What machine is the most dangerous ?
oldusty
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hello to all ,
In another thread on shapers and such , a statement was made something to the effect that the shaper is the most dangerous machine in the shop .
I’d like your opinions on what you feel is the most dangerous . I would think the replies would be based on injuries received as opposed to the probable dangers that may exist .
Which machines have caused injuries to you ? Was it user error or what ? Could it have been avoided ?
dusty
Still got all 10
Replies
good question.
IMHO, my vote would have to go to the tablesaw. almost everybody i know who uses a tablesaw on a regular basis has a scar or two to show for it. i have seen kickbacks and near amputations (my dad cut his finger 90% off in front of me when i was 8, but amazingly i still wanted to work with a tablesaw) and more near misses than i care to count. if i had to pick a second most damgerous, i would have to say shaper, because from what i have seen in the shop i work in is that people know enough to be cautious around a tablesaw, but thay seem to think a shaper is harmless. while i have yet to see a bad shaper accident, the many i have prevented would have been horrific.
I have 3 5hp shapers and they don't worry me near as much as the tablesaw, two have power feeders that preclude getting digits anywhere near the cutter the third has guards that do the same. I have been burned numerous times on the inflateable drum sanders and while painful and taking an inordinate time to heal I was never in danger of losing a body part or serious blunt trauma injury ( I include the edge sander in this category also).
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
i too have power feeders on my shapers at work (couldn't imagine working without them). most potential accidents i have seen involve people deciding that since they are just passing a couple of pieces they won't bother setting up the feeder. i usually stop them before they can pass a piece by hand. guards were removed long ago to make room for the feeders
dgreen ,
Thanks for the reply , I have 5 shapers set up and use them all , Have never had an injury on a shaper . I have a profile / edge sander that has got me numerous times when sanding a too small piece .
The TS has whacked me a few times also in the last 30 years .
The RAS has offered up a few scary episodes as well .
dusty
Dusty,
I would be interested to hear statistics about workplace accidents and which machines were involved; I'm sure OSHA or someone else actually has such statistics. If I had to guess I would say that kickback on the TS is probably way up there in the standings. People don't use RAS that much anymore so I doubt that statistically it would show, but it's also a machine fraught with hazards.
Personally I've been "bitten" twice: I ran the fingertips of my left hand over the jointer, and took off the end of my pinky with a biscuit jointer. Both accidents were, of course, due to the fact that I was dreaming instead of paying attention. Our shop also had a fairly serious injury with a router table - one of the workers fed the wood in the wrong direction and paid for it.
DR
still got 7 good ones, 2 shortened and mangled, 1 re-wired
Hello David ,
Thanks for your time to reply . Sounds like you have had episodes with all but shapers . In reality any machine large or small regardless of power can cause injuries when the wrong combination and timing occur .
Dreaming can be scary when done while machining , I know !
dusty
Glad to hear I am not the only one to have been "bitten" by a biscuit joiner. I have an old Skil that has no friction face or pins to prevent it from shifting sideways as you plunge it into the wood. I was putting maple edging on some plywood speaker boxes for my son. I started out OK, I was cutting the slots in a long piece of 3/4 by 3/4 maple and then cutting the piece to length. This kept my hand away from the cutter. Unfortunately, I was cutting slots of the wrong depth for the biscuits I wanted to use. By the time I figured that out, I did not have enough maple to start over. Instead of just going to the store and buying another piece, I decided to recut the slots in the now little pieces. It worked for the first few and then the blade grabbed and shifted my left little finger and ring finger into the blade. I still have both but the tip of the little finger has very little feeling. I had a bunch of stiches to put things back together. I knew it was stupid when I did it. Wonder how many others would say the same.
I've been doing this for about 30 years now so one injury is probably not terrible but it was one more than was necessary.
Jim
Jim,
The details of my accident with a biscuit joiner are almost identical to yours. It severed the top of my pinky, but the doctors re-attached it. I am grateful for that, although I have no sensation above the last joint. I've also been WWing for a very long time, and at some point or another we all dream while working, even those who believe that they are very attentive. Sometimes the price for that daydreaming is a high one.
Thanks for writing,
DR
The spindle moulder (US shaper) almost certainly has the reputation as the most likely machine to cause injury. However, statistics in the US (and probably the UK where I am) indicate that the largest number of injuries occur whilst using the table saw. I'm being lazy here and not rooting out the statistics but, if someone does some looking about for those statistics I'm pretty sure my assertions will be confirmed.
Most likely the reason for the table saw being top of the list is because just about every woodworking set-up, amateur or professional, has a table saw. A spindle moulder is a rare tool in amateur workshops and not all woodworking businesses have one.
