My shop is well equipped with machinery and while I do a lot of chisel work the most plane use I do is with a bevel up block plane and rabbet plane. I’d like to “slow” things down a bit and build hand planing skills for smaller projects. Is the best plane to start out with the Veritas #4 smoothing plane. I’d appreciate guidance from all of you that are much better at hand planing than I am. Thanks
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Replies
I would recommend a regular #5 - a double iron, bevel down plane, it can do all what #4 does and a few other things.
Since both models are double iron they are equal in terms of produced surface quality. #5 however can also do joinery tasks where #4 is kinda having limitations. E.g. with #5 you can do edge jointing on considerable lengths, which is going to be a challenge with #4. Shooting end grain, blocking a tenon or dovetails is also better with #5 - easier to maintain flat surface. And so on.
#4 is great to have when you have another, longer plane, like #5 or #6.
Having been in the same position a few years ago, I can certainly recommend a good quality plane - using a bad one is an exercise in pain.
For me, I started with a cheap No4 and still use it. I have a No5 but don't find it as useful - too heavy for fun.
I would say it depends on the size of your projects. I have about two dozen planes, but most of them are in storage at present. I kept a No 3 and a 60.5 block plane with me. At this time I am doing smaller projects, boxes, small furniture (end table) etc. The No 3 works fine. The smaller size is an advantage when working with smaller material, the 5 would be awkward to use. With larger projects like a dining table the No 5 was a better plane to use because of the larger surfaces. My first bench plane was a No4 Stanley that belonged to my Dad, so I am very partial to that plane. Remember the key to using any plane is the sharpness of the blade. Learn how to sharpen and set up the plane and you will happy with any plane you chose.
Pretty much this. I have a No 3, 4, 5 that are my primary planes and depending on what I'm doing each is suitable. Since you said smaller projects, I'd suggest a No 3. I personally think the lighter weight of a vintage Stanley No 3 makes the slightly better than the premium new ones. The thickness of the metal blades is just fine in the vintage ones. I use a vintage plane almost daily and there is no chatter or anything else folks discuss.
I would consider buying an older model Stanley. Your Veritas #4 is $239 plus shipping from Lee Valley. It would be an excellent plane, no doubt. You can buy high quality used Stanley #4s online for under $125. Try thebestthings.com. This guy sells a ton of tools and does not sell junk. He describes them accurately and knows the difference between a "user" and a "collector's item". I just checked his site and, surprisingly, does not have single #4 listed. He updates his list weekly, I think. There's a ton of planes available on Ebay, but you'll take more risk buying there.
I get where you're coming from. But I always suggest that someone buying thir first plane buy new, and premium -- Veritas or Lie Nielsen. Almost everyone who started with a vintage plane wants to upgrade it with a premium aftermarket blade and chipbreaker. Their bargain vintage plane ends up being not much of a cost savings. And it takes a lot of time, and still may have issues. A premium plane needs a 2 minute honing and it's ready to go. Much easier for a beginner, in my opinion.
I’d second this. When I started my own way down the hand plane path, I more or less luckily/lazily/whatever chose to purchase a couple nice L-N planes. A kiss and a grin, and I was off and running. Er, planing. Now that I have a somewhat better idea of what I’m doing, how I should do it, and the ins-and-outs of plane fettling, I feel up to—and comfortable with—the idea of purchasing a vintage plane and bringing it up to suitable condition.
My favorite plane has been a Stanley Bedrock 605 type 6 built around 1918. I put a Hock 01 iron in it and it makes gossamer shavings --easily < .001 inch. I bought it on eBay for $130. I had to do very little to restore it; flattened the sole with 120 grit self adhesive sandpaper placed on my cast iron table saw top....easy to do.
I have a Lie-Neilsen #4 and a Veritas #4....the former is far superior to the latter. But my go to plane to flatten and smooth end table and coffee table tops continues to be the 605.
I also use a 605, and love it, even with the original blade.
I got a better deal; a neighbor in our large retirement community put a note on our blog that she had some "old tools" that belonged to her father, free to anyone who could use them. Typically, that translates to 'junk;' but I pulled up the photos, saw the ends of a couple of planes and saws. I was there in 3 minutes.
