All ,
It sounds like some folks are surprised to know that some regular cabinetmaker types are regulars here on Knots ,
Now I am not sure why that would be a surprise since we are all woodworkers , isin’t that enough reason to be here ?
Many more hobby shop woodworkers here then pros , but the enthusiasim to share and the common bond of our craft keeps the more seasoned around and the thirst for more knowledge lures those on the learning curve .
It seems that some folks will only consider a piece to be FWW if it has a certain type of joinery , what about the big picture ?
There are woodworkers and there are woodworkers , which one are you ?
regards , dusty ,boxmaker
Replies
Cabinetmaker, furnituremaker, woodworker -all that changes is the problem being solved and the time allocated to the solution. The underlying thought process is the same, often the tools are the same, and certainly the critical eye is often the same - just changes in proportion to the piece or job.
I have a brother-in-law, who I have sparred good naturedly with over nearly forty years. While we share the same eye for detail, straightness, squareness, levelness, fit of joinery and so on, I still tell him that he is a member of the "quarter inch is close enough club". I only say that because he applies his woodworking skill set to large decks with combined railing/perimeter seating that are built on cemented lally column piers so they are dead flat, 250 ft long wooden fences which are dead straight, and picnic tables whose fit and finish is furniture like. His workshop has everything mounted on painted panels, electrical panels are clearly labeled, drawings and files on jobs are immaculate........ Is he a woodworker? You bet! Could he be a furnituremaker? You bet - if he chose to allocate his time to a project proportionally.
The important, underlying trait is an understanding of what a piece is supposed to look like when completed - design, joinery, fit, and finish. The time it takes to get there is another issue. Professional cabinetmakers, furnituremakers, and woodworkers get there a lot quicker than their amateur counterparts - why? Practice, repetition, and they have to - time is money in their world. In my retired world, pressure to fiinsh a job forces me to take a nap!
Jerry
Jerry,
" In my retired
Jerry,
" In my retired world, pressure to fiinsh a job forces me to take a nap!".
Ah ha! Mine own filosofi exactly! Me and the cat have explored every recess of the pink settee, as we gawp oot the windah at our fine domain, stuffed with tree, shrub, veg and flower. It is a wunnerful thing to sit daydreaming of what one is going to do (any time now).
Mind, there is a lot to be said for "active rest". The cat thinks not and never comes out with me on the bicycle or to shoot bow&arrers in a field. Nevertheless I return refreshed and fit whilst he is rather a large furbag; and a poor mouser.
***
Woodwork is like golf but with a purpose. I could never justify knocking a small ball into a hole all day as there is nothing at the end. With woodwork there are similar frustrations, tekneeks to learn, obstacles to overcome with a character-test thrown in; and the additional joy of producing a beautiful, functional item that someone else will be Very Pleased with.
I do envy professionals their greater experience and sometimes their speed. However, they must suffer the need to compromise from time to time - making things they perhaps would rather not; cutting a corner to meet a price demand; being banned from woodwork by having to do the sales pitch, the accounts, the.....etc..
We hobbyists are very lucky people, although we must confess to that lack of discipline engendered by snooze opportunities and the absence of a carping accountant. Still, the lilies of the field and all that.
Lataxe, larking about.
Cats Clarify Thought
Lataxe - I also have a large (18 lb.) black cat who is not far behind when I sit down. He parallel processes very well, often sitting, meowing for food, and purring - all at the same time. Having time for one's self is one of the major benefits of retirement. When I hit a stumbling block on a project, I call it quits, sit down, and discuss the problem with the cat. After a short study of the inside of my eyelids, voila! the solution is obvious.
I envy your garden views. I spent a fair amount of time travelling in the UK on business, and never met a village that I didn't like.
Jerry
Dusty (who is far more than a boxmaker),
So you are surprised that some folks, such as me, are surprised to find kitchen-makers hanging around Knots? I don't see why. To me, Knots and FWW are fully intertwined. FWW doesn't do articles on kitchens and built-ins. As I look at FWW, I see the marriage of furniture and art. You mentioned that some people think of fine woodworking as a certain type of joinery. Maybe others do, but not me. Some people think you need to have a lot of expensive tools and they prattle on about the fine differences between one hand plane and another. Expensive tools do not define fine furniture. Good joinery and tools and finishes are all NECESSARY aspects of both art-furniture and kitchens to my way of thinking. However, they are not SUFFICIENT conditions for art-furniture or "bespoke furniture" or "studio furniture" or whatever one calles it.