The frequency of use of machine types has an influence on injury statistics. If you couple the frequency of use of table saws along with the lackadaisical attitude to safety that some users employ (particularly in the US where guards are seldom used and the long rip fence is de rigeur) it would be no surprise to me to find table saws at the top of the list for injuries.
The spindle moulder still has the reputation as being the most fearsome machine in the workshop. This reputation goes back a long way and is coupled with the type of cutter setup and method of use that used to be employed and is now history.
If anyone has ever seen a spindle moulder setup using a square head cutter block and a 'dumpling' to create a false raised table along with a ring fence to free hand shape compound curved parts like stair hand rails off a pattern then they'll know just how scary the operation appears and actually is. The noise alone from a square head cutter block starting up and reaching operating speed is enough to loosen the bowels of most observers let alone actually using one-- spinning square head cutterblocks sound like there's a demented, red eyed, howling banshee let loose in the building.
This kind of operation along with square head cutter blocks is long gone thankfully. Safety blocks with limiters are now the norm but, spindle moulders still offer the potential for serious injury particularly when shaping curved parts using patterns and jigs; operations that can't usually be achieved using power feeders and require hand feeding.
One of the characteristics of square head cutter blocks when accidents occurred was their ability to suck the operators body parts into the cutters which led to the severity of injuries. Those square corners could act rather like toothed cogs if something went wrong. Old fashioned surface planers (US jointers) with square head cutter blocks had similar self feeding characteristics. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Hi Richard ,
The point I was trying to bring out was not so much that the Shaper is most likely and feared to have the ability to cause injury , rather what machines cause the most injuries .
On one of my shapers I still use collar knives , yup the loose bowel syndrome reminded me when I first turned on some huge raised panel type knives in a collar . They were not balanced right and the shaper and power feed vibrated along the floor until I could flip the switch off . I don't use those anymore .
I happen to agree about the TS being the largest contributor to injuries . Almost every wood shop has one , therefore statistically it probably gets used more often then others creating more opportunities .
Thank you for your reply
dusty
Just out of curiosity, how many or what percent of those table saw injuries were a result of no safeguard devices or had safeguard devices disabled. (e.g. blade covers, anti-kickback devices, etc)
I am particularly interested as I today am trying to figure out how to rip a piece of oak 1/2" wide and the smallest width I can get with my table saw and the cover in place is just under an inch. The thought has crossed my mind to remove the cover for this rip...
"...trying to figure out how to rip a piece of oak 1/2" wide and the smallest width I can get with my table saw and the cover in place is just under an inch." Auxillary, low-profile fence.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You can make that operation safe. Do like Forestgirls said and use a low aux fence so you can leave the cover on... or use a push stick (thin enough to squeeze through) and a hold-down (either a featherboard or wheels). Do that, and stay out of the kickback zone, and you can be very safe.
I agree that the TS causes the most injuries, for exactly the reason Richard calls out: It's dangerous enough, and used more than nearly anything. I would have the most fear of a shaper without a feeder, though some TS operations (specifically, stopped cuts) do give me pause.
My only accident was on the TS, dropping stock onto a blade... the stock flew out and my hand went down to the blade. It was definitely my own dumb mistake, not because the guard was off (the operation couldn't be done with a guard), but because there are safe ways to do it I didn't know, but proceeded anyway.
I think if we really wanted to reduce injuries, it would be great to have a safety-oriented HowTo FAQ, so newbies like me could go and read a good, safe way to do common operations. Ripping thin stock, cutting sheet goods, making throat plates, things like that.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John,
You mentioned:
"I think if we really wanted to reduce injuries, it would be great to have a safety-oriented HowTo FAQ, so newbies like me could go and read a good, safe way to do common operations. Ripping thin stock, cutting sheet goods, making throat plates, things like that".
The latest issue of Fine Home Building has an article of TS safe procedures which might serve as a start. I also seem the remember that more than one back issue of FWW has similar articles, including one demonstrating how kick back occurs, using polystyrene.
Are these articles available on line to those who pay for the extended service, Mr Syops?
Lataxe
Not trying to hijack this thread but I have an aux low-profile fence. but if the blade cover is 1" to the right of the blade (and towards the fence), it seems to me that no matter how low the low profile fence is, it ain't gonna help when the width of the rip is less than an inch. Am I missing something?
thanks.
If the low profile fence is as short as, or shorter than your stock, your guard can be left in place even on very thin rips, because it can overlap the fence.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"I think if we really wanted to reduce injuries, it would be great to have a safety-oriented HowTo FAQ, so newbies like me could go and read a good, safe way to do common operations." This would probably strike fear in the hearts of Taunton's lawyers, LOL. One good book for each tool (or a copy of De Cristoforo's "Power Tools") will go along way in education.
