I have a great day job but really enjoy building fine furniture (for myself so far). I have been asked to build BOTH “built-ins” like bookshelves/desks and fine furniture for my friends. I have the time and interest but not a clue what to charge them. Both they and I want to approach this like a straight business deal and not a job for a brother-in-law. I produce professional results and I guess that’s what they like.
Can anyone please give me a couple of pointers? How about marking up materials and the consummables on the project?
Thanks,
Bob
Replies
A friend of mine marks up materials 15% and charges $35 an hour.
His cabinet work is first rate and he gets lots of referrals.
bob
I,ve been doing the kind of work you are talking about for over 20 yrs. The first thing you have to figure out is what your time is worth to you.
I live and work in the greater Boston area it cost a lot to live here and to work here so i charge $62.50 per man hour but i work very fast get a lot done in a day so my customers get what they pay for.
The hardest thing to do is to work for friends and family if you do you wont want to charge them what you think the job is worth and they will still think you charged them to much. But for a start up job to get your feet wet it is a good way to see how long it takes to build something and how much it really costs,
good luck WJL
I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole. Read around on hear and see what kinda things these guys get asked to do. Built my daughters house. saved her a bunch of money. heard from her once since the house was done.
If you don't care about your relationship have at it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Every time we lose a woodworker we lose a library
Bob,
This is a potential minefield, and I'm sure no one can answer what's right for you. But you might consider something I've done in the past - take your client/friend with you to buy the wood and have him pay for it. Get 50% more than what you think you will need. Do the work for free. Not only will they thank you for it, but you will not create a precedent for the future. No one expects you to work for free. Whatever wood is left over from the project is yours. Just for your own sake, write down your hours so as to have some data for future reference.
good luck. Clients come and go, don't let your family and friends go.
DR
Bob,
Few things to think about.
Schedule. Since you have a day job, you'll be working nights and weekends. Built ins require a lot of fitting and measureing on site. Will they mind you being there in the evenings? Are you willing to give up all your weekends until the job is done? Will they be upset if you run long. I sometimes do jobs for my friends. They give way out due dates. For example, "Do you think you could put crown up before Christmas?" It was January when she asked. About October I got started. Finished before Christmas.
If you earn $25 per hour at your day job then what is your weekend time worth to you. is it more valuble? If your job pays you time and a half for overtime, is this enough?
I wouldn't mark up the material. Especially if your paying retail. If you want charge them for your gas to pick up the material.
The bottom line is. If they are good friends then consider doing for free and the goodwill that will come with that. I get a nice dinner about once a week from my friends. I like being around them so it's a big plus. If you do it for money then they are you client and write it all out ahead of time. Have a contract, and a due date.
One more thing. If you do it for free have a clear understanding that if others come over and admire your work, you don't work for free.
Enjoy.
I figure how long its going to take to build (Time) what the materials cost and how much material it will take (material) plus 10-15 % then add profit.
I dont work for wages on projects like that.
If I did I would just work a days OT at my reg job...
Beware though..If ya ask what your worth you might lose a friend..if you dont then he might lose a friend (you). Its a touchy situation anyway you look at it.
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
The problem that you have by charging an hourly rate is that you are not a professional cabinet maker. What takes a pro 20 hours to build may take you 30 or more. This is not a shot at your skill level which I have no idea about, just someting to add.
Before this is ever started, make sure that the price is agreed on. Keep it on the lower side and use this experience to help you in the future gage prices you should charge.
Bear
Hi Bear ,
I think you have offered up very sound advice . I agree in this case Bob should not charge by the hour for the reasons you mentioned . Coming up with a reasonable or realistic price for the particular job and sticking to it regardless of the time it may actually require to build it . Once seasoned and more experienced at charging and doing projects then perhaps an hourly wage can be used as a guideline . I personally work by bid and try never to work by hourly wage . some folks here in Oregon balk a bit when they find out how much we may value each hour of our time . When it comes to family or friends , I either charge them full price or do it for free . Anything between those two figures can lead to problems and possibly as has been stated loss of a close friend or strained family relations . Bob should get paid the same amount for producing a piece of work as good as any professional would , even though it may take more time , if the results are true quality then the price should be in line with reality .Just to put things in prospective find out how much a homeowner has to pay almost any sub to come out to the job , you will find most likely a range from $35 - $ 75 per hour as a fairly standard wage for professionals in different trades . Why should we charge less then the plumber or electrician or finish carpenter ?
dusty
Hey Bob,
Made furniture for friends once and charged them - even though it was recycled timber. Still feel guilty about it years later. Friends and family should pay only for materials...
Cheers
"... Friends and family should pay only for materials..."
Friends and family should pay the same as they would have to pay anyone else. I'll provide an estimate of the total cost based on how much time I think I should spend on a project. If I take longer, that's my problem and I'll take the hit. If they want Walmart prices, they can go to Walmart.
That may sound tough, but you can get screwed by a friend if you don't watch your back. That doesn't mean you can't barter for the goods, but then it depends on what they have to offer. I haven't lost a friend yet by telling them how much something will cost.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
<That may sound tough, but you can get screwed by a friend if you don't watch your back. >
Its a sad day when one's own friends will screw you...
"Its a sad day when one's own friends will screw you..."
