to making it work right?..
OH.. I know this is a really old post BUT! .... some tricks to making it work right?
Geeeeee It works wonders.. Many things out there 200 years or so PLUS still holding together.. Well, INSIDE the house..
If you had used Titebond 3 it would still be ok.
I have just made a outside gate ,a replica of the panelled front door and used it,Titebond crowd say it's ok so,fingers crossed.
Hide glue, whether hot or cold, is very susceptable to water failure. If you want a more permanent adhesive, use a TypeII PVA (yellow glue).Howie.........
The very reason it failed is the reason luthiers use it. Steaming the violin apart is how it is repaired. I love "real" hide glue for hammer veneering and rub joints, but water-proof it is not
I use a small amount of white glue. Other than that, I use hide glue, both liquid and hot for everything.
Rob Millard
Just wondering what you are working on right now.
Right now, I'm finishing up a firescreen, and three inlaid birdseye maple sewing boxes. I'm one week into, a 4 week Seymour tall case clock.
Rob Millard
I've been using Titebond II for years on furniture and everything else. I've used it for laminations too with no creeping.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Room temp works fine for storage.
It's got about a year's shelf life, as I recall.
One of the main reasons to use hide glue is that furniture can be repaired easily, it forms a weaker bond than PVA or other glues. Typically, PVA and other glues have a joint strength higher than the wood, the wood breaks before the joint fails. Bad idea if you're repairing an antique.
You can also get hide glue in solid (pearl) form and make it up as you need it. Highland Hardware in Atlanta was where I purchased it last.
Regards,
ok 2 things here. first does any one know what the difference between white glue and yellow glue. i mean besides the colour. or 'color' if your from the U.S.
and im not trying to be a jerk, but my mother recently took in an antique chair to be reglued. about 10 years ago she had the whole set reglued. seems like using these glues so it can be repaired is like building it to fail. if her chairs had been glued with a permanant glue then they wouldnt have to be repaired again and again. so why use these glues?
cheers.Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
The origninal PVA adhesive was white. Woodworkers objected to its long open time and relatively low tack. The manufacturer addressed these issues by shortening the open time and increasing the tack. To differentiate it from the original product, they added a yellow dye. Both are similar in strength. So white and yellow indoor PVA adhesives are similar except the white has about double the open time of the yellow. The white is an excellent choice if you want a longer open time for complex assemblies.The next step in the development of PVA adhesive was to make it from cross linking polymers. What this means is the it was no longer susceptable to moisture. Hence the exterior TypeII adhesives like Titebond II.Howie.........
Anyone have comments on how the glue affects the skin, fingers and area at nails? Use here mainly Titebond II and have tried in a limitted way small amounts of other yellow variations and brands. Have not used white glue but would change to white glue if it is known to be less agressive than yellow Titebond II, or might switch to plain Titebond.Might brands matter in this respect?-mbl-
Titebond 11 and 111 have no affect on the skin.Gorilla and structan should not touch skin.
> Titebond 11 and 111 have no affect on the skin.
Very true. When I get one of those tiny slivers, the ones you can feel but can't see, I apply Titebond to the area like an ointment, and glue a scrap of paper to my skin. Give it 20 - 30 minutes, peel it off, and it pulls the splinter. If my hands are at all oily, washing first makes sure that the glue grabs the splinter. If one try doesn't work, I do it again, but peel in the opposite direction. So far, it's never failed.
-- J.S.
You remind me of Desperate Dan of my youth,he used to pull the hairs off his chin and use them as nails.
Dude!
I haffta try this! Sometimes I get slivers that just won't come out. How many bars
would you have to drink in to get a tip like that??
Thanks,
silver sliver
Titebond 2 or 3???
I've done it with Titebond 1 and 2, haven't tried 3, but I'm sure it would work at least as well. This is for the tiny ones that you can't even see with a magnifying glass. If you can see it and grab it with tweezers, that's the way to go. If not, use the glue trick.
Even the microscopic ones have some direction to them, so it does matter which way you pull. That's why if you guess wrong, you have to do it again the opposite direction.
-- J.S.
Amazing. I'm selling this to someone.
silver
You would only use titebond 3 if it's raining.(It's waterproof.)
"and im not trying to be a jerk, but my mother recently took in an antique chair to be reglued. about 10 years ago she had the whole set reglued. seems like using these glues so it can be repaired is like building it to fail. if her chairs had been glued with a permanant glue then they wouldnt have to be repaired again and again. so why use these glues?"tmaxxx,I agree with Howie's comments re: the differencs between white and yellow PVA glues; additionally, I believe white may have a longer shelf life than its yellow cousin.I infer a little confusion from your post: if your mother's chair was, indeed, an "antique" it is highly doubtful PVA glues were in existence when it was constructed - hide glue was widely used because it was the only game in town until modern glues came along. If hide glue was used originally, it has an additional advantage because hide glue will stick to itself; the repairman would have had to disassemble all or part of the chair and remove the old glue before he could reassemble it using modern glue - the hours and craftsmanship involved can make these kinds of repairs seem too expensive.Chairs are difficult to assemble using glue alone: proper joinery is critical. There is a possibility that your mother's antique chair wasn't built with top-notch joinery (just because it's old, doesn't mean it was well-built to begin with), or that the joinery has been abused over the years (e.g., when people lean back in a chair it punishes the joints unmercifully), in which case glue alone is unlikely to provide anything but a temporary solution.There aren't that many chairs that the average consumer is willing to pay contemporary prices to repair properly - and no matter what the advertisements for miracle glues may claim, glue alone will not hold a poorly constructed or damaged chair together permanently.Why do we continue to use hide glue when modern adhesives are available? Hide glue continues to be used by modern craftsmen when reversibility is an important factor, as with pricey antiques or violins; when its virtues outweigh its vices; and when using traditional methods and materials are favored.