WWA has an approach that wouldn't replace your FAQ idea, but complements it: An "Accident Survey" in the form of a searchable database, where forum members report accidents or near-accidents. The member indicates his/her experience level with the tool, how serious the accident was, a description, and advice on how others can avoid it. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Overall, I would guess that the majority of injuries come from two hand tools -- the utility knife and the hand chisel. Following those, maybe the 3rd most potentially dangerous injury is a splinter that gets infected. Most of us worry a lot about the dangers of power tools, as well we should; but I try to keep the same mind set when I pick up a sharp hand tool that I do when I turn on the TS. Maybe 20 years ago, there was a wwing doc who did a piece for FWW on shop injuries. He reported that those new to the interest were seldom injured; most mishaps came from those who had been practicing the craft for 10-15 years.In other words, when you lose your fear of a machine, that's when you should start paying special attention to safety measures.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"Maybe 20 years ago, there was a wwing doc who did a piece for FWW on shop injuries. He reported that those new to the interest were seldom injured; most mishaps came from those who had been practicing the craft for 10-15 years.
In other words, when you lose your fear of a machine, that's when you should start paying special attention to safety measures."
Sounds familiar. When I got my private pilot's license, I mentioned to my instructor my fear of what could go wrong while I was pilot-in-command of an aircraft. He said, "right now you're the safest pilot flying. It's those guys who have 100 or so hours under their belt who start to think they can do anything that you have to worry about."
I guess I break the curve, as I had my tendon-damaging TS accident in the first couple months of owning it.
I'd posit that there is a new class of woodworkers, people who essentially have to teach themselves from books and magazines. My own injury is a direct result of not having anyone to ask how to do a particular operation safely. I suspect that people like me are going to tend to have more of those early injuries.
I'll extend your apt flight analogy -- when I was in the army I learned to fly a helicopter. At first, we'd be given one control to handle at a time; the instructor would say "you have the controls" then the student would say "I have the controls" and take control. The process reversed when the student got in trouble: The instructor would bark out "I have the controls", the student would quickly say "You have the controls" and immediately the instructor would get the aircraft under control.
Those of us awaiting our turns, watching, couldn't hear the interchange. We'd see a helicopter starting to spin, or rock, or move uncontrollably, then instantly snap to a dead perfect hover, and we'd all say "You have the controls" as we recognized the instructor's rescue. The irascible LTC instructing me was loud and distracting, but he kept me safe, and by the time I soloed, I was genuinely prepared to handle anything likely to come up during that short but amazing flight.
Beginning woodworkers used to have an experienced instructor by their side as they learned the fundamentals. As they set up a dangerous cut, the instructor would either tell them or show them how to do it right. Nowadays, many of us must "solo" well before we've learned even the basics, and I fear it's likely we'll see more novice injuries than used to be the case.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Richard & All ,
What I have found interesting is we have heard few if any injuries coming from the shaper or ( spindle moulder ) as you say across the pond .
Thinking back , I had a nasty kickback of a short stile I ran thru the shaper , it missed me but man is was moving fast , more than twice as fast than the TS kick backs .
I was cutting some sheets of Lexan for a neighbor on the TS and the off cut was a thin strip maybe 3/8" or so as it cooled it bent towards the blade and came back like a whip and got me in the left upper arm , ouch !
dusty
I whole heartedly agree that the TS is the mean one, for all the reasons mentioned. In second or third place, I would place the drill press. Perhaps I am wrong, but the drill press has a few elements that leads to its potential danger.:
1) It "seems" safe, i.e., quiet, not much flailing around.
2) Its quiet masks its power, but invites hands close to the cutting operation.
3) "I only have one hole to drill, so I won't clamp it or use the fence" ............helicopters are called "choppers".
4) Everyone has one.
5) What could go wrong?
Just a thought,
John
PS. Shapers give me the chills.
John ,
You know the drill press has all the potential to cause injuries as well as other more powerful machines , now that you bring it up , I agree .
I have a drill press dedicated to drilling pocket screw holes for face frames , it has a fish tailed bit that makes the pilot . One day my finger was a bit too close and I got skewered up the twist bit a ways . Yeeohh that was nasty .
Also have had that piece that I did not take the time to clamp down turn into a small " chopper " it happens fast .
regards dusty
Good question!
To me it's a toss up--the TS is used a lot and we can get too complacent when using a machine all the time, but my TS doesn't scare me much at all.
Routers to me are high up on the list, if not at the top. Things happen very, vary fast with these puppies. The only bad accident I've had was on the router table (a dull bit (?) turned a stopped cut into a climb cut...very bad). I also expect that there are those who will hand rout using bits designed for table use only. High speed, high torque in a tool that places your hands within a few inches of the cutting piece are what worry me the most.