Unfortunately, it happens all day long, every day in the REAL world! Thing is, they don't realize what they're doing sometimes. They don't mind paying the person at the store for something, but they think you, as a 'friend' should be willing to work for nothing. Again, barter is one thing -- something for nothing is an entirely different story.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I'm a retired geologist with a great workshop and lots of timber and make stand alone furniture (not built-in's). I've been working "professionally" - doing commissions for about 6 months. Mostly I've been undercharging, as I've been unsure how long some jobs actually take. But recently I billed someone for 2 pieces they'd ordered using actual hours worked (at Australian $40/hour). I think they had sticker shock. I had put a cost estimate on my design drawing - but they hadn't registered. So, from now on, I'm going to be very careful to fully discuss cost estimates or agree to a quote price, before starting a project. As long as everyone understands how much something will cost, hopefully you'll be OK? (In Australia cabinet / furniture makers charge around $40 per hour).
"Friends and family should pay only for materials"
Between my wife & I there are 4 grandparents, 4 parents, 14 brothers & sisters, 57 nieces & nephews & and a large number of friends.
I started out doing that. I had gobbs of work, but I could not pay my bills. Them I woke up. I do not do alot of work for my family anymore, but I can pay my bills.
Since this is your first go at this, whatever you charge now will be immaterial once the job is done.
The most important aspect and lesson from this is keeping a detailed log of exactly how long it takes to complete each step of the job, including estimating,drawing plans,cutlist, buying materials, fabrication, finishing, and installation.
Once all these are known quantities, the real value of this job becomes self-evident.
"Anything is possible with a big enough expense account."
Hunter S. Thompson
Bob--
On casework that is mostly made of plywood--ie builtins and bookshelves, I typically charge 2 1/2 times my materials cost. The exception being on very intricate things, like complex moldings and heavily shaped pieces.
On freestanding pieces, I would take about 20% profit on the materials and charge $45/man hour--INCLUDING design and consultation time. Don't forget, that just because you might not be making sawdust, taht doesn't mean you aren't working.
At the end of the project, I will look at my hours, and if they don't seem reasonable, I may do some adjusting in the client's favor, or I may throw in a small bowl or something made from some of the offcuts.
By the way, I have had some really bad experiences working for family and friends, but I have many past clients who I consider friends...
Good luck.
Peter
jpswoodworking.com
Do yourself a favor and just charge for materials.Work on it at your own pace and when it done its done hand it over and say enjoy. While I agree that it would be nice to get paid for your work, it is not worth the aggravation or hard feeling afterward. If payment is insisted then have whoever buy you dinner or tool or wood or some other gift at what they think the job is worth then everyone is happy. If you want to get all kind of aggravated stay at work you will more then likely make more money. Look at it this way if you do a job for materials only you get the pleasure of doing a project that don't cost you anything. That is kind of the point ain't it?
Since its friends/family - perhaps you can workout a trade.Do they own a summer home you could borrow for a week...Perhaps they can offer you something of value that does not have the pressure of money...Just a thought,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Seems to be a bit of a thread here as to what to do for jobs for friends and family. I do pretty much the same thing as several have said.
I have my friend/family member purchase the material and then I do the work for nothing, with the understanding that I work on my schedule. If they want to put a deadline on it, I tell them I don't have the time to do the job and they better get someone else; PERIOD, NO EXCEPTIONS! My free time is too valuable to me.
Bob,
I also do work for folks I know well. Sometimes I charge a discounted rate, or work for material cost. Quite often I ask these folks to pay my overhead cost. This way at least I don't loose money working for them. Even with my shop in my home, I still have to replace/repair/sharpen tools, utility costs, garbage removal, etc.. For me that overhead rate is about $5/hr.
If they pay my overhead rate, I'm still working for free. Otherwise I'm losing $5/hr.
GRW
Listen to 8Quarter.
And FWIW, $35 an hour is not a figure to shoot for. That's what you get when a job totally goes into the ditch.
Edited 4/1/2005 12:55 pm ET by cstan
Thanks guys.
I am mightily impressed with the depth of experience and wisdom that I have read herein. I am definitely going to start building fine furniture "on the side" and selling it as I make it. The built-ins are a bigger challenge because of lots of time in the "clients" home or office. Eventhough my shop ain't much to look at - I am King of my Shop and work when I feel like it. Half the time I take a break just to figure out what I'm going to do next or to dig out a book, article or magazine that will show me how to do something. I like to think about it three times, measure twice, and cut once.
If I could make money at it I'd quit my day job and just build furniture. But I'm not doing that becaue I can't -- plain and simple. The day may come though. Sooner than later.
I am planning on just bidding each project. Not working by the hour. That way I can make adjustments for how much of the job I choose to do FREE and I can also sleep at night with a clear conscience. If I slack off or can't produce on time, then I'm not going to pass that thru. It's my responsibily. I'm not into "getting rich" by building furniture. But 5 generations of my kids from now, they may just say that the old man knew how to work cherry.
God bless each and every one of you.
Bob
Business needs profit like a body needs rest and sleep. It's in reserve so that you can get yourself through a few late nights of work.
Business needs cashflow like lungs need oxygen. If you stop breathing, you're dead.
Pricing work as an amateur for family and friends places you in an awkward situation.
You don't really need the money, but it would be handy to fund your hobby. And the customer can always buy something similarly usable elsewhere reasonably cheaply, so why be greedy?
