Some have probably followed some of the previous discussion on the floor planking I propose. The wood in question is 4/4 Cherry.
I have decided to mill the edges and use concealed fasteners. Hopefully this allows the wood to move more without constraint, since the planks are pretty wide. Would there be any advantage to using screws in predrilled holes? This would seem to mitigate any squeaking and help me pull the planks tight together. I do not own a floor nailer.
What type of T&G should I create? Option A is a straight tongue and groove. Option B is a wedge style. What type is better for flooring applications? The wedge would closer resemble what is done on commercial flooring. Either way I will be handplaning a chamfer along the top edges.
I plan to create a temporary router table for this process, and use featherboards in both planes to keep the cuts consistent. I’ll see how the cherry machines, but I’m guessing I’ll need multiple passes with a 2-1/4 HP router.
Replies
Please describe the subfloor underneath. I posted to your previous thread. Cherry is a very soft wood for flooring as compared to other wood that can be applied.
If I had a good supply of cherry, I would make furniture with it, not flooring. What quality cherry is it? Not good enough for furniture? Jatoba or Brazilian cherry would be a much better choice for flooring.
If you are determined to use it as flooring, I would suggest that you seek advice from the folks @ Fine Homebuilding.com. Also 6 inch wide planks for hardwood flooring are at the "outside" in terms of width.
Shellac as a finish is, in my opinion, not an option for your application. It has it's place as a finish for furniture, but NOT for flooring.
Just my thoughts,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The sketch indicates the current proposed layers. The floor will be continously supported by foam and sleepers, and fastend at 16" o.c. I could run the sleepers perpendicular to the joists and make them a little closer, but I think the planks will look nicer oriented the long way in the room.
I am using this wood because it can be had cheaply. I like the look of old pine flooring that's all dinged up and 'well used'. We are going for a 200 year old look here...wide planks, plenty of cracks, knots, wormholes etc. 6" will be about the average width. I would appreciate any recommendations on the edge treatment and fastening.
Regarding finish, what can be had as cheaply or go on as easily as shellac? I am open to alternatives. The floor will not be sanded in place prior to finishing. The cherry will be left natural.
Very nicely done.
I would make sure the top layer is level between sheets of plywood. I'd use a string level x'd (if you will) across the diagnonals of the room. Perhaps use a 4 ft. level at the edges and make sure it doesn't "tip" between sheets as well.
One thing I don't know is what room are we talking about? This may have an effect on the finish that you apply, i.e. if there is a chance that it might get wet, or a spliied drink (recipe for problems if you're thinking of shellac). I've never heard of using it as a finish for a floor.
As I said in your other thread, I would use a sturdy finish no matter what, and shellac is not one of them.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's been a while (about 20 years) since I put an American cherry floor in the master bedroom of my prior house. A couple of things. Regular tongue and groove should work fine. It is a bit softer than most stuff but it does make a lovely floor. I'd suggest nailing with a flooring nailer. I put it in mostly by myself over a way too long time frame working part time. I used a borrowed manual Portanailer and It worked fine. If I was doing it today I'd use a pneumatic one. You could probably buy everything use it and then sell on ebay to recover some of your cost.
I would strongly encourage you to sand the floor in place. It will look infinitely better without the grooves.
I can't remember the name of the stuff I finished the floor with, but it was some sort of catalyzed water borne finish. Went on slightly milky but dried crystal clear. It held up well. I'm sure someone here or at a flooring place can suggest something similar.
I like the idea of how you plan to lay the floor. I like the width and the chamfer idea will give the look that you are seeking. I have some concerns after I looked at the drawing. If I'm looking at the drawing correctly you will be suspending the flooring between the sleepers, with the radiant tubes in the space between. I think you need another layer of t & g subfloor in order to have continous support under the flooring and a barrier to cause the heat to spread more evenly. As drawn you will have hotspots where the tubing is directly under the flooring. I think this flooring would look great with waterlox varnish on it. It will give you the mositure protection that the shellac lacks and it is easy to maintain and reapply.Ron
you might want to look into a product called "warm board" it is a 1-1/8" aluminum clad structural subfloor with channels precut for the pex. it should eliminate your subfllor and sleepers, reduce the overall thickness of your floor assembly, and go down more quickly...
remember that the hardwood flooring is an insulator and even with a heat reflective product serving to direct the heat you are going to have a higher load than you would on a conductive flooring material, so make sure you size/engineer your system appropriately...