Paul (got all ten, a couple just have scar tissue stripes decorating them)
Paul ,
When I apprenticed they told me the most dangerous tool in the shop was a dull one , it's true .
dusty
P,
I agree about the router. "3 kicking horse power loose in your hands" as I once heard them described.
Happily I've not been injured by a machine in 9+ years of WW but the router has always been the closest, especially when handheld. Routing curved things on the router table is also a bit hairy, if one fails to pay attention 100% of the time. I've seen a friend mangle his thumb end in this fashion. (And "mangle" is bound to be what happens if it does bite you - not much chance of sewing the pink mush back on).
Of course, I am a coward and hate pain, so the TS and anything else that can support guards, hold downs and guides has them strapped on good, at all times.
The only actual injuries I get when WWing involve:
* tripping over stuff in a crowded workshop (we British have to have tiny shops for some reason);
* getting a bruising prod in the soft, senitive parts from some intractable machine corner as you wiggle between them in the tiny shop;
* super-spelks through the hand from free but rough lumps of reclaimed timber in which fate has set a booby trap (me booby);
* sore toes from dropping same lumps on the foot after underestimating the amount of weight training necessary to enable their safe handling.
Lataxe
The most dangerous tool in the work shop is the brain but only when your not paying attention to what you are doing.
Always pay attention in the shop or get out and come back later without the distractions.
Darrin
Hey Darrin ,
Excellent point you bring up . When tired or otherwise distracted I stop using macines for the day and either leave the shop or grab a broom .
dusty
While I still have all my body parts, my one serious injury (stiches and all) was with a miter saw. It was late, I was tired, and it was a completely STUPID move on my part (and one I will never repeat!).
Years ago, I saw an article on emergency room visits that said bandsaws were the most common source (people cutting jewelry boxes in half, and giving an extra push with the thumbs when the got to the last side - lost the thumb tips supposedly).
Bob
I'm pretty sure the TS gets credit for the highest number of injuries but that's directly related to the number of people who use one, not necessarily the highest ratio of injuries per cutting operation. There are fences, push sticks and hold downs that make most operations on a TS fairly safe, but IMO tapered cuts with those flimsy $10 aftermarket jigs are pretty scary. Kick back is a higher risk than a cut from the blade.
Every tool is potentially dangerous....especially those with cutters. Knowledge and common sense are critical to safe operation. The router and shaper seem to me to have their fair share of hazardous opportunities....small pieces, large bits, etc....especially free hand. I have one router that has a switch that's easy to engage unintentially that can easily lead to an unexpected startup when plugged in.
I've heard of grinding stones disintegrating, seen stuff get whipped on a DP, had band saw blades break...the risk there is soiling your britches!
Edited 5/27/2006 2:45 pm ET by scottwood
Some ways to stay safe. Here's a tome from OSHA on woodworking hazards, right down to specific machines, with illustrations:
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/woodworking_hazards/osha3157.html
I know there's a website that also has lists of personal mistakes people made with woodworking machinery in which they lost body parts, or got scared half to death. I read it now and then just to keep perspective on paying attention ALL THE TIME. Most of the injuries on the list seemed to have taken place with a moment's inattention, or it was the last cut on a project that had dozens of repetitive cuts (and this is on all sorts of machines, from tablesaws to radial arm saws, to grinders).
Joe Bourke
A scared, respectful, power tool user - who has all his digits
I've only gotten injured once in my couple of years of amateur woodworking, and it was table saw kickback. A thin piece I was ripping shot back into my abdomen. It felt like getting hit by a bullet, and left a monstrous bruise just above my stomach.
Based on your specifics, the TS gets my vote, as I've had some painful kickbacks.
On a broader note, when one thinks that one tool is more dangerous than the others, that's when Murphy's Law takes over and presents you with a wake-up call. :)
I happen to think that chisels are very dangerous. I have a power hand planer that qualifies too, because it's so easy to turn it on by accident. One day it swallowed a non-slip pad...better that than part of me.
Tablesaws are used most so probably see the most accidents. The only fatality I am aware of occurred on a lathe. An instructor at the school I attended(before my time) mounted-up a large, unstable chunk of wood, ran it at too high a speed. The piece flew apart, caught him in the face/head and killed him. The knowledge of that occurrance gives me pause every time I chuck-up a turning.
Personally I have received most injuries from hand tools-chisels, plane irons, hammers, etc.
Be careful out there!!