I don't really build furniture for fun anymore, although I do love a challenge. I just happen to be in the business of making money by being a furniture designer and maker, and nowadays I mainly teach other people how to design and make furniture, so I've got a decent wage coming in at the end of every month.
I'm in the position of being a professional furniture maker that doesn't need to scratch around to make a penny to pay the rent, etc..
Funnily enough I charge full business like prices to all clients still.
There are lots of full-time furniture makers trying to make a living.
Every time an amateur does the job for materials only or for the cost of a meal, a business person (furniture designer/maker) that really needs the work gets hurt.
Every time an amateur does a difficult and complex job for a few pennies it reduces the expectations and perception of value that people have of woodworkers of all stripes.
It's worth thinking about anyway. Slainte.
RJFurniture
"Every time an amateur does the job for materials only or for the cost of a meal, a business person (furniture designer/maker) that really needs the work gets hurt.
Every time an amateur does a difficult and complex job for a few pennies it reduces the expectations and perception of value that people have of woodworkers of all stripes.
It's worth thinking about anyway. Slainte."
Your best post. Ever.
If you are considering building furniture on the side and charging for it, then I would suggest that you buy the book "The Woodworker's Guide to Pricing Your Work" by Dan Ramsey. It covers a lot of practical questions and gives some good insight into what you need to think about when pricing. When starting out, it is very easy to underprice an item. 2 years ago I made the jump from doing it on the side to going full time. Jobs that I used to do on the side 2 years ago, I wouldn't do now unless I was adding zero's to the end of the price. As for working for friends, I do it all the time. That is what really kick started my business. When I deal with friends, and I mean friends, not associates, I bid full price and than discount depending on the piece. Sometimes the discount is 10% sometimes its 5%, but the discount is kept between my friend and myself. In return for the discount, I ask that they refer me to some of their friends, so actually for my 5% discount I am paying a sales commission. As of yet, I have not advertised my business and almost every friends job that I have done, has provided a referal to a full paying job. Also, I would read Slainte's post, think about it then reread 4 more times. I couldn't agree with him more. My main competition is the other guy that they know who will do the job for the price of materials and a case of beer. Granted the beer sounds nice, but it doesn't pay my bills.
Eric
Well said.
There are things that I would like to be doing, but that I avoid because too many people work practically for free. So I do some of the things that I don't like quite as well, but that provide the income I need. At least it's still woodworking (mostly). I'm just glad I could develop the skills to do the things that DO make some money. Starvation gets old pretty fast.
Michael R
In a free market the value of your goods is the price someone is willing to pay.
Anyway, with the billions in furniture of all stripes sold each year I don't think a few amateurs working in their garage for three months on an entertainment unit are going to hurt your bottom line.
AE
I don't think a few amateurs working in their garage for three months on an entertainment unit are going to hurt your bottom line.
AE, have you ever successfully made a living at doing custom woodwork of any kind?
You have at least three very experienced and reasonably successful custom woodworkers here, along with one who is learning fast, who would strongly disagree with you. (I am taking the liberty of including myself.)
Our competition is not the furniture stores; our market is the people who want something that isn't in the stores, and are willing and able to pay for it.
Every woodworker who does decent work for slave wages (or less) has a negative influence on the perceived value of our work, thus reducing the amount people are willing to pay for it. Good business people can overcome that factor, but each person who gives his work away to anyone besides family and close friends does indeed make it harder.
Michael R
your so right
Good, then maybe the pros here ought to quit helping the amateurs when they get in over their heads.
Richard - no more explanations about the proportions of a well-designed cab leg and no more help with compound angle dovetails on hopper sides.
Let 'em buy a book and scratch their head while their "customer" waits impatiently.
ok now lets all feel bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not really in my nature to be ungenerous with the knowledge I've trained and worked for over the last thirty or so years though Charles.
I guess I'll continue to give a leg up when the mood takes me and where I can to those that don't yet know how to do furniture making things.
I think a fair solution for amateurs who want to build furniture for friends and family at a reasonable rate would be to mark up their material costs by at least 25% which would cover the cost of transport and go some way to maintaining their machinery and paying things like heating and lighting.
Secondly, as the work has to be done during the workers free time (when he or she could be in the pub, watching TV, going to the beach, having a bit of nookie, etc.) a good rate to charge would be whatever they earn per hour in their normal job X 1.5-- and make an adjustment or two from there to compensate for their relative lack of experience, their ability and their speed.
True, most amateurs work a lot slower than I work, but that sort of figure would get them roughly in the right area and it probably wouldn't be ripping anyone off.
Most people can work out their hourly rate easily enough. If they're paid per hour then it's easy. If they earn a yearly salary then simply divide their salary by 2,080 hrs which yields the nominal hourly rate. Slainte.RJFurniture
Does that mean you should never help a friend? Won't going over to help them move a couch potentially decrease a movers livelihood. I worked for my Dad's plumbing company for years growing up and use that experience to help out friends all the time. It never feels like a bad thing to do. It seems sad to me to think that if I help out a friend I'm doing something bad.Just a thought...Dave
Dave, I'm not really saying that. How long does it take to move a sofa, the example you gave, or maybe a days plumbing work?
Bobs original question referred to putting his furniture making efforts on something akin to a business like footing, even though he has a decent income coming in from other sources. He's trying to find a way to charge for his work that's fair to him and to his 'customer' friends and family.
I've suggested one possible approach in my previous post, the one immediately before yours, and others have suggested other approaches. Bob indicates he's been asked to do both free standing work and built in items.