The primary aspects of FWW furniture are 1) beautiful design without a focus on production efficiency, 2) the use of the best woods, joinery techniques and finishing methods, even when they are not efficient, and 3) the intention that the furniture last for generations and generations. One can buy a good functional chair at IKEA or at most furniture stores. It will probably last 15 to 30 years, and be quite functional, and it will be comfortable and quite affordable because it was built with those things in mind. Those are what I think of as the characteristics of kitchens - affordable, functional, comfortable, and lasting 15 to 30 years before the owner wants the next latest style.
If one buys a PIcasso, one does not toss it and replace it in 15 to 30 years. If one buys a Maloof or a Krenov, or a joinerswork or a Rob Millard piece, one does not expect that it was build to be replaced in 15 years. One expects it to last for generations. It is a piece of furniture but also something MUCH MORE. It is a piece of artwork which was meant to endure. Because no shortcuts were made in its construction, it takes a long time to make, and thus fine furniture is out of the range of most working class folks, just as a Renoir is.
Based on our recent conversations, I have been thinking about the possibilities of "Kitchens as art". I can easily see Richard Jones or David Savage or... or.... or..... designing and making an "art-kitchen", which would be designed and constructed as they would any piece of their furniture. It would be designed and made to NOT EVER BE REPLACED. It would be quite expensive - well out of the range of what anyone in the middle class or upper middle class could afford. I have seen a number of kitchens costing well over $50,000 which are just kitchens. I don't know of anyone who wants their kitchen to last forever.
I have never seen an "art kitchen" or a "FWW type kitchen" but I have seen "bespoke offices" with chairs and conference tables designed and made by "fine woodworkers". But a "bespoke kitchen" is well within the realm of imagination.
I know a number of woodworkers who make kitchens and also make art furniture. You are one of them. I would expect such folks to read FWW and be on Knots because of their interest in art furniture, not because of their interest in kitchens.
Have you noticed that Ray Pine goes at his furniture making not only with the skills of a master craftsman but also with the mind of an art historian who can describe from memory the differences between similar pieces made in different parts of the same state. I have never seen a kitchen maker with that way of thinking about designing a kitchen.
I can see a fine woodworker who is PASSIONATE about making studio furniture, but I can't see anyone getting passionate about making a kitchen in the $15K to $100K range. Kitchens are disposable. How can anyone get excited or passionate about making something that is disposable? I think of FWW furniture as non-disposable.
My opinions are not worth much. You hear me say that "$4 and my opinion will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks". My opinions are often non-standard. I am never surprised to find that my opinions are not generally held. I am very happy with people holding opinions directly contradictory to mine. But now, for the little that they are worth, you have my opinions as to why someone might be surprised to find woodworkers who are kitchen makers who are not interested in studio/bespoke/art/FWW furniture, hanging around in Knots and FWW. IHMO, Fine Homebuilding might be more appropriate. I do know some kitchen builders who do that in order to make a living but who REALLY like to make the type of furniture that might make it into the FWW magazine.
I do a lot of carving. I don't look to FWW to help with the type of carving that I do most of the time. I do look to it for info on Chippendale carving, for example, which is part of what I consider FWW furniture. There are other magazines that are more appropriate to carving.
So I am surprised that you are surprised. But you seem not only surprised but disappointed. I am saddened that you are disappointed. I don't look down on kitchen making. I think of it as a fine and valuable and honored way of making a living.
If you know of photos or writeups on "art kitchens" that are meant to last forever and are in the class of bespoke/studio/art/FWW kitchens, please let me know. I would like to learn more, and am very open to learning. I am fully willing to change my mind completely.
Enjoy (and I mean that),
Mel
Mel.. geeeee!
Here is a bad picture of a Sitting bench (or two) that I made to fit my two Canopy China styled four poster. I have posted pictures of the beds before. Some of the bed parts can be seen in the background. I will deliver when these two benches are finished.