There were the 605, a #5 and a #7, all in pristine condition. A Disston rip saw, 1879 patent, and a Disston 26" back saw; both in near mint condition and razor sharp, plus saw sets for both. And in another box, a Goodell miter box, 1904 patent, in dirty but near-perfect condition.
I, too, use the 605 for flattening large boards for my bottle cases.
You are SO lucky!!
Consider this alternative tactic - make your own (wooden) plane to a size and function that'll serve many purposes .... but which is also straightforward and inexpensive to make.
Why make rather than buy? There's the lesser cost but, perhaps more to the point, you'll learn a tremendous amount about various woodworking matters & skills in designing and making a plane yourself. Think of it as a right of passage not dissimilar to that of a woodworker making their own bench.
Don't assume, either, that it'll be difficult to make a wooden plane. It's all straightforward stuff that just requires careful timber selection and precision in the measuring and making of relatively small cuts, joints and parts.
I first made a plane using the Veritas kit, which is a sort of Krenov-style small plane but with a Veritas Norris adjuster rather than just a wedge with hammer-tap adjustments. After making it, I improved the design by using one of their block plane adjusters with a finer thread and burying the adjuster's body in a precision-cut round hole in the plane body rather than using the Veritas metal screw-on holding ring for the adjuster in the kit.
I've now made several planes using this method, of various types and sizes serving various functions. They work far better than I thought they would - very well indeed - and cost about 20-25% of the cost of a Veritas or LN metal plane. (Mostly for the blade and the adjuster).
They're also easier to refine and maintain than a metal plane. (The wooden sole flattens very quickly, for example).
Try it. You'll like it!
Lataxe
“[Deleted]”
I disagree with new necessarily being better for a beginner. Rebuilding/refurbishing an older plane can really lead to a better understanding of the tool and how to use it properly. Learning to sharpen and hone is vital. Of my two dozen plus planes, the only brand new plane was a shoulder plane kit from Hock. I have only upgraded one plane with a Hock blade (No 3 circa 1920) and while a nice difference, not enough to upgrade the rest. And for the cost of a new plane you can buy at least two vintage planes.
Also look at the content on this site about restoring planes. There is a full video series.
I will have to disagree with you in one sense, I always recommend a woodworker looking to learn hand planing always start with a top quality hand plane from a premium manufacturer, in NA that usually means Lie-Nielsen or Veritas although other brands such as Clifton can be found on occasion. My logic for this is these planes are virtually always ready to use right out of the box with maybe just a little honing of the blade. This will give the best initial experience to what a handplane should perform like in my opinion. Restoring an old Stanley or Record while it can be rewarding and potentially cost effective, if not done properly it could discourage a new user and face it there are some Stanley's that are pure junk and not worth 5 minutes of restoration time, and how is someone new to handplane going to know what to look for at the flea market or on eBay. After they know how a quality plane should perform it is much easier for them to restore an older plane if that is what they enjoy.
If I were to recommend a particular plane it would be the Lie-Nielsen 62 bevel up Jack. It is an extremely versatile tool and reasonably priced for a Lie-Nielsen. With a couple spare blades with different grinds it can handle 70% of most planing needs from smoothing the most gnarly of grain to scrub and shooting.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2010/12/09/one-bench-plane-can-do-it-all
I agree with you…The LN 62 bevel up is the plane is a great plane and the one I reach for most of the time. Can’t go wrong with this high quality plane.
I agree on a the LN 62...received one for my birthday. It comes with a iron with a bevel of 25 degrees...which I converted to 27 degrees. I purchased a second blade and converted it to 43 degrees. Given the frog is 12 degrees, I end up at 39 degrees and 55 degrees...the latter is superb when you have trouble with tear out...a great plane for shooting and tear out.
+ another for the LN 62, my first purchase after a block plane. As noted above, it is extremely versatile plane that I reach for often.
The OP mentioned working on smaller projects, and I have used this plane effectively on small boxes and drawers, swapping out irons honed at 27 and 40 degrees appropriate to the task at hand. It is also my go to shooting plane using the LN accessory hot dog.
I have since added a couple of #4s — a finely tuned pre-war (type 16) Stanley/Bailey and an excellent bronze LN — but the 62 still sees regular use. The bronze #4 is just too heavy for smaller projects, and I have the re-ironed Stanley set up for a slightly coarser cut.