The question is, how long does it take to design and build a built-in item? Let's take a simple job for example.
Measure the job, design work, and costing- 1 X 8 hr. day plus vehicle costs.
Collect materials-- 1/2 to 1 day, plus vehicle costs.
Build the thing-- let's say something simple in plywood built off site in the workshop. Generate the rod. Build the plinth. Assemble the carcases. Lip the edges and trim the lip overhang. Cut, lip and position the shelves. Line bore for shelf pins. Build a cornice of some sort. Test fit. Disassemble. 5 days + wear and tear on equipment + heating and lighting of workshop.
Stain, dye, polish or paint the thing. 2 days + wear and tear on kit and heating lighting again.
Delivery and installation. 2 days + vehicle costs and a kit of tools on hand.
Oops. All of a sudden you've got near enough 11 days work involved in this simple wee job, and a load of expenses.
I dunno, even as amateur I wouldn't mind getting some recompense for this sort of time because 11 days work might easily translate into five or more solid weeks of weekends and nights on top of a day job.
Anyway, who am I to talk? I give away furniture making information and furniture business experience to fellow woodworkers for free on forums like this and don't make a penny from it, ha, ha.
But on the other hand it only takes me five to twenty minutes to bash out a response to most questions and I don't mind that-- it's a useful diversion from the work I'm in the middle of right now which happens to be organising a set of furniture business accounts and tidying up a couple of articles for publication. Slainte.RJFurniture
Knowing what I know now, after 25 years in the business of custom fabrication, if I wanted to get a "good price" on a custom piece, I'd call around and find a young person just starting out. He/she will work like a dog on my piece, deliver it on time, and it'll be priced way lower then it ought to. How do I know this? Because I was once one of those youngsters. And now that I'm older I get cold calls all the time from folks looking for that deal. What Sgian said about taking a job from a professional is so true. It wouldn't matter a nit if we were talking about mass produced furniture, but we're not. We are dealing with the truly custom end of the market and it's a very small one. Doing work for friends is a bit different then for learning while working for others. When I started, I made some work for good friends who paid only for materials. But they never asked me to make them anything, I proposed it to them knowing that they were needing a particular piece of furniture. They got a good deal, I got experience that I needed, and our friendship was enhanced. I have always hated the money side of being in business. I deal with it, but would just as soon not. If I could I'd make more things for friends and give them away, not requested things, but gifts.Jeff
I won't be so hard on you. Anyway I understand your point, to a point. I greatly admire your work and was wondering what you thought about this. I'm an amateur and am going to be building a garage area for a very good friend (who helps me all the time). It consists of a workbench and a couple cabinets, not a huge deal. I was going to charge materials plus 20% (for wear and tear) and when she offers to pay me a good amount for time(which she will) I was going to tell her to get me a gift certificate to LeeValley or some similar place for whatever she thought was fair. Does this sound reasonable to you? I'll get my expenses covered and some compensation for time. I just thought I'd put this out there as another possible idea/payment solution.
-Art K.
Art, the barter system has its merits, so long as everyone gets fair value out of it. The scenario you outlined seems like it's fair.
The question is, are both participants happy with the arrangement? If the answer is yes, it's fair. Slainte.RJFurniture
> Every time an amateur does the job for materials only or for the
> cost of a meal, a business person (furniture designer/maker) that
> really needs the work gets hurt.
>
> Every time an amateur does a difficult and complex job for a few
> pennies it reduces the expectations and perception of value that
> people have of woodworkers of all stripes.If the person you're working for would have gone out and paid full price for a professional to do the job... yes, working for a lowball price was probably harmful to someone else, and the person who did the work probably lost out too.If the customer wouldn't have paid that full price and would have instead gone to the cheap furniture store and purchased mdf and textured faux finish instead, I don't necessarily agree. The higher quality piece that the hobby worker made may be the item that makes them look for something better next time.The friend or relative may have the feeling that the person doing the work is the entire reason to have wanted the piece. Making something as a partial or whole gift to a friend needn't have robbed a stranger, I hope.If the potential customer paid full price to a weekend hobby worker, hasn't the professional still lost the same piece of work and suffered just the same?I haven't actually done work for anyone else except as a gift, so it's all kind of theoretical for me. But I have considered it ... I can't stretch my budget to cover enough materials to be as busy in my shop as I'd like to be, so working for a friend or neighbor with all material and tool costs covered has had a certain appeal. But I don't like the idea that I'd be harming others by doing so.
Sgian,
You wrote this:
"Every time an amateur does the job for materials only or for the cost of a meal, a business person (furniture designer/maker) that really needs the work gets hurt."You need to think about the market you're in. Where I live, the housing market is white hot. Everyone is fixing up and improving their homes and having furniture built for their newly renovated spaces. And these homeowners cannot find enough people to do the work. That's why I'm getting calls.I tell everyone up front that I'm semi-professional, and I'm clear about my experience. I show them pictures of my work, let them call previous clients, and they decide they want to hire me. More and more, I hear people say things like, "Well, no one else will even call me back," or "X Company wanted to charge me $$ amount," which is clearly an astronomical price just to get rid of the job. For example, someone called me recently and said that a local woodworker quoted them $5,000 for two simple bookcases each about 40" wide and 70" high on either side of a fireplace. Clearly, that woodworker did not want the job. Other woodworkers did not even return this client's phone calls. So I got the job, and I wasn't taking the food out of anyone's mouth! A similar thing happened with another person who wanted a bathroom vanity, and again with someone else who wanted a simple kitchen table.Even though I am a semi-professional, I have come to learn that my work is as good as, or better than, many full-time professionals. I've been looking more closely at some of the projects full-timers do, and I'm sorry to report that I see lots of shabby work, done by lazy, full-time woodworkers for high prices. That harms the woodworking trade a lot more than semi-professionals doing their best work at a decent rate. So I don't believe I'm harming the trade or the tradespeople by doing what I do.However, if I lived in a different market, where woodworkers were struggling for work, I would stick to my day job.