Is this FineWoorking? I also have made many kitchen cabinets for many others... I think I made them with the skills I may or NOT have on every project..
By the way.. Both look different, Do to lighting.. And my ctrappy photo skills.. They are almost the same in the same light..
Will George,
those are two mighty fine benches. They will go nicely with the beds you made. I like the shape, color and finish. Looks like you had fun.
Mel
FWW for "kitchens"
Last fall, our church pastor asked that I go look at some new kitchem cabinets which were to be donated. He wanted to put them in our church library so tha the counter area could be used during coffee hours, small church dinners, etc. I looked at them and said I thought that they were wonderful high end kitchen cabinets, but should not be in our church library. I was volunteered to be "commissioned -(zero margin, priceless satisfaction)" to build an alternative. The attached images are of the finished installation. The white glare just above the top is a reflection off of a plateglass top cover. The matching framed images are original chuch sketches by a deceased church member.
This will be around more an 15-30 years, if for no other reason than it weighs about 280 lbs!!!
Jerry
Jerry,
That is a nice cabinet you made for the church library. It doesn't look like any kitchens that I have ever seen. It is free-standing, and looks like a sideboard. Excellent job.
Mel
Monster Sdeboard
Mel - You are correct! It is a sideboard - a monster sideboard. It is 101" L x 40"H x 20"D. Solid cherry, frame and book matched panel, mortise and tenon construction. The matching picture frames are also cherry. My winter's volunteer work only cost me the materials and a new Rikon bandsaw!! Passion makes for easy cost/benefit analysis!!!
Jerry
All,
There is no test required to join this forum. The requirements are only that one have access to a computer and the Internet. If you aren't interested in the subject matter then you won't hang around long. So, the one thing Knot-heads have in common is an interest in fine woodworking. The level that each knot-head actually produces fine woodworking probably varies widely.
I'm here because at least I'm interested in fine woodworking and I like the people here. I also feel that I am among my peers and can both learn about and offer insight into our craft. The best one word description of what I do is "carpenter" but under that heading I've done just about everything, from foundations to fine furniture. It's what I've done professionally my entire life since my teens. I'm still learning my trade.
My career has made many twists and turns and I currently find myself doing kitchen remodeling and install cabinets for other shops. I wouldn't mind building cabinets but I have a little conflict of interest in trying to sell kitchen cabinets that I would build and need to be careful.
I have, over the years, built several fine furniture pieces ( in my opinion). My career goal at this time is to become a professional furniture maker. I've spent the last year (in my spare time) building and putting together a nice shop and have produced a few pieces that I would consider fine furniture. I prefer to build original designs. I appreciate traditional period pieces but that is not where my interest lies. But, being a carpenter for hire, I'd build whatever anybody wanted me to build.
A note on longevity of your woodwork. It's nice to think that the furniture you build will last forever. It's mostly a matter of how well the items are cared for and used. I have some work around that still looks as good as the day it was done after thirty plus years and other work that doesn't look so good due to hard use and lack of care. Once it leaves the shop we have little control over it.
Bret
Old.. What makes a OLD KNOTS HEAD TICK.. LOLO... LOL..
I just bought a wooden gear clock.. My littlest, little lady and ,I were looking for stuff on the net.. She saw this wooden Serpentine wood gear clock and she 'Just had to have one'
Now I have to make it! She said she wanted it for her birthday present.. I told her that her new birthday was last month.. I am not sure she understood my comment...
ticking
When I rock back and forth like a pendulum, there are a couple of joints that make snapping noises that sound kinda like ticks. But, I'm just happy the clock is still running. ;-)
It seems to me that Knotheads are rather like the woods we use. There's both hard and soft, and some are more splintery than others. And, some of us are just plane warped. ;-)
Hey Ralph,
"What makes a
Hey Ralph,
"What makes a knothead tick?"
A tick is a bloodsucking parasite. Now, while I've met a few people that I'd say had those characteristics, I can't say I've come across any on knots. hahaha
Ray
knothead ticks
Neither have I. But, ticks usually hang out in brush, not trees. So they probably post on the Fine Brushworking forum. ;-)
Hi dusty,
"When I
Hi dusty,
"When I apprenticed the sign on the wall said ' quality has no time limit ' "
The sign on my wall says, "We do three kinds of work here, good, fast, and cheap. You can pick any two.
