Replies

1. 
   BG | Sep 17, 2008 03:38am | #1

   jphelps7,

   The short answer to your question is the #7. It's the one bench plane that can take you to the finished surface. Now, if your stock is rough and uneven a #5 would certainly help and is lighter to push around....and with figured surface the #4.5 can't be beat...but of course the block plane serves so many functions. You'll need scrapers to bring that wood to potential.

   Also, many of us use our planer to flatten both sides...

1. 
   jphelps7 | Sep 17, 2008 04:10am | #2

   Thanks, BG:

   The stock is rough ( bansawed ) and has some uneven places.  Gorgeous figure.

   Would like to have all three of those planes, but budget does not allow right now.

   At age 74, maybe I should go with the 5 1/2 since it is much less to push around.  Also, the complete learning curve on hand planes awaits me.  My goal is to learn enough to be able to completely finish all four sides with hand planes.  Right now, feel like I need to learn enough to flatten one side.

   Your thoughts,

   JP7

1. 
   joinerswork | Sep 17, 2008 06:24am | #3

   jp,

   You only need plane enough to get one face of those boards flat enough that they aren't cupped, bowed, or twisted on the bottom, going thru the machine.  Not necessary to have that face perfectly surfaced, just not uneven. Cut the pieces a little (inch or so) overlong for their intended use, rather than trying to flatten a whole board.   Once surfaced, you can flip them to clean up the hand planed side, as you approach final thickness.

   Ray

2. 
   philip | Sep 17, 2008 08:13am | #4

   So do as Ray suggests and get a #51/2 size, which is versatile and easier to manage than a #7 since you are not too familiar with hand planes. You can also smooth and edge joint with it quite effectively and it will feel better than a #5 which is narrower.In fact one can do most normal cabinet making jobs with just that #51/2 when you are not dealing with long boards and joints.

   Philip Marcou
3. 
   dkellernc | Sep 17, 2008 02:39pm | #5

   I'm going to give you a slightly different take on the above advice (it's not necessarily contradictory, just a slightly different preference):

   Learning to handplane is not rocket science; however, starting with 4-squaring a board (or even completely flattening an entire face of a rough board) is a relatively challenging task. My recommendation would be to purchase a smoothing plane (like a #4 or a #4-1/2) and learn how to finish-smooth a board from a planer first. Not only is a smoothing plane probably the most used in a hybrid power tool/handtool shop, it's a fair bit lighter than any of the joinery bench planes (#5s and above).

   However, if you wish to complete the job at hand and are determined to do it with a hand plane, I would suggest the L-N #5-1/4 junior jack plane. It's essentially the same length as the #5 and #5-1/2, but it has a narrower blade (and thus a narrower body) and is considerably lighter and easier to push for the same shaving depth. Your next step is to camber the blade (slightly rounding it from side to side - it comes straight across from the factory), then to sharpen and hone it. Fortunately, purchasing a new high-quality plane from L-N or L-V means that you will not have to flatten the sole of the plane as you would if you were re-habbing a flea market Stanley. The bset suggestion here is to find someone at the local woodworking club (or the local woodworking store) that regularly uses handplanes and can show you how to camber a blade and hone it - it's far, far easier and less frustrating than figuring it out from a book or net forums.

   Finally, you'll want to have that same person show you how to flatten a board - it's not automatic, there are some techniques involved (though not difficult techniques).

   If you're patient you can learn all of this and still use the techniques with your cherry boards, but if you need to get the project done, I'd suggest taking the boards to a local cabinet shop and pay them to flatten them for you on a large jointer and planer, then start learning to handplane with an easier wood, such as straight-grain mahogany or poplar.

1. 
   jphelps7 | Sep 17, 2008 05:17pm | #6

   dkellernc:

   You have pulled all the responses together quite nicely and I appreciate very much your time in doing so. 