Edited 4/5/2005 10:30 am ET by Matthew Schenker
I believe that your view would change dramatically once you dropped the "semi" from semi-professional woodworker.
The issue, at its core, has nothing to do with the level of craftsmanship one is able to muster.
I also think that Richard was not speaking about the market for slam-bam bookcase and vanity work, though don't take that the wrong way. Work is work.
High-end residential work is well represented in the magazine Custom Woodworking Business. It's free to those in the trade. Once you see what is in the mag, you'll get a better perspective of why the other guys didn't want the work you took on, or at least why they bid the price that they did. Guys doing high five figure and six figure kitchens can obviously do the work, but you're going to have to pay for the expertise and the kind of operation they run. If you've never seen the shop of a bona fide high-end residential and commercial cabinet shop you owe yourself the pleasure. Check out CWB and you'll see what I mean.
FWIW, the $5,000 bid sounded about right for a busy pro shop. While I'm sure your work is outstanding, there are a lot of homeowners who have been bitterly disappointed by not going to a professional shop for what we may all believe to be a "simple" job.
Edited 4/5/2005 11:08 am ET by cstan
Edited 4/5/2005 11:18 am ET by cstan
cstan,
Just to be clear, I know my limitations. If someone asked me to do something that was over my head, I would be very happy to say I can't do it and send them back into the market for a full-time professional. My rule is, it has to be a project that I can do by myself. That eliminates large kicthen-cabinet projects, for example.You're right. I'm only competing with professionals on simpler projects. On that fireplace bookcase project, I spent about $450 in materials/supplies/gas and it took me 35 hour to complete it, including drafting time. I charged $1,775 total for the project. The client was thrilled, but I thought my price was a little high! It came to about $38/hr, after deducting materials. In the end, I am positive that my work is every bit as good as anyone else would have done, even for $5,000.If I had charged $5,000, I would have made $130/hr, after deducting materials. If that's a fair rate, I should in fact drop the "semi" from my title -- that's about four times the salary of my day job!But like you said, I'm not competing on projects above and beyond a relatively simple level, which I would not get involved with.
Edited 4/5/2005 11:24 am ET by Matthew Schenker
$130 an hour is about right.
Owners of big custom shops are far from 'blue collar.' A lot of them have very, very significant net worth and it's well deserved.
Most of them aren't worried about the ankle-biters, but assuming you wanted to become a full-time professional you would go broke with the numbers you've posted.
Trust me, you would go flat broke. And if you didn't, you'd never progress much further than plain-vanilla commissions. You'd most likely never get into really juicy design work and difficult projects because your rates would never support this kind of significant work.
The problem with guys who do want to go pro - that have the ability, the mindset, and the drive is that they do have to wade through the ankle biters giving their work away - especially in the market for the stuff you just built.
It boils down to the difference in the mindset of the guy who is thrilled with $40K a year vs. the guy who is not.
Custom woodworking need not be a one-way ticket to the poor house.
What Richard may be saying, and what I am definitely saying, is let's quit giving this shi* away!
Edited 4/5/2005 11:44 am ET by cstan
cstan,
I think we are in agreement here. The professional shops deserve to be paid $130/hr, and I should not be competing with them. I'm not going to take a job that is better suited to a professional shop. I only end up getting those jobs that the pros don't really want (I'm an ankle-biter, as you put it).I understand what you're saying here. If I were to go professional, my rates would obviously go up, as I would have a tremendous amount of overhead to cover in shop costs, insurance, etc. Since I am only semi-professional, I don't deal with those things and I can just do a simple materials/hours calculation on jobs.The pros don't want the jobs that are worth too little. I'll take those, and I will do a good job. When someone comes to me with a job that's over my head, I will happily tell them they need to go to a professional shop. This way, everyone works at their proper level.
I don't think I've been clear - the pros DO want that kind of work but they want it on their terms. They want to be able to make a good living, have health insurance, own a life insurance policy, maybe a disability policy, put money away for a livable retirement. In short, they want to provide for themselves and their families.
What they provide the marketplace in return for a decent living is wherewithal - a staffed, professional, well-equipped operation that can deliver on a promise and whose work can be counted on. Conversely, the individual furnituremaker, while not a riskless transaction to those commissioning work, provides the utmost in woodworking - very high end reproductions and original work. Somebody like our own Rob Millard.
The 'tweeners don't provide much to the mix, maybe reasonably decent woodworking at a decent price if you can catch them when they have time to do a project and the project is within their technical capabilities.
You're safe. There are always cheap-shi* customers looking for the cheapest price they can find. Maybe there is satisfaction in being the low-cost provider, but for the life of me I don't know why. Your post is even more perplexing - you do great work AND you're the low-cost provider. I guess congratulations are in order. So, congratulations. I think you made around sixteen hundred bucks. Don't blow it all in one place.