One more vote for Lie Nielsen 62. There are better dedicated planes for given tasks, but for versatility and bang for your buck, it’s a hard one to beat.
You do have to learn to properly hone and use a plane. I would add WoodRiver as an excellent more economical plane.
IMO starting with low angle plane is a mistake.
A #4 or 5 should be the first bench plane. That said, I use my #6 more than any others combined.
Sorry, but I wouldn't touch Woodriver, or the new Stanley, with a ten foot pole. I've seen too many that were complete jokes.
Agreed. Here are 3 planes to show how they are constructed.
A Stanley Bailey Bedrock 605(c.1918), a LN#4, and a Veritas #4
The 605 has a Hock .01 installed.
Frog:
The LN#4 has the same frog construction as the 605..it has 2 pins allowing precise adjustment to the frog. The Veritas has a single screw with an adjustment dial in the rear.
Chipbreaker:
The Hock Blade Chip breaker and the LN chip breaker are flat and very robust. The Veritas has the classic chip breaker seen in regular Stanley Bailey planes. The frogs in the 605 and LN are beefy, though the over all weight is the same.
John, if I didn't know better, I'd say you don't know what you're talking about :-)
I've got three V3 WR's and they are on the same tier as my Lie Nielsen. Yes, there were issues with the V1 of WR but they were never a "complete joke".
Here we go.....................
Just out of curiosity why would you say starting with a low angle is a mistake? Blades can be ground so the angle of attack is the same. The beauty of the No 62 comes with buying a couple blades to swap out for different applications. Being a low angle design makes this very quick and easy, especially for a newcomer to hand planes. I ask in hopes to grow the conversation and give the original poster as much information as possible to inform their purchase.
The ONLY reason I see is that a LN62 is a $300 item., I have one and love it..it is robust, and can allow a variety of blades to get a variety of cutting angles. It is my go to shooting plane, as well.
My post about 605's, LN#4;s, and Veritas #4's was only to illustrate the differences in each plane and why the LN is considered superior, and worth the investment. It also was meant to show that LN hand planes are a true successor to the Stanley Bedrocks made in early 20th century.
I think robertejr was who posted that he didn't care for low-angle planes. Although this has nothing to do with the LN 62. He doesn't seem to have a thorough understanding of what the 62 is, it is not a low angle plane, a bevel up plane cuts at exactly the same angle as a #4 bevel down with a standard frog depending on the angle the blade is ground, as you know.
jovogtmd was simply pointing out that most LN planes are modeled(not the 62) on the old Stanley Bedrock design, which was sold by Stanley as their premier plane while Veritas models their planes on the simpler Stanley Bailey design. The simple fact is well made and tuned planes of both designs will work very well, although bedrocks do command a premium price on the used tool market.
I know what they are. I stand corrected, sorry I should have said bevel up, not low angle. I know there are people who only use them as well as people who never use them.
I'm saying a traditional plane is better for a beginner.
Gotcha. I was just curious as I like to hear different points of view. I actually reach for my “traditional” bevel down planes more frequently than I do the 62 these days, and prefer their feel and adjustment, but the 62 sure is versatile for a starting point. My 4 1/2 and 6 along with the 60 1/2 block plane are probably my favorites that I use most.
My post was a reply to robertejr, not jovogtmd. If you look at how my reply is indented I think it will become clear where I meant to direct the question. Sorry for the confusion.
I agree with both of you, I was merely curious why Robert felt the way he did, not for myself, but to contribute to the original posters question.
“[Deleted]”
For me, learning how to use waterstones to sharpen my plane irons and chisels opened up a new world in woodworking. I have a Tormek which was purchased later. It does an acceptable job, but really all you need is 800, 1200, and 8000 grit waterstones, and a piece of plate glass and emery cloth to flatten the stones.
“[Deleted]”
I agree with the general consensus that you should get a good quality plane. There are great older planes out there as well as a few good new ones. You can't go wrong with Lie-Nielsen or Veritas either one for a new plane. I have no experience with Wood River, so I can't comment on them.
What I do recommend though is learning as much as possible about how to properly use planes. David Charlesworth has some great videos on using them that are available through Lie-Nielsen. Also, Tom McLaughlin did a great video about 3 months ago that you can see on YouTube through his Epic Woodworking channel. Lost Art Press has published several books that are very informative that I would highly recommend - the first of which is "The Essential Woodworker" by Robert Wearing. It's one thing to own great tools, but a whole different thing to know how to use them properly.