Bumpity bump...straight or bevel? Screws?
KiddervilleAcres
You said exactly what I was thinking about cherry (a relatively soft wood) as a flooring material, and your alternatives were right on. As far as the finish is concerned, shellac is actually a classic finish for floors that will be regularly maintained with wax. On its own, it wears easily in high traffic areas. Since it is doubtful that someone intends to wax the floor as an on-going maintenance procedure, other more durable finishes would then come to mind.
6 inch cherry planks are dangerous in a floor application because they will most likely cup. The cherry that is harvested today is long, but the trees are not large around. This gives narrower boards that tend to have a grain configuration (with elements of the core still intact) that make the board prone to cupping. I would not exceed 3 inches if it was my decision. JL
Bob,
Shellac is the overlooked finish there is for floors.. what do you find objectionable about it?
It's harder than most flooring finishes. Unscratched by my 150 pound puppy who refuses to trim his toenails in spite of all the harping I do..
If he should somehow scratch the finish all he needs to do is get out a rag dampen it with some denatured alcohol rub for a few moments and scratch be gone.
It's way cheaper than other floor finishes $50.00 does about 500 sq ft. and that includes the brush or mop or weapon of choice..
I can do 500 sq.ft. in two hours and be putting the furniture back in place for company.. It's safe since most pills are coated with shellac and rumor has it drug companies don't like to be sued.
If in a decade or two or six you can still repair it with denatured alcohol and a rag if it's really in bad shape you wipe off what you don't like and reapply. The old will melt right into the new and make a seamless repair..
It goes on insanely quickly dries even faster and if you do as I've suggested darn near impossible to screw up or do poorly..
I can't dispute the repairability (If that is a word I can use) of shellac as a finish. You are absolutely correct in that assessment. As a homeowner, I might be concerned about the frequency of repair.
Depending on the utility of the floor in question. For example, if the floor is in a "mudroom" I would NEVER recommend shellac as a finiish as it relates to its ability to sustain abuse. If it is a "bedroom", where one wears slippers and is not exposed to outside elements, or perhaps a livingroom or den, then I might consider it as a viable finish.
My experience, although limited, has been in the commercial environment as it relates to hardwood flooring and I was simply trying to express my feelings to the OP as to the best overall finish to meet his/her needs.
Don't get me wrong, I've recently discovered the virtues of shellac as a finish material and I would go so far as to suggest it to anyone. It has a versatility that, in my opinion is unmatched! There's no other finish that can be used over & under quite like it.
But as a finish for flooring, I'm sorry it just doesn't cut the mustard with me. It's just my opinion, and you know, everybody has one!
By the way, I love your posts in here. Keeps the ol' ticker goin!
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob.
You are absolutely correct in that it is not a utility finish. However it's wearing properties are far better than I was lead to believe. When I first finished my floor I demanded that everybody remove their shoes and almost wanted them to tip toe. A few weeks later I noticed I walked on those same floors in my street shoes without a care.. I've already reported about my 150 pound puppy.
Yes it will wear but the repair is so easy I think I would rather refinish it than mop it<G> A kitchen is another one of those locations where reasonable people can disagree.. My wife wants marble so it's not an issue with me, but for that person who is going to use hardwood flooring in their kitchen I would think that Shellac would have a lot going for it.. Sure you'd have to quickly wipe up spills but so what, Shouldn't you anyway? I doubt it would stain any faster than most finishes would but spilt grape juice is gonna ruin anybodies wood no matter what the finish.
frenchy,
Points well taken. I will be remodeling a bedroom soon and plan on installing Whit Oak flooring. I'll give it a try.