If I ever need surgery, I think I'm going to find the guy who graduated last in his medical school class and works part-time.
Some folks here would LIKE to consider what we do a profession.
Edited 4/5/2005 2:09 pm ET by cstan
Charles, you seem to be suggesting that someone willing and able to produce a high-quality product for price $X should turn down the opportunity if he believes someone else is willing to produce the same product for price $Y, which is higher.
Do you think that's how capitalism works generally, or are you opposed to capitalism?
I think what you're describing is a medieval guild system. No value judgment there, just an observation.
There will always be people with low expectations who turn the capitalist model on its head - those consumers with low expectations and vendors with low aspirations.
There's no such thing as turning the capitalist model on its head in this sense. The capitalist model assumes every level of consumer and every level of producer.
I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were castigating low-cost producers whose work would "take away" from high-cost producers. That's a concept that has no place in capitalist theory - in fact, the theory hopes that low-cost producers will replace high-cost producers every minute of every day.
If you believe in capitalism you have to believe the market will sort all these things out, as Jackplane said. Again, that's not a value judgment. You're free not to believe in capitalism, or at least to be concerned with the pain inflicted as things sort themselves out.
What a great thread. It's really revealing to see how different perspectives are in this industry. I've been tuned in to mostly breaktime over the years (I am a carpenter) and have seen umpteen threads about business in that realm, but this one hits home too. I have done a lot of these kind of projects and have had to consider them from differing perspectives as well (some for friends, family, friends of friends, and from business clients relating to other work, etc.)My two cent input is that I've always charged for my work. One reason is that though in a perfect world I really would build things for my friends and family members at no charge but meanwhile my time is important; if I'm doing work, what I do for a living, I need to get paid so that I can keep my family happy and out of debt and so that I can do fun things with my time off.Another reason is that I never seem to get caught up around my own house, so why should I go to someone else's place and create their vision when I don't even have my own stuff done? (Yes, I know about helping out, charity, good neighborliness, etc. but that all has a limit based on common sense and courtesy).I really sympathize with the professionals (which I consider myself to be, though with respect to this type of work, I am far from the caliber many of you are) that it is hard to develop and keep a business clientale that appreciates and can afford the high quality work and I tend to agree a lot with Sgian's reasoning. In fact, I couldn't imagine someone in his position being MORE reasonable about it.That said, I have always encouraged others with dreams to enter a type of business they enjoy to jump in and give it a go. I hate to see people with talent waste it because they are too afraid. But I don't like to see it given away either.I have a lot of experience with artists (I have owned an art gallery for 20 years) and seen great talent that had no hope of making money at it along with tremendously lousy painters who make huge coin. I think it is somewhat a similar comparison to woodworking; there are a myriad of situations in between.
My underlying assumption, mentioned in my previous posts, is that woodworking is a profession no less valuable in the marketplace than attorneys, physicians, engineers, architects, accountants, actuaries, veterinarians, electricians, plumbers, fine finish carpenters, etc. I am also assuming that a profession can exist outside the requirement by the state to be licensed. Obviously, a poorly made hall table will not kill you, but I don't think that this invalidates the concept of a professional furnituremaker.
People don't always seek out the lowest cost provider and the marketplace does not always reward the lowest cost provider, especially when the good or service being provided requires a high level of education, skill, or both. You may think that this invalidates the capitalist model, but I think that it is its highest reward.
Obviously, pick up truck builders come and go and always will. Of course those things work themselves out. Lacking committment and the requisite skills, they fail on complex projects or cannot meet reasonable deadlines. But one leaves the marketplace only to be replaced by another.
Did O.J. hire a team of public defenders or somebody fresh out of law school? If you needed electrical work done in your home would you find the cheapest and least professional electrician you could find? Is your family's safety important to you? Whom would you rather perform your heart surgery - somebody who received a medical degree on the island of Grenada or a physician trained under DeBakey & Cooley and graduated from Johns Hopkins? If you were diagnosed with cancer would you leave to be treated in Nigeria or does Memorial Sloan Kettering or M.D. Anderson in Houston sound better to you?
All this may seem silly when applied to plywood bookcases, but it goes to Richard's original point about perceived value and about furnituremaking as a profession in general. Of course, if you believe that being a committed woodworking professional brings nothing to the table, adds nothing to the marketplace for these kinds of goods, then we have a disagreement that we won't be able to resolve.
Edited 4/6/2005 8:39 am ET by cstan
"Of course, if you believe that being a committed woodworking professional brings nothing to the table, adds nothing to the marketplace for these kinds of goods, then we have a disagreement that we won't be able to resolve."
Nothing of the sort, of course. You're confusing the term "low cost producer" with the term "low quality producer." Those terms are very, very different (in the 1970s the American automobile industry proved that you can be the lower-quality, higher-cost producer in a given market). If you re-read my posts while understanding the difference between the two terms, you'll either agree with me or decide you don't like capitalism after all.
Have you read Ayn Rand?
Yes, I read Ayn Rand when I was in High School and thought she was really cool. I gave a presentation to my English class on The Fountainhead in which I advocated her position with great passion.
Since then, I've come to understand that Ayn Rand's philosophy, like other trendy philosophies, represents at best one aspect of a very complicated world, and that adults who idolize her are doing so principally as a way to escape or avoid the complexities of life in that world.