-Paul
ND:
Based on what we see in the ER and occupational medicine, in the following order:
Table saw
Skilsaw, i.e., sidewinder saws
Bandsaw
Jointer
Truck lift gates and pallet jacks, forklifts
Farm machinery
Planer
Drill press (metalworking)[eye injuries]
Lathe (woodworking)[face, other, thrown workpieces]
Small printing presses (8.5x14 to 23x19)
Milling machines (metalworking, i.e., Bridgeport or similar)
after that, it seems to even out.
I'm in Roanoke, VA which has mostly light manufacturing.
Two kinds of machines are the "most dangerous".
A machine you're aren't familiar with
A machine you've used forever
No mchines are dangerous. The operators are the problems.
GHR ,
Yeah , kind of like guns
I agree !! Operator error, for the most part that is. Drill press. In my anxious haste to drill some angled holes and not taking the time to clamp down the work piece, A very sharp Saw toothed Forestner bit grabbed the wood and pulled my thumb into it. Then came the Rescue squad and off to the ERWork Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I used to strap on a supersonic fighter plane, and catapult from an aircraft carrier. In each case I reminded myself that this was the most dangerous flight I was ever going to make. I knew how yesterday's emergency turned out, but if I didn't concentrate on today's, I might not have to worry about tomorrow's.
In my little shop, I remind myself that the machine I am about to switch on is the most dangerous machine in the shop. I think about what stupid things I could do to get hurt by the machine, and try to minimize the danger.
I bought a bandsaw because resawing on the TS seemed pretty iffy. The bandsaw has my full respect when I'm using it--it won't kickback, it just wants me to push a thumb on through. The drill press, when spinning is just begging me to get near those flutes. The RAS wants me to hold the board down with a hand, just over the line. And don't get me started on sharp hand tools.
Neither the board nor the machine know that it's just one cut. (If they did, they might see this as their only chance to get even.)
The worse cut I ever got in the shop was from a very sharp chisel.
Having said that, I purchased a jointer at a "steal " of a price. I'd never used one so I went to the shop of a friend who is a professional woodworker ( I just screw around in the basement on weekends). He showed me his jointer. It was huge with a 2 inch thick steel top (like on my tablesaw). One corner had been broken off. I asked him how that happened. He said he had a power feeder bolted on there at one point. The shaper grabbed the work and broke off the edge of the table holding the feeder.
Right there I asked him if he wanted a shaper. He came and picked it up the next week. If I need something shaped I bring it to him.
Frank
The machines that "mangle" scare me more than the machines that "cut". You can (usually) reattach a severed finger that went through a table saw or a band saw. There isn't much you can do with a hand that went down on a jointer blade or a finger that caught in a spinning router bit.
The most serious injury I've had was from a chisel. Fortunately I had just sharpened it and the cut was clean and straight right through my finger. Very easy to stitch up! Unfortunately, the feeling is still gone from the tip of that finger. On the bright side, if I put that same tip through my table saw I'll never feel it!
I'm familiar with the basic use of hand tools (chisels, planes etc.) but never used them myself. For those of you mentioning hand tools as a common cause of injury, I'm curious as to how your hand or other body part gets in the way of a tool that you are (I assume) pushing or striking from behind. Obviously I'm not a woodworker but was considering buying some basic hand tools and was wondering if you have some tips to avoid injuries.
Thanks
Joe
Without question, the radial arm saw in the most dangerous tool I have ever used. The table saw is also high on my list of dangerous tools, so high in fact that I rarely use it.
I've been fortunate, that in 25 years of working with wood, I haven't been seriously hurt with power tools but I have come close; I felt the the blade of a table saw graze my thumb with what I thought was a rabbetting cut, and a router bit removed a bit of my fingernail. The only serious cut I had was from a sharp chisel, and being the ultimate do it yourselfer, I stitched it up myself.
Rob Millard
I've gotten stitches from the tablesaw and nipped the ends of my two fingers with a portable power planner in my almost 30 years as a carpenter. The tablesaw is probably my vote, but that mostly comes from folks not knowing the potential dangers and how to use it properly.
I would venture to say that 90% or so of injuries from power tools come from the operater not paying attention, mostly from a rushed situation or a tired mind. Shut the damned thing off and call it a day.
Every time I turn on that router, tablesaw, circular saw...whatever, I put all my concentration on what is happening with the material, the spinning blade, and the actual physics of the forces at work.
There's a pretty good article in this months Fine Homebuilding on the tablesaw by Gary Katz. He show the 'danger zone' for getting the hand near the blade.
Oddly enough, my worse injuries came from a matt knife and yes, not paying attention to 'the forces'.
I got a big splinter under my cuticle last year . After some tweezer work I forgot it. Two nights later I wake to a throbbing finger. By mid afternoon I call my doctor to find what was missed. My finger was huge. He got the missed piece and we talked about shop safety. He tells me that during a two year stint working a Chicago ER by far the most common woodworking injuries were to the eyes.It seems that woodworkers don't use enough eye protection.