Thanks,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I can't really recommend any wood in a bathroom.. No matter what the finish.. Too much wet floors, damp towels left laying around, water spilt from showers and baths..
I strongly suggest tile, marble or some other far more durable material than wood..
Maybe your family is a whole lot more carefull than mine (er,.. me <g.> ) (how do you do a sheepish grin?)
My concern with shellac: are you finishing the floor or creating a bomb? There was a professional that was killed in our area when the whole room went up in flames, and if memory serves me it was shellac since I had never heeard of it being used on floors. I like the idea of a water based finish. Something to consider anayway.
Pogo930
pogo930
Shellac uses denatured alcohol,, While denatured alcohol burns it evaporates so quickly that the burn danger is absolutely minimal. I've seldom ever seen anything that could remotely be considered "blowing up". Open windows and the fumes escape. (they are light and tend not to settle but float and quickly reach the point of insufficent to support combustion) IN addition alcohol quickly absorbs moisture in the air, on a humid day I dout you could get the fumes to burn with a flame thrower (I exagerate slightly)
There are other finishes which have far more dangerous gases such as lacquer thinner etc. Fumes from some of those could settle down around the water heater or furnace.. leading to the result you described.
all of the commercial hardwood i have put down is a straight toungue and groove, i'm not sure what you mean by a "wedge". cone
nailing the flooring is sufficint enough to prevent squeeks. screwing them down seems like a huge pain in the ####...you would have to have the screw at the proper angle and position to get enough bite on the board, countersink far enough so that it does not interfere with the next board, and not split the tongue off....
not to mention nailing down a hardwood floor is a tedious enough process, i think you might want to shoot yourself by the time you were done screwing it down.
rent a flooring nailer....
also why are you chamfering the top edge? the only reason that hte edge is chamfered (micro bevel is the term the most commonly use) on prefinished flooring is to account for minor thickness and milling variations since you are not sanding the floor flat after installation.
If you are making the floor you are going to have to finish it, why not rent a sander and sand the floor flat prior to finishing? you will have a much nicer floor (the little grooves only serve to collect dust and dirt) and it will do a far better job of hiding any milling of cutting mistakes.
or did you mean chamfer the edge of the tongue to help start the board? if so please disregard the above comments...
good luck whatever you decide to do, let us know how it turns out....
Right on, on all aspects. I worked for a commercial flooring company also and kind of got to know how it all comes together. Great post!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
toulumne
I wouldn't bother with a router table. It'll be just as fast if you run your router along the edge set on a pair of sawhorses.. , as you appraoch one saw horse slide the board past it and route Then slide it back and pick up the edge and continue to the second sawhorse.. sounds complicated but is real easy and fluid to do.. Use a guide bearing to control the depth of the cut.. or you can use a guide clamped to the board.
You should be able to do the groove part in abut a minute per board (assuming 8 foot boards) and the tongue part in about three minutes. (these are just guesses your mileage may vary objects in the miorror are closer than they appear close cover before striking..
With cherry slow is a real problem. you need to go quickly in order to keep from burning it.. you might make a slower single pass to remove most of the wood and then a quick final buzz to clean up the burn marks..
Hello tuolumne,
Since you're installing this cherry over radiant heat, I assume that you've taken into consideration the maximum water temperature that should be running through the tubes--our installer recommended a maximum of 80º and that figure checked with the additional research that I did. I would give some consideration to coating both sides, top and bottom, of the flooring before installing it so that the wood movement will be minimized because of seasonal fluctuations. Shellac is a good finish. When it comes to repair and refurbishing, there is no better. A little denatured alcohol on a rag will usually fix the scratches. If more aggressive treatment is called for, just clean the floor and apply the new shellac right over the old. The new will partially dissolve the old finish and you will still have what is essentially one layer of finish. Because the solvent for shellac is alcohol, you will probably want to apply the finish when you can open up the room to outside air for ventilation. If you're looking to keep a more natural look, you might want to consider a super-blonde de-waxed shellac to acquire as close to a water-white finish that you can. By using a de-waxed shellac, you can apply another type finish over the shellac without removing it if you aren't satisfied with the wear qualities.