Mark, your quaintness is what makes you so likable.
Thank you. I think I'm going to frame that and hang it on my wall.
cstan,
It's interesting you mention Ayn Rand. At one time, I was enthralled by her work and thought she gave me all kinds of fuel for certainty in my beliefs. There is a brand to Rand's work that gives you a platform to shout and beat your chest, but her ideas do not guide you in the long term the way writers like Lewis Thomas, Michael de Montaigne, and Rachel Carson do.It's funny, because the person I did those kitchen built-ins for (the social worker) is a serious pot-head. On Fridays, I would be working over there and she would come home and she and her boyfriend (who used to be in a rock band and now works in an adult-video store) would be getting high in the next room. It made for entertaining conversations as they wandered into the kitchen for a drink or a snack. I may not be a professional woodworker, but I'm glad I had that opportunity.Now we are really getting off the subject!
Edited 4/6/2005 10:34 am ET by Matthew Schenker
Matthew, apparently you bring all of your integrity and skill to bear in the work you do for others. Others who depend on their woodworking business for a livelihood do as well. While we appreciate an appreciative customer, we would like for our reward not necessarily to be of the non-economic variety if you get my drift. I don't know how this fits into your view of economics, politics, or philosophy. In the end, it seems such a simple concept to me.
Good luck with your woodworking and your woodworking business.
When you were reading Rand, did you enjoy her essays?
Edited 4/6/2005 11:03 am ET by cstan
cstan,
Up until your last post, I thought I understood you. But now, it appears that your idea is that somehow I am hurting the professional woodworker no matter what I do. How can it be that by doing quality work for less money I am hurting someone who doesn't even want the job? By the way, the people who end up hiring me have already decided that they aren't willing to pay $5,000 for two bookcases. When they call me, they are investigating the idea, and if it turns out to be too much money, the drop that idea. So it's either me, or they go without doing the job. I'm not taking anything away from the professional. In fact, I'm helping the woodworking profession overall by doing this smaller job for the client and having that person learn the beauty of custom-made work. After that, the person may realize the value in hiring a craftsman to remodel their kitchen. And for that job, a professional will get the call, not me. Like I said, I will not take work that is beyond my skill level, and I eagerly refer them to one of the professional outfits in my area.I take issue with your assertion that people I do work for are "cheap-shi* customers looking for the cheapest price they can find." This is offensive, and inaccurate. I did a kitchen built-in bookcase for a social worker who had just bought her first house. She couldn't even get professionals to return her calls for the job. What was I supposed to do, tell her, that those professionals who are not calling her back should get the work?And like I said, some professionals do crappy work. I know for a fact that my work is better than a large number of the professionals. In a white-hot housing market, I think a lot of professionals get complacent. You mentioned that you "LIKE to think that this is a profession." Does crappy work done by a professional make you feel better than quality work by a semi-professional? If the professionals are so much better, they will win more contracts in the end, plain and simple.I have learned one thing over the past few months of semi-professional woodworking: I will begin charging more for my time. Does this make you happier?
Edited 4/5/2005 8:16 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
I too am a semi-pro woodworker. Like many I think my rate per hour is well below the market. I can work for less per hour because I have a non-WW full time job. This doesn't mean my work is lower quality, or I charge less for the same work. I am well trained woodworker. (college/apprentiship/fulltime woodworking experiance) I have a fairly well equiped shop, but I could never compete with a pro shop with all the bells and whistles. I can produce work for what I think is the market rate, but it takes me longer to produce due to the lack of bells and whistles. As I make a few $$ I update/add new equipment which makes me more efficiant. As I get more efficiant, I get a higher rate per hour for the same product (market) prices.
Before I get too long winded... I just wanted to point out that many of us "ankle biters" end up charging market rates for our products due to the extra time it takes us to make the same product. We're all not the Wallmart of woodworking in price or quality.
I like working in a smaller shop. Though I earn less per hour. When I've worked in the larger shops I felt I spent too much time running machines, and not enough time at my bench.
GRW
cstan,
I just re-read your post, and it struck me anew with how rude and inappropriate it is.One last point. Comparing woodworking to medicine is illogical. With medicine, there are laws about who is allowed to practice, and people's lives are at stake. For the most part, with woodworking, we are doing things that add beauty, but no one will die if our work is less than perfect. If you really want to compare woodworking to medicine, compare professionals to professionals. If this trade were like medicine, a good number of professional woodworkers would be sued for negligence. Is that the comparison you were making?
Edited 4/5/2005 11:41 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Matthew, I think you ae getting hung up on the superficialities and rhetoric at the expense of the fundamental issue.
The point under discussion seems to be whether people who give their work away or sell it way under market value make life harder for those who make a living at it, and if so, what might be a proper balance between "charity" and commercialism.
I think it's a fruitful and interesting discussion, with a variety of viewpoints being expressed.
Don't you think it would be more productive to stick to the issue rather than getting sidetracked with personalities?
Of course Cstan is abrasive sometimes. He's not going to change for you, and it's hardly rational for you to expect him to. So what? Who's he hurting, other than his own argument? Is your position so weak that you have to assail someone's manners and personality in lieu of strengthening your argument?
Michael R
Michael, I'm gradually changing my point of view regarding this issue as I read more opinions from others. Now there's a rarity-- someone changing a point of view due to discussions in a forum, but then this isn't a political discussion in the Cafe, ha, ha.