If it is good and fast, ir will not be cheap. If it is good and cheap, it will not be fast. If it is fast and cheap, it will not be good."
Then there is the sign I saw on the wall of the sheet-metal shop: "Never time enough to do it right. Always time enough to do it over."
Cheers,
Ray
Dusty,
I am certain that you and I are in complete agreement on this subject, and that you are having a little fun with me. You asked if I am serious about art furniture lasting "forever". I was using a figure of speech.
I feel certain that if you bought a Chippendale highboy from Ray Pine or a Federal sideboard from Rob Millard, you would expect it to last your lifetime, and you would bequeath it to one of your kids, and expect them to do the same. Four generations of people using a piece of furniture is nothing. All three of my kids have furniture from my maternal grandparents. All of that furniture (1880-1930) is in as good shape today as the day it left the manufacturer. It should easily last another four generations. (which would make eight generations). This is not "studio furniture". It is good solid well made furniture from factories. I would expect a piece made by Ray Pine or Rob Millard to last far longer than these pieces -- far longer. My grandparent's pieces do not have the kind of joinery that Ray or Rob would use.
If you bought a bookcase from IKEA for $79, my guess is that you wouldn't expect it to outlast you. If you bought a Michaelangelo painting, my guess is that you would expect it to be around in another thousand years (more or less), and maybe far longer.
Making kitchens is, I repeat, an honorable profession. Everybody needs a kitchen. Making cars is an honorable profession. Everybody needs a car. Not everybody needs a Rob Millard Federal sideboard . Most people today wouldn't know what Federal period furniture is. Cars and kitchens and IKEA furniture do not generally outlive their owners. I believe that most bespoke/art/FWW/studio furniture is expected to last for many generations.
I am glad to hear that your kitchens last more than 30 years. I am thrilled to hear that. I figured that your work is many cuts above the industry average. You are surely one of the best. Now let's talk about normal average kitchens these days. My wife and I have a house that was built in 1978 and had nice oak kitchen cabinets that functioned well. The style of the cabinets was definitely 1970s. My wife wanted a new look to the kitchen, much lighter, and corian countertops. This was about 12 years ago. At that time, lots of her friends were having their kitchens redone. The old cabinets could be seen waiting to be hauled to the dump. Beautiful new cabinets were being installed. We went to an excellent kithen company. They had about fifteen different styles and a host of different woods, and different countertops, etc. My wife picked what she wanted from that catalog, and she got it. My belief is that in another ten years, the same thing will happen. I love her. Her interest in an up to date kitchen is mirrored by ALL of the people whose houses I have visited in the past few decades.
When I look at the House For Sale ads, I see "recently remodelled kitchen", "modern gourmet kitchen", "$50K kitchen installed recently", etc etc etc. I have never seen a "house for sale" ad which listed the fact that the kitchen was 35 years old and had never been updated.
If you bought a piece from Ray Pine or David Savage or the Barnsley Studio, or a Maloof rocker and paid in the neighborhood of $15k to $30k, I have a feeling you would not take it to the dump in fifteen to 30 years. You would be buying a work of art which you expected to increase in monetary value with age. You would insure it. You would take great care of it. You would put it in your will. It would be a work of art which should be treated as such.
Now not everybody in Knots works at that level, but until recently, I was under the mistaken belief that folks who read FWW and hand around in Knots are trying very hard to achieve the ability to operate at that level, or at least to move closer to it than they are now. Except for the article on Norm Abrams a while back, I don't remember kitchens being in FWW. Norm was the one who got me interested in building "NICE FURNITURE". I never considered him a "fine woodworker", although I consider him a great guy to learn machine woodworking from. At that time, I didn't know about FWW. When I found out about it, I didn't pay much attention to Norm any more. My goals and aspirations changed. BUT I SURE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE HIS SET OF TOOLS. Those tools together with Lataxe's hand tools would make a great workshop.
Does that explain the figure of speech "should last forever"?
Do you really disagree with any of this?
Thank you.
Enjoy,
Mel
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