The absolutely easiest bench plane to learn on is a bevel up. They will not produce the "ultimate" performance that a double iron bevel down plan can, but the bevel up will see a woodworker through 95% of wood types, and be so much easier to set up and plane reliably.
The jack-of-all-trades in bevel up planes is the low angle jack. Veritas call this the LA Jack, and Lie Nielsen call it the #62. The size is between a smoother and a jointer, and it can do both jobs, just not quite as well as a specialist type. It also excels as a shooting plane.
Of the two makes, the Veritas is slightly wider (2 1/4" blade) than the LN (2" blade), but the Veritas is the more advanced design (a number of extra features, including stops to re-insert a blade after sharpening, and a better designed adjustable toe). The Veritas also offers the best steel at this time (PM-V11) vs the A2 of LN.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I would enjoy a discussion about A2 vs PM-V11 vs O1. I purchased Ron Hock's Book "The Perfect Edge" and he has a thorough discussion about A2 vs O1...a good read. I called Ron and spoke to him over the phone...he prefers his o1 blades(!)....so I purchased 2 of them...they were installed in a Bedrock 605 and a Stanley Bailey #7...they have produced better shavings than the A2 the came with my Veritas #4.....thoughts people??
BTW... I have found sharpening them very easy so that the idea one holds an edge better than another to me isn't that critical...4-5 strokes on a Norton 8000 puts the edge right back on. n.b. I have put a hollow ground on them with a 8 inch Norton grinding wheel to facilitate sharpening.
A2, O1 and PM-V11 all get equally sharp when honed correctly. However, they do not hold an edge the same.
PM-V11 will outlast A2, which will outlast O1. Each about 1 1/2 to twice as long.
Regards from Perth
Derek
O1 is definitely easier to sharpen and will sharpen with just about any sharpening system.
A2 being harder is more sensitive to the honing system used and some stones and systems struggle to sharpen it to its full potential but the edge will last longer when it is. If you are struggling to sharpen A2 you might what to try stones specifically designed to do so.
VM-11 is like the love child of the two, it sharpens like O1 and holds an edge as good or better than A2. The only drawback is that to the best of my knowledge it is only available from Veritas.
There are other hybrids out there that also show promise such as cryogenically hardened steel which is basically O1 that has been super chilled to supposedly reduce the size and align the crystals within the steel, doing this strengthens the steel and reduces fracturing of the edge. It has shown excellent results according to some testing and tool reviews.
My head spins when looking at all the alloys the knife people use. There must be hundreds of different steels, and they get into fistfights over which are best.
I took an 80 hr course at the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park NY and had a chance to review culinary knives...Chefs think in hardness --with steel that is 58-64 HRC ( Hard-Rolled Coil)..The German Knives (Wusthoff) have this hardness as do the Japenese Santuko knives. Bevels on these knives are about 15 degrees--the Wusthoffs are double beveled, and the Japanese are typically single. They too, cut like razors, though I have found that I need to use wood cutting boards to perserve their sharpness. I sharpen them with a Chefs Choice XV sharpener to give me a more accurate edge.
This is exactly what Ron Hock said in his book "The Perfect Edge"...it is a good read an very relevant to this discussion
I hope the OP was able to get his answer somewhere in here ;-) A 'ready to use' No5 or equivalent can be a good all around plane for a beginner. There is a camp that tends to answer the "if I could only have one" question with a 'low angle jack' answer. I can't say that's bad advice.
I started with a low angle jack, a Millers Falls No4 equivalent, and a block plane and needed little else for quite some time. These are still in the stable and still used often. Hope the OP didn't get lost in all the conversation. Lots of good info here.
I would get a Lie Nielsen 4 to 5 1/2 for a first plane. I tried for years to use the old Stanley Bailey’s but until I bought the LN #4 Bronze Smoother I really didn’t know what a plane would do. Another very important part of this is figuring out how to sharpen them and there are some great videos on that.
I don’t want a low angle plane, I don’t care for how they adjust by having to tap the blade to get the proper angle on my block planes so I know I wouldn’t care for it if I bought a Lie Nielsen #62.