Hope this is the kind of info you were seeking,-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
The other folks got the differences already -- beat me to it.The reason I use hide glues on joints that are likely to fail is that the glue will fail instead of the wood itself.It's easier to clean out a mortise of glue residue, clean up the tenon and reglue than to bore out a mortise of a failed tenon, re-cut or re-turn a stretcher or apron, hoping you can come even close to the original.90° or close to that joints are setups for failure just from the physics of the stresses involved.Think about how many close-to-perpendicular joints you've seen fail as opposed to how many Windsor-style joints that fail. From what I've seen, most of the Windsor joints that fail do so due to the age of the glue, the others I've seen fail are due to the joints being stressed by a teenager (mine) rocking the effing chair that's older than I am back on it's rear legs. (We had words. Quite a few of them.)YMMV.Leon Jester
ok. sorry but i still dont think my question was quite understood. you use hide glue so when the joint fails, its easier to repair. but the hide glue seems to be the reason it failed. its not a permanent bond. using something like yellow glue makes a permanent bond therfore it should never fail and never need repair. i think of all the things made using yellow glue and they never need repair, so why not on chairs? or are you intentionally creating a weak link to save the wood from breaking?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
or are you intentionally creating a weak link to save the wood from breaking?
**********Yes. Joints can be repaired, wood has to be re-worked or replaced. Matching wood on an old piece can be difficult.The physics of a chair joint under stress will lead to it's eventual failure, the question is whether or not you'll have to repair the joint or the joint and it's components.FWIW, I use Gorilla or similar glues for joining flat tabletops and shelves made of multiple boards.Regards,Leon Jester
It's possible that whoever repaired your mother's chair used something other than hide glue, and didn't clean out the joints very well. One of the virtues of hide glue is that new added to an existing joint bonds with the old hide glue. A PVA glue wouldn't bond well if the old hide glue hadn't been cleaned out.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I worked in the furniture industry for 20 years and two of the well known Companies used Franklin tite bond II, and I also use it , (Baker and Kindel Furniture, Both of Grand Rapids, MI ) self employed now and still use Franklin tite bond. I tried Gorilla glue with NOT very good results. All the things I built came apart in less than 3 to 4 months. I used it according to directions, and used it in various applications.
I also repair a lot of antique chairs and other things and still use tite bond II. As of customer complaints , I have never had one , of anything coming apart.
Furniture By Douglas,, Building furniture to become Heirlooms Grand Rapids, MI
i have been useing West Sytem 2 part epoxy recently. i swear by this stuff! it has no creap, gap filling, waterproof and its great for complicated glue-ups. open time can be up to 30 min. It works great for veneer because there is no water in it and you only need a very, very small film so you won't have the problems that you may have with pva or hide glue. hands down the best glue for bent laminations. once cured the stuff is stuctural so there is less spring back. the down side is the price. it will cost more than $100 dollars to get set up. and the clamping time is at least 8 hours with the fast hardner...
yep pricey but it is the best, add some micro balloons and some cavasil(sp?) for strength it will never fail. keep your acetone handy.
Down here in the southwest of Australia, West System 2 part epoxy is probably the most popular adhesive used by the big name specialty funiture makers / galleries. I've been woodworking full time for about 5 years and also swear by West System. It gives me 30-40 minutes of open time (with the slow hardnener), which is comforting when it's a big or complicated job. I can add colouring oxides to create a glue that is close to identical to the wood colour. Which can help in structural joins if they're not "perfect". Also, as Lee says, it's gap filling and damn indestructible once it's gone off. Which invariably involves an overnight clamp. Joining mutiple boards for a table top requires using only a very thin film on BOTH surfaces. Otherwise you'll get a visible glue line.If I need a quick but trustworthy glue job, usually a small panel (door or shelf panel), I use yellow glue. Titebond is not common down here, that I'm aware of. Assume this is a modified PVA?
All about Titebond.
They are the main supplier of aliphatic glue in NZ.
I use West Sytem on outside furiture.
http://titebond.com/DefaultTB.htm
Cicero, thanks for the link. I made enquiries and there is a local importer, although it's fairly expensive. I've been using "Yellow Glue" from a local woodworking supply shop. Aliphatic resin. I assume it has similar characteristics to Titebond 11.