Good luck
stumper,
I'm curious why you'd limit rdiant heat temps to 80 degrees. Wood needs 1500 degree to burst into flame <G> and normal around here is an inlet temp of around 130degrees with an outlet temp around 110 degrees or so.
Wood floors shrink based on moisture not temps so in the winter the floor will open up and close during the summer if installed properly. (metal on the other hand shrinks and swells based on temps and not moisture.)
Heating a floor with radiant heating will make it warmer than it would probably ever get with any other heating system and the higher a wood's temperature, and the air immediately above it, the lower the woods moisture content will be. A wood floor over radiant will become exceptionally dry, aggravating the usual wood movement problems common to all wood floors.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
JohnWW
So on those 100 degree days with 90% humidity the floor is drier than on those 80 degree days with 98% humidity?
Wood is hydrogyscopic.. It absorbs moisture. If the air is dry the wood will be dry. If it's moist the wood will also be moisture. It's temp has little to do with it.. not at the temps we are speaking about..
The relative humidity of the air immediately surrounding the wood will be low when the wood is heated by radient heat. (That's how radient heat works). When you heat air you automatically lower its relative humidity so the termerature really is the significant factor, at least in closed systems where the amount of absolute moisture doesn't change.
Frenchy
You are an argumentative soul, so I will add a bit of fuel to the fire. Do you really think that anybody will be heating the house in the hot summer weather you were describing? You take the SW corner of the ring and I will be in the NE corner...meet you in the center! :-) JL
Is someone going to get shellaced? How much are ringside seats?
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
...with unwaxed blond and super speed drying due to the in-floor radiant heating system. Everyone on the forum always has a ringside seat, but there is NEVER any violence , only fair fun. :-) JL
I know, I know. Just trying to get frenchy going, he he.
As if he needs any prodding........ He certainly enjoys a good shellacing!
Loce you guys posts! Entertaining, thought provoking and very informative,
Best Regards to ALL,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It is a nasty job Bob, but somebody has to do it. :-) JL
Ya, and I thought he was a real Frenchy, from Quebec!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
His roots may well have been in French Canada. There was a low point in our Canadian history when the British (hear this all you Brits on this forum) expelled the French from Acadia, so that they could steal their land (they called it expropriation). Many of the Acadians settled in the now eastern United States, and many others made it as far as Louisiana.
As an aside to this brief and incomplete history tidbit, there were many French who were settled at this time on the North shore of the St Lawrence, in the area of the Mingin archipelago. They sent a group of representatives to England to ask the 'royal' of the time to stop the travesty that was happening in Acadia. The 'royal' regally refused and our brave contingent returned home with the bad news. From that point on, the letter "R" and the sound that it makes, has been removed from the language of the North shore in that area of Quebec, as a protest to the inhumanity demonstrated by the 'royal' and the English towards the French in Canada. This language quirk exists to this day. Not surprisingly, there are many negative feelings towards the English in French Canada today, deeply ingrained, over this and many other historical and modern day issues. (not much to do with woodwork, but the devil made me do it) JL
Thank you for a most informative post. I too am of French descent. My forefathers came to Canada from Normandy and the family spread into New Hampshire where I now reside.
I have a camp on a lake that is split between The States and Canada. My camp is on the Canadian side and we travel throughout QC frequently.
I hope frenchy wasn't offended by my post.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
This raises a question in my mind. With a lake that has a shore in both of our great countries, does this mean you can boat to your camp and back into the USA without going through a border check point? JL
In years past that sort of thing was commonplace. The customs folks all knew a lot of people used to do just that, sometimes even for picnics and the likes.
I remember one such occasion when my parents and I were visiting friends on the American side, as it's referred to. My father was cooking chicken on the rotisserie bcak in Canada. He and the host kept an eye on things through a telescope! When nearly done, we all hopped into the boats to return for the cookout in Canada!