The most dangerous machine is the one that is being used by a guy that doesn't have a clue on how to operate it.
Apologies to anyone that has already said something like this, I saw the thread title and immediately replied without reading the whole thread.
So many have mentioned the RAS. I have used my RAS for about forty five years. I only use it for cross cutting. (In my opinion, the RAS should not be used for ripping.) I never get my hand within six inches of the blade and don't see the danger. What am I missing?
Apparently you are missing nothing (fingers that is). I had a c.1950 Delta RAS and it was a heavy duty machine, but would never hold an adjustment, no matter how much I tried to tune it. Even with a negative rake blade it had a disconcerting tendency to want to climb in the cut ( I spent more on blades trying to find one that worked, than I did on the saw itself).
I purchased it to do carpentry type work, and at this it was okay, since the required precision was low, and the woods soft. When I made the transition to cabinetmaking, and wanted to use for miters and precise cuts, in hardwood, it just didn't make the grade. I would have been willing to put up with some danger, if the machine was up to the task, but it wasn't.
Others find the shaper dangerous, but I don't, so it is an individual thing.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Hi tinkerer2 ,
I also still use the RAS in everyday operations. I originally mentioned the RAS was scary . I think improper use or just inexperienced users creates the danger . Either the wrong rate of feed or the wrong blade or a combination causes the saw to lurch towards you and also have you ever had a piece of stock get jammed up ?
Maybe under powered models contribute to this . Mine is a 12" older Rockwell , I use 10" 80 tooth negative rake blades for most cutting . I cross cut to about 16" in veneer cabinet ends and solid stock for face and door stock . I think once my saw stalled on a piece of 8/4 Alder that bound it up .
Interesting is what most folks are saying the RAS is not used much any more , hmm !I have a chop saw and a compound slider but the power of my RAS is unmatched for regular cuts .
Even more scary are what were called swing saws , now those were a pivoting hand eating accident waiting to happen . I guess the newer version used in modern production shops is the jump saw , where the blade is under the table and comes up to make the cut , safer and often foot actuated .
dusty
Hello,
To the question of most injuries from a radial arm saw, I don't rember the details because I haven't considered using one since the late seventies and I am sure the figures have changed but the answer is because SEARS sold so many to inexperienced users. I also remember (or I made it up) an article in Fine WW about cutting circles with one.
Later, Greg
notdusty,
Hands down it's the tablesaw!
Kick backs and amputations because the darn thing is a ripping machine!
Ya take the guards off to use a dado and forget to put it back on as I did when a tiny little piece flew back and broke my arm in two places.. ( 2"x1/4"x 3 inch)
You remove the guard for most jigs and sleds. and again forget to replace it. You abuse the blade by trying to carve cove moldings on it instead of using the shaper..
With the shaper I alweays use the anti kick back stuff!
They are all safe till you forget they're NOT!!
My vote for the most dangerous tool in the shop will be for tablesaw. It is in almost every shop, amatuer and professional, and generally without a blade guard or splitter. It is amazing to me that manufacturers are allowed to sell these tools with such junk for guards that almost everyone gets rid of it after struggling with the damn thing a few times. And yet OSHA looks the other way.
Hi BigK ,
It seems as though the general consensus agrees the TS is # 1 for most injuries . I'm not so sure that means it is the most dangerous , just the most injuries .
As far as OSHA chiming in , it is my understanding that they have no jurisdiction in a shop with no employees . As far as them dictating to manufacturers what must be included on machinery is an unknown to me .
dusty
Dusty,
While I cannot quote the law, I do know that manufacturers are required to provide adequate guards for cutters on their machinery. Therein lies the rub, at least on tablesaws the guards appear to be adaquate(?). Yet you, I, and everyone else but OSHA is aware of how poorly built or designed the stock guards truly are.
Whene I first bought my first tablesaw, a benchtop style Craftsman, I tried to use that guard until sheer frustation and the need to get some paying work done took over and neccessitated the removal of the offending piece of junk.
Years later when I bought a new Unisaw I niavely thought that the guard would work better. After spending copious amounts of time readjusting that slightly heavier but similar piece of junk it to was added to the trash in favor of actually being safer withou it hanging up cuts in progress.
I have since stuck an index finger into the blade one morning (still have the finger and full use but reduced sensations as a reminder) I have added an overarm guard that I use as much as possible. I have spoken with Delta to ask why don't they offer the unisaw with an overarm guard package. They are to worried about the price point and remaining competitive, are not even interested in being an industry leader in user safety. They (Delta's engineers) really don't think that there is a problem with the stock guard, but with people who won't take the time to proprely install/adjust it.