   Based on all the above threads, I am leading towards the 4 1/2 smoothing plane.  Use it to get one side of these short boards planer ready.....not totally flat....one or two boards at a time.  This would acclimate me to hand planes to some extent and give me a good all around usable plane for my needs in a very small shop reproducing high end Shaker style furniture.   From all my reading, this smoother is almost a necessity in most shops.

   What do you think?

1. 
   dkellernc | Sep 17, 2008 09:17pm | #12

   If you've no handplanes whatsoever, a smoother is a great place to start. In a solely hand-tool shop, the minimum necessary to 4-square a large board that's in wind or cupped and prepare it for a finish is a jointer plane and a smoother, though most of us add either a fore plane or a jack plane with a heavily cambered edge to that list. The fore or jack plane isn't absolutely necessary, but it greatly reduces the amount of work because they remove material quickly; one doesn't usually set up a jointer or a smoother for that purpose.However, given the dimensions of your project, a #4 or a #4-1/2 will allow you to remove a cup across the width of the board, though not remove a good deal of wind (twist) along the length. For that, as the other posters have noted, requires a longer plane.If you're new to handplaning and want an out-of-the-box plane, a Lie-Nielsen #4 (I prefer bronze, but iron will work just as well and save you a few bucks) would be an excellent choice. The 4-1/2, in my opinion, is a bit too wide to give a beginner. The result is either a great deal more force required to push it through a shaving, or a considerably thinner shaving at the same amount of force. Both can be frustrating for a beginner - either the plane stalls during the planing stroke and leaves a nice gash in the board, or the shaving is so thin that it's difficult to get a wide one.Again, if you want an "all-around" plane, a #5-1/4 Junior Jack can be made to work as a smoother, and also as a reasonably long plane to remove cup across a board. Particularly if you're working with 4/4 stock, it's often not absolutely necessary to remove a bow or a little twist out of the length of a board - the piece of furniture, assuming the joinery is cut accurately, will do it for you (for example, a shelf that fits into dados).It's not that having boards completely square isn't a "nice to have", but something attributed to Mike Dunbar is good to remember. I'm paraphrasing here, but it was something to the effect "A lot of guys think a engineer's digital caliper is a woodworking tool. It's not."

1. 
   jphelps7 | Sep 17, 2008 11:58pm | #14

   Thanks so very much for your reply.  I think I have the information I need to make a decision now and you have played a vital part in that.  There is absolutely no substitute for experience and you have kindly shared yours.

   Thanks,

   JP7

    

4. 
   Samson | Sep 17, 2008 05:28pm | #7

   You need a 7.  But if you're just going to use it to get one side flat enough to register on the downside of the planer, you don't really need a LN.  You can get a very good vintage user for under $100.  Even if you upgrade that with a Hock or LN replacement iron, you're still a couple hundred dollars ahead. 

   Examples:

   http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Clean-old-Stanley-No-7-Jointer-Plane_W0QQitemZ260285908215QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item260285908215&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

   http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanley-No-7-Jointer-Plane-Type-9-1902-1907_W0QQitemZ110288131318QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110288131318&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

   http://cgi.ebay.com/ZENITH-LARGE-22-WOOD-PLANE-LIKE-STANLEY-7-OR-KK-KEEN_W0QQitemZ360088099609QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item360088099609&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

   
   

   ---

   Edited 9/17/2008 10:56 am ET by Samson

5. 
   MikeHennessy | Sep 17, 2008 06:07pm | #8

   OK -- I'm gonna go completely contrary to the "Woodworker's Bible" here. Is your wood relatively flat, i.e., not twisted? By that I mean, if you put a set of winding sticks on it, do they match up? And does it lay flat on the workbench? If so, you can totally skip the jointer, scrub, whatever. Just put it through the planer, taking light passes until one side is smooth, flip it and repeat.