I pay NZ$52..76 for 4 lts'
Titebond II is a partial waterproof glue,III is even more waterproof.
III I am told I can use for outdoor furn.
Lee0, and anyone else familiar with West System Epoxy..... and gluing in general... I'd appreciate your feedback on "visible glue lines" and glue "ridges".I use West System with the microfibre thickener. It produces great structural joins (gap filling, etc), but when gluing boards for panels or table tops, or making doors, there is a thin, but still noticable glue line. I've learned to use coloring oxides to generate a glue mix that is very close to the wood color, so that the glue line is less obvious. (This works well in darker timber, our Jarrah, but not so well in lighter timber). I'm wondering if either I should be using little or no thickening agent for the non structural joins, or if I'm maybe putting too much glue onto the joins? I have been buttering up both surfaces to be joined. Also, I've noticed that it only requires a very thin film of glue. So after brushing the glue on, I go back and try to wipe any excess off with a spatula. The thinner the film, the less the glue line. But am I still leaving too much glue if there is a glue line at all?? (I've noticed I get no glue lines when I use aliphatic resins / yellow glue - so I tend to go this route for small jobs like cabinet door panels)None of the West System glue jobs have ever failed or ridged on me. However, SOME yellow glue and PVA white glue joins have, after 5 years, either opened a little or developed a noticable "ridge" - (mainly with the white PVA's). What causes this? Apologies for being long winded!
i hardley ever use the micro fiber unless i know that there are large gaps to fill. ie if i butt two pieces of end grain together i use a threaded steal rod and the epoxy w/ the micro fiber to really grab the threads (i know end grain to end grain... i tried very hard to break a joint glued this way and i dare ya to try! <G>) works great for 2 different types of wood when you want a contrast. i used to use way too much epoxy and had the same problems. my boss then politely told me that i am a moron and wiped it all off and then put the clamps back. thinking the joints would fall apart much to my surprise it did not fall apart. i figured out after that you only need a very small film on one side, say the tenon, and your good to go. as long as your joints are tight...hihi other then that you should have the same line you would have using any other glue none. i only use it for really complicated glue-ups because of its long open time or it will be exposed to the elements or for bent laminations. epoxy has to stay in clamps way too long. hope that helps and sorry for the late response!
Thanks Leeo, that's very helpful. I'll definitely cut back on the amount i paste on. Two more queries.... . Someone (actually, everyone) who's advised me about WestSystem has stressed I need to coat BOTH surfaces to be glued. Something about getting the stuff to begin reacting with the wood prior to clamping. Maybe an urban myth? . If you only use West System in the situations you mentioned, what do you use in "normal" circumstances? (What kind of woodworking shop do you work in?)Thanks again,Richard
hey richard, sorry for the late response... i don't check back here very often because of lack off time. <G> in "normal" situations i use titebond or titebond III. titebond III is great for dark woods and it has a longer open time. i have not heard about anything specific about putting West System on both sides. there is a very good chance that i am wrong, often am, but i have never had a problem with only putting it on one side of the joint. it does go on kinda' thick and takes 8 hours to set so i would think that it has plenty of time to react? now that i think about it if i use it for veneering then i do put it on both sides. but VERY thin coats with a thin nap roller.i work in a custom furniture shop. it's a small shop only 2 people myself included. we build mainly federal style but also stuff for designers. those objects tend to be very modern. we just built a scroll table that used about 4 totally differnt adhesives. if i can find a picture i will post it. it's not my taste but neat...best regards
Lee
I've used Tite-Bond III for bonding pine-pine faces together with good success. I used Gorilla glue for gluing maple pieces that composed a benchtop ~ 6 yrs. ago - no separation yet (feels dry).
dave
So do I .Ive used it on oak alot and havent had one problem.
I've been woodworking several years full time, and have always used Titebond (original) for most of my glueing needs. If it needs to been weatherproof, for cutting boards, birdhouses for outdoors, etc. I always used Titebond II. This past winter I thought I would try Titebond III because of its lower temperature rating (because of the cooler temps in my shop in the winter), and its longer open time. It proved to be all it claimed to be.
The best testimony I can give to their glue is I have never had to replace a piece of furniture because of glue failure!
ok, next glue question. my cheapass cutting vboard just came apart (no i didnt make it) would yellow glue or gorilla glue be ok or is there something i should use because its used for food and gets washed in water?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
dried corn flakes and milk make a pretty good glue! :) I can attest to that whenever the wife is gone for a while.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Simple -- Highlight, copy, and paste.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
What Andy said....
Only if you're as computer illiterate as me... let me share what I've found works for me...
Highlight the parts of the thread you want to save. Go to "Edit" / Copy. Then open a new Word File or whatever you use for wordprocessing. And go "Edit" / Paste. Then save that document.
Sorry if this was insultingly simple. I'm fairly hopeless on computers and get a buzz every time I successfully save a document!
Richard
I am bit backward from you.
I use Titebond 2 or 3 for cabientry and hide glue for chairs - easier to repair WHEN the joint fails.
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