Although it is still done today, with recent events in the world, this kind of activity takes place much less often. Last year we were able to notify customs about our intended excursions, and that was OK. I suspect that this will no longer be allowed, perhaps as soon as this year.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
...a sad sign of the times. JL
Jeanlou,
Actaully my great grandfather came ashore from Germany sometime around the civil war. To dodge the conscription going on at that time he migrated to Canada and later came down to Wisconson to be a lumberjack. (he's part of the reason Wisconsin no longer has those acres of forest she once was blessed with)
So technically he's a double wetback. Or as they say today, undocumented alien..
Take heart Frenchy. Even though you are not French, (by the way, what is the 1% that is not German?), I just called the powers that be and they have given me the authorization to bestow an honourary Frenchman designation upon you. The papers are in the mail.
Bienvenue monsieur Frenchy. Vous pouvez maintenant nous parler en français. (Welcome Mr Frenchy. Now you may speak with us in French.) :-) JL
PS I learned my trade in a German cabinet shop (I spent 12 years there before changing shops). Does that make me an honourary German? Danke.
jeanlou,
I took French in high school, French in college even some post grad courses, but weeks afterwards I can't even say, Merci!
As to bestowing honorary German citizenship on you I believe I am in a somewhat unique position. MY Grandmother was High German, Prussian in fact and a cousin (or some such thing) to Kaiser Wilhelm. If she did not forfeit her rights and privileges when she married a lowland German (my Grandfather) I hereby grant you Honorary citizenship as a kraut.
It goes Deutscheland Deutscheland Uber Allis,.....
<G>
Frenchy,
With a lineage like that, there must be a German castle somewhere with your name on it that needs a little renovation. Imagine the timber framing and wood flooring you could install there! I am sure that white oak and walnut would do, with a floor or two in cherry, to keep all the guys and gals on this forum happy while they tell you it is too soft for flooring. :-) Take care buddy. JL
Edited 1/31/2007 4:37 pm ET by jeanlou
Hi frenchy,
I'm curious. With all your experience using shellac, have you ever done a French Polish finish? I'm not trying to bate you here.
I have just recently introduced myself to the shellac as a finish material. Since reading several of your posts, I've tried it both over and under several different "in between" finishes and am absolutely impressed. I want to attempt it with a piece that I'm designing for my wife.
As an aside, I am almost finished with a turned and partially carved Maltese Cross handle for a woodstove for a friend of mine, and it's coming out GREAT!. I applied a dewaxed coat of shellac as a sealer coat first. At this point in the finishing process, I have 3 coats of Tung oil, sanded lightly between coats with progressively finer sheets of sandpaper, from 320 to 600 at this point. I'm probably overdoing it here, but I want it to look right.
I'm now ready to apply the finish layers of shellac. Do you have any suggestions?
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I french polished one thing in my life and swore to never attempt it again!
My arms quickly turned to rubber, and if I stopped it seemed that I had to start all over again.. I just don't seem to know how to stop midway and still get the desired look.
MY experiance with Tung oil led to my discovery of shellac.. tung oil looks pretty good for the first year or so and then seems to deteriorate.. I mean not overnight sort of thing but hmmmm, isn't it dull sort of thought seems to creep in. I'd better dust it better! Oh it wasn't dusty at all just dull..
I must admit I went too far the other way and bought polyurethanes..
I still have the shiney plastic look on all my doors. Striping the doors isn't gonna happen soon so I'll live with them..
I know that if you put a lot of effort into sanding shellac once it's applied you just won't be sorry. It sands so much easier than any other finish and really responds to attention..
I don't have any experiance putting shellac over tung oil but frankly I'd make a little test piece and then slop some shellac on to see..
Bob
Since Frenchy's arms are too tired, :-), I will give you this link to investigate. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FrenchPolish.htm
It gives a pretty good idea of what French polishing is all about and how to do it. I have done it in the past, and it is a very manual process. Once done, the results are breathtaking. The trade off of time vs results - is it worth it, especially with the more modern techniques and materials available today? It is for the person doing the polishing to decide.