   I've been doing that for at least 10 yrs now, and I've never had a problem yet. IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on starting out on a jointer. If you're careful in selecting your stock, you rarely need to joint a stick prior to thickness planing.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   Samson | Sep 17, 2008 06:19pm | #9

   Mike, I agree about the jointer, but I think your "ifs" are pretty big ones.  Slight twist - rocking on the diagonal when placed on a flat surface - is really really common in my experience.  And obtaining stock that is "flat enough" from the get go is easier said than done.  All that said, the planer can do wonders with slightly imperfect boards - especially if the problem is something like cupping. 

1. 
   dougmeyer | Sep 17, 2008 06:55pm | #10

   If all you are looking for is to rough plane a board to go into the thickness planer, then I agree that a larger older plane may be a good starting point. I have an old Ward Master plane it is about equal to the Stanley #5 or so. (I think) and it works nicely for this type of use. Of course beyond that when I want to botch up some wood (I mean finish) I pull out my LN #4. But I would suggest looking for an off brand #5 or #7 or equal. And I know that some of the other companies stuff was ok.  And the one I use (belonged to my Grandfather) still has the original blade and works well. And it could use to be sharpened a bit but lets not get started on that again. :)

   But I just (a few weeks ago) did what you are talking about doing with some mahogany (odd as I tend to use mostly cherry)

   Doug M.

2. 
   MikeHennessy | Sep 18, 2008 02:28pm | #16

   Well, IME, slight twist is no biggie. It usually comes out in the planer. Also, depending on the intended use of the board, *slight* twist can be overcome -- e.g., if it's a 5' long board to be used in a table top or panel glue-up, a little twist can be corrected when clamping and glueing.

   I've had a jointer for about 30 yrs. When I got my planer 8 or 9 years ago, I put a blanket over the jointer and pushed it into a corner of the shop where it now lives. Other than making some honkin' rabbets on it for some molding, I bet I haven't had to use it 5 times over that whole period. And I've put thousands of bf of rough stock through the planer.

   Most times, even if there is some minor issue with the stock after planing, it can be corrected at glue-up. (The glaring exception is doors. Those have to be made with absolutely straight and true stock.)

   As someone posted here a few months ago, commercial furniture shops don't even have jointers.

   IMHO, a concept that is sorely lacking among WWers and tool buyers (especially tool buyers) is that "good enough" is often better than "best". ;-)

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

2. 
   jphelps7 | Sep 17, 2008 08:02pm | #11

   Mike, the 13" boards have a very slight cup in them but no twist, etc.  Some places on the boards look like the bandsaw was stopped and started again leaving slight indentions at stop point.

   Some 9" to 10" boards I was able to run thru thickness planer from the get go with great results.  It is just the 13" boards that I need to hand plane some to get them ready for thickness planer.

   I have no suppliers less than 1,000 miles of me that carry "prime" cherry, so I can't hand select my boards.

   I value your input highly.  Thanks,

   JP7

    

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Sep 18, 2008 02:04pm | #15

   Cup is no problem -- just feed them to the planer. Feed the convex side up first. Plane until you have a flat surface on the useable parts of the board, flip and repeat. Note that it is important to take very light cuts on the first side through so the rollers do not press the cup out of the piece, or it'll spring back as it exits the planer.

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

1. 
   jphelps7 | Sep 18, 2008 05:01pm | #17

   Good advise.  Need to get my mind in gear on these things.

   Thanks for sharing.

   JP7

6. 
   soak | Sep 17, 2008 09:22pm | #13

   Just and idea but Veritas makes a low angle jointer plane. I don't have one but I have used one. It pushes way easier than my #8 in many situations and it is way cheaper than a LN (I think $265). By the time I paid for my #8 on ebay, worked the bottom flat and bought a new Hock blade I could have bought the low angle jointer. If I had been paying myself by the hour I could have bought 12" jointer/planer. In my experience most of the planes available on ebay need a lot of work. The Veritas does amazing well even in figured wood. I used one on birdseye maple and it was fine. Of course that LN #7 is a seriously nice plane.