Go figure.
Mark
Delta's position makes sense. They sell the Uniguard now, and the fact that it's not a "package" isn't much of an impediment to folks who want to set it up that way. The cost savings of omitting the stock guard would probably be less than the extra cost of multiplying the number of SKU's their retailers would have to carry. 3 HP, 5 HP, left tilt, right tilt, then multiply it all times stock guard or Uniguard.
I use the stock guard on it religiously, and careful adjustment means it doesn't hang stock up. Just two days ago it probably prevented a minor accident for me, as I carelessly let the end of a board swing over the spinning saw, hitting the guard instead of the blade.
When I have the $$ I will buy a nice overarm guard, and an aftermarket splitter. Meantime, I'll make best use of what I've got.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
FYI, the overarm guard comes with a pretty nice splitter. It can be installed or removed pretty easily. When I went to the overarm setup, I to thought that the Biesemeyer splitter would be an improvement. However because the body on that beast is 1/8" thick it must be perfectly aligned with a full-kerf blade to work smoothly. Any blade under full-kerf just will not work. The Delta splitter is more than adequate for the job. Best of luck.
Mark
I'd say that the tablesaw ranks first, followed by the bandsaw. Apart from amputations, kickback on tablesaws can cause incredible internal damage without even drawing blood. The mathematics are easy, frequency of use increases risk and the tablesaw and bandsaw are used by many people regularly.
The devices avbailable on most production saws just contribute to the problem because many people remove them due to incorrect set-up or just plain poor design. Then they omit to install replacement splitters and shields. Bandsaws are even worse.
Red
Finally ... something I have experience with ;-) My vote goes to the table saw since it now owns the end of my left thumb!
I was being very careful but when a board in the shop fell towards me, it caused me to flinch, AFTER the cut was finished. Coming up on my 1 year anniversary and it still hurts. BTW the guard was not on and yes ... had it been on it would have prevented the accident!
Steve
My vote on the most dangerous tool would be TS. We all use it frequently and frequent use create bad habits. "I did it this way a thousand times, why should it go wrong now". Next in line is the bandsaw. You keep your hands close to the blade, oftentimes working with small pieces, and the machine does not "feel" dangerous.
I lost part of my finger on a TS, not paying attention when feeding a board. They were able to reconnect the cut part but my finger looks pretty mangled.
I did replace my tablesaw with a Sawstop. I have not tripped the brake yet and don't intend to test the system but it is good to know that it is there.
Some years ago I was doing some work for a reconstructive surgeon. He specialized in hand reconstruction. He told me that the most common injury to carpenters was caused by the razor knife.
Edited 6/3/2006 8:24 am ET by knc
I whole heartedly agree with those that think the brain is the most dangerous tool. I have probably had more than one run in with nearly every tool in my shop. Too many of us take our tools for granted and cannot appreciate what could happen IN AN INSTANT if not used properly. I cannot think of one time I have been injured in my shop that it was the fault of the tool! It was MY fault for not paying attention!
Melvin
I think the table saw is potentially the most dangerous tool. Since a table saw can be use in so many different configurations of blades, angles and jigs, I think the danger is within its wide versatility. On the other hand, a good knowledge on how to deal with different situations is the key to dramatically reduce the risk of potential injuries.
I never used the blade guard on my table saw for one simple reason: They have been designed poorly by the manufacturers because they want you to remove it. If you ever get injured, they have their way out in court: you didn't use the available protection. To increase my safety, I'm using a GRR-Ripper with a MJ-Splitter from Microjig for anything that would get my hands and fingers close to a cutting tool. I'm just wondering how come so many woodworkers don't have a GRR-Ripper yet!
I also have a few habits in terms of safety. I usually spend the time to make "dry run" for the not so obvious operations so I can see if something will block me during the cut. I also work slowly so I'm not rushing. Fortunately, woodworking is a hobby for me but I want to enjoy it for several years to come. Better be slow and safe than fast and sorry...
If you want to read stories about injuries on power tools, point your browser to "http://www.woodworking.org" and pick "Accident survey". Make sure you have a good stomach because some of these stories are just plain disgusting.
Regards,
Beniboose
They have been designed poorly by the manufacturers because they want you to remove it. If you ever get injured, they have their way out in court: you didn't use the available protection.
I doubt the legitimacy of this statement. If the guards were inadequate, or unsafe it would be poor protection in court.
Profits do rule, if they didn't you wouldn't have very many companies. I don't know why we expect anything different. But if a company is guided by profits, then it's ultimately guided by the consumer. If riving knives were in such high demand, we'd be importing saws from Europe. How any of us are rushing out to replace our saw with a saw stop, or one of the other new saws with riving knives?