It is definitely worth doing at least once, and, if you are bitten by it, you will surely do it again, because the results are really incredible. There is nothing quite like the depth of a French polish finish and the warmth that it exudes. It is also true hand work, for those looking to eliminate one more thing mechanical in the manufacturing process. JL
Thanks jeanlou. Looka like I've got some bedtime reading for tonight, and perhaps several more. :-) :-).
Thanks again,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Keep in mind that the article is directed at violin makers, but it is a real step by step approach. If you do an internet search on French polishing furniture, you will surely find a short cut approach. Enjoy. JL
Hi jeanlou,
No, I don't want a shortcut approach.
There are some things that just don't warrant shortcuts, and a French Polish is one of them. Thanks for your help.
I know it will take time for me to get it right, but that's what I have, I hope!
I've designed a new piece of furniture for my wife. If I attempt a French Polish on the top, do I need to French Polish the whole piece?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
Not knowing what it is, I will say that if it is a table ot any other piece that has a separate top that overlaps the rest of the piece below, then yes, you can French polish only the top and edges. Everything below can be a worked shellac finish, like Frenchy and others have talked about often on this forum. Do a search on shellac finished on Knots, and you will have all the info you will ever need and more.
If the piece you are building has a top that does not overlap, I would say you are out of luck, and doing only the top will look strange. As it is, once you get the top done you may want to finish the rest of the piece in the same way anyway. If not, then you will know what it is you need to approach in look. Enjoy your project. JL
Bob,
I did cheat once and semi French polished a turned piece on my lathe. I just held the rag and found that was vastly easier than the required brisk arm work..
I'm sure the purists will cast stones at me for daring to call it French polish, but as the french say, such is life! <G>
(told you I can't speak french worth a darn and with my dyslexia I darn sure can't leave it to spell check to correct)
Frenchy
I would call that a 99% German polish...or if you like, an honourary Frenchman French polish. :-) (but it sounds like a try for turnings. How did it look when done? Probably not too shabby. Did you run the lathe at a slow speed? JL
jeanlou,
No I had it turned up to it's fastest speed. It Buffed right up, I think the pressure and heat is what makes french polishing work that's why whenever I stopped midway the results were so poor.. I never got enough heat into it..
Frenchy
You're right about the constant pressure and friction, but you do not need the heat created by a fast spinning lathe. In the polishing technique, you need to remove the pad from the work within the polishing motion, and not simply stop and then lift it off the work, other wise it sticks to the finish and makes a mess. Was the lathe-applied finish long lasting? JL
Jeanlou,
It's still shiny if that's what you're asking. well maybe not as shiny as it should be since the whole house is usully coated with dust from my projects.. <G>
Frenchy
That is the price of sawing and drilling and sanding and...in your house. :-) JL
Bob,
Not French, sorry 99% German. I think somebody snuck across the border and stole a French Name.
Frenchy,
You wrote, "Wood is hydrogyscopic.. It absorbs moisture"
Having had my spelling in this matter previously corrected, I will now correct yours.
Wood is h-y-g-r-o-s-c-o-p-i-c . . . it absorbs moisture from the air.
Rich
Tanxs Rich,
I accept the fact that my spelling is slightly worse than the average 2nd grader and will attempt to file the correct spelling away for future use..
However since I'm dyslexic and seldom spell the same word the same way twice in a row (consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds) You should see this before I do the proof readers trick of checking it backwords;-)
You could also check this site, The Wood Flooring Manufacturers Association"
: http://www.nofma.org/Publications/tabid/82/Default.aspx
They have two publications that might be of interest. Just "installing hardwood flooring" in the search box. The .pdf file is 1.5 mb, kinda big if you're on dial-up.
"finishing hardwood flooring" get's you another that is 1.38 mb.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's a fantastic link with a wealth of useful information! Thank you.
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