The problem is, we woodworkers can be really cheap sometimes. Powermatic puts out a saw with a riving knife, and we buy Grizzly because it's half the price.
Further I think we tend to minimize the cost of redesigning a table saw to use a riving knife. There are engineering costs, retooling costs, possible patent licensing costs, and marketing... Would you be willing to pay double for that new Grizzly saw?
I think we will see more saws with riving knives in the next few years. I think we are getting smarter.
I think that in order to receive a UL listing any new saw introduced in (or after") 2008 will have to have a riving knive, and existing saws will have to add the riving knife in 2011. If I have this right, and if manufacturers care, it suggests a lot of redesigns coming up. This would make the Powermatic 2000 the first of what could become a pack.
It looks like you are correct. Here is a link:https://ifs.ul.com/ifr/ifr.nsf/0/70E8BDA3446C1AEE48256FC6004C7014/$FILE/SOR70E8BDA3446C1AEE48256FC6004C7014.doc
2014 for all saws, not 2011.
Yes.
They will defend themselves by all sorts of means but in a nutshell, I strongly believe all table saw manufacturers are guilty of not providing a decent protection system even though they could do it easily.
There would be such an easy way to eliminate 95% of the kickback risks. Make a "real" riving knive that lowers and raises with the blade. This device would be so simple to integrate in any existing saw and would increase the safety dramatically. Then comes the blade guard that can be something like the SawStop one, transparent and close to the blade for a minimum footprint.
It would just take one good lawsuit to win a tough case like that and all saw manufacturers would change their saws very quickly. Unfortunately, profits rule.
Regards,
Beniboose
Hello Everybody,
There are really only two dangerous things in any shop, the human being and spontanious combustion. I run a small commercial shop and have never had to claim an injuryin ten years, in the years that I worked in others shops I have only seen a couple of accidents, the most common was something hitting the eye, I have had to find and put on ice a thumb and a young fella I was training put his finger into a jointer and various other more minor ones. I have been in the construction industry all my life so I am sure I have heard a thousand horror stories from people I have worked with. As nearly as I can figure out the real cause of the accidents was complacency, taking for granted the the five horsepower driven sawblade just inches from ones fingers. The advice I always give people whether just starting out or experienced make large movements, pull your hands away in broad sweeping gestures, eventially it becomes habbit and is always there to remind one of how dangerous this work is. When training others remember how green we all once were, common sense is something we learned and having ten is more luck than we like to admit. I have a new young fellow, a student working the summer, starting tomorrow and it scares me because I can only tell him so much, I doubt he even knows how much he would miss a finger. I personally never want to know.
GG,
You remark that, "There are really only two dangerous things in any shop, the human being and ......."
This is undoubtedly the case (and your advice concerning the education of new woodworkers is good stuff); but as it is the case, manufacturers should build for real humans and not just the ones who are perfectly rational 24 hours a day (ie none of us, except Charlie and Boss).
As a number of postings in this thread have remarked, safety features on the "dangerous" TS are not hard to design and install. American TS sellers seem to have managed to rig the market so you not only have to buy a dangerous TS, you also have to have one without other basics such as a sliding carriage, a blade brake and so forth. They offer only Unisaw clones from circa 1922.
FWW has made some noises about improving the TS. Perhaps they should be a bit more radical and start a campaign for "Real TS". They have the power to make those complacent manufacturers do right.
Lataxe
Dusty,
I teach woodshop in an American school in Tokyo, Japan to middle and high schoolers. Most of my students come to me with no woodworking background at all except for what they have learned at our school. The table saw is way up on my list of scary with my students, but as a result I watch them like a hawk. Only high schoolers are allowed to use it and most of them don't pass my competency test, so I end up cutting stuff for them. Nonetheless we have had more near misses with the TS than everything else combined. The problem is the inexperienced think they have the TS all figured out, that is when a near miss is on its way.
Having said that, in the history of our shop, about 40 years, the two worst accidents of all time were NOT on the TS. One student using the band saw had about a 90% amputation that would have been 100%, but for the fact he had a good surgeon that day who saved his finger after an eight hour surgery. After four years, the boy still does not have full feeling back in that finger. The second accident involved a former woodshop teacher ten years ago who lost the tip of his little finger in the jointer of our planer/jointer.
The most dangerous machine is the one being operated by the over-confident, inexperienced, or exhausted. I used to think that I needed to watch my intellectually challenged students very closely. However, I now know that it is the smart ones you have to watch out for. The challenged ones tend to actually listen to what they are told. However, the smart ones think they have it all figured out when the teacher is only half through the demonstration/explanation. Yup, you gotta watch the smart ones.
IMHO,
Jim
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