I'm coming round to the position where working for free or the cost of a meal can both hurt professional furniture makers, and it can have no effect.
I have been hurt by amateurs undercutting me, and I certainly resented it at the time, and could my competitior do an equal job? It's hard to say. Of course there are situations where I wouldn't get called in anyway to quote a job because the 'customer' could never afford it.
But if they have a friend willing to do the work for little or nothing they could end up with something they'd never normally aspire to, and as some have said in this discussion, what difference would that make to me?
In the last situation perhaps it could be argued that how it affects me is that it reduces peoples expectations of cost for high quality bespoke or custom work-- word has a habit of getting around that the customer got a job for very little and this seems likely to colour the perceptions of the customers friends and family,..........and probably beyond that too. Slainte.RJFurniture
Greetings Richard and All ,
I have been making a living from my WW for over 25 years . In that time I certainly have not got every job I have bid on . After really thinking about this , my thoughts have come down to this : this may not apply to all but in general I feel may hold truth . I really can't say I have ever lost a bid to a semi professional / hobby type , yes I have lost to other pro shops .The semi pros must rely solely on word of mouth without the benefit of yellow pages or the equivalent .Therefore the average prospective client especially if new to the area, will often times pick up the phone book .Or , when a person just purchases a home and wants to add ww they may ask the builder or the realtor or a neighbor possibly . It is unlikely the builder or others would give the name of someone who is not really in business as a pro , IMO . I would be more concerned about cutthroat competition by other pro shops . Being legal is an important factor to many consumers , true being legal or for that matter a pro does not guarantee quality . Being legal really is a form of comfort level for the consumer , part of what it means is we have met the financial responsibility to protect the consumers . As has been stated in some previous posts , there is a good chance the client that would go to a semi pro / part timer is NOT the same client we normally work for , therefore again IMO this may not take work away or hurt the pros in any way financially . We could compare it to working for DIY ers , they are not in our circle of clients as a rule .Another reason a semi pro bids lower may be he has not gained the credibility that we have earned over many years of honing our craft , that allows us to walk in and calmly and confidently say $5,000 for those book cases , plus delivery .
good luck to all
dusty
Woodwiz,
I was sticking to the subject, even when cstan was obnoxious. If you look back at my posts that were responding to him, I continued to stay on target. I continued discussing, as you put it, "whether people who give their work away or sell it way under market value make life harder for those who make a living at it, and if so, what might be a proper balance between "charity" and commercialism."My main arguments are: quality semi-professionals should not be seen as competitors to true professionals; in the end quality work, whether it's from a professional or a semi-professional, enhances the trade; semi-professionals should not get into projects that are over their heads -- they should turn that over to true professionals; a lot of projects semi-professionals get hired for are things that true professionals don't want anyway; not all true professionals do quality work and should not be seen as automatically enhancing their trade.Along the way, I also felt it necessary to point out that cstan's attitude is rude and unhelpful. He outright insulted me and clients who would hire me, which was uncalled for. Let's try to have discussions that help people form ideas and opinions.
I would argue that a professional does not do shoddy work and if they do they will not stay in business for long.
While one might not like the styles they work in, I doubt one would characterize Maloof, Nakashima, Krenov's work as every having been shoddy. I also think we can agree that these men were/are professional furnituremakers in every since of that term.
Ultimately, you and I are talking about two different trades although I strongly believe that one can be a thorough, consummate professional without having the state grant one a license to do something. Although in the U.K. and Europe I believe that licensure examinations are still given for aspiring professional woodworkers. Imagine that.
Of course, you are free to work for whomever you please at whatever price you please. If part of the pleasure you derive from your occassional forays into professional woodworking is helping people, then more power to you. Maybe I should be less jaded.
However, and again, I don't get excited about a client when I discover that they have shopped around and everybody else is "too expensive." But I no longer build bulk plywood projects, either. I was cabinet and bookcase king at one point but I never gave it away (and I tried my best to keep it as high end as I could) and I ran off more than one potential customer who had a turned up nose when it came to pricing.
I'm forced, because of other circumstances, to pick and choose very carefully the work that I take on in my furnituremaking business. Ultimately, that's been a blessing both in the satisfaction from the work itself and on my bottom line.
cstan,
Sounds as if, at one point in your career, you did exactly what I've been doing. I do the best possible job, use the best materials, and my work is good quality. I am meticulous about detail. As a matter of fact, like I have said, after just a few paying jobs I have decided that I will begin charging a lot more for my work. This, again, puts me in the same position you were in a while ago, it seems.Just so you know, I was not talking about Krenov and Maloof when I said that there are professionals who do shoddy work! I was talking about some of my local furniture makers. I've been in lots of houses where professionals built a mantle or a table or other piece of custom furniture and I know I do better work. But you may be right -- they might not last too long. Still, they are/were professionals. My argument is that they do not deserve any more praise for their work than I do for mine. In the end, what matters more -- how many hours one works at something, or the quality of what he creates?If a client is looking to hire someone on the caliber of Sam Maloof, they aren't going to be looking me up for the job!
Edited 4/6/2005 9:31 am ET by Matthew Schenker
What's important to remember is that the ankle-biters you speak of soon fail. Some just fail faster than others.
I would not worry about such competition. Longevity in business, like life, has its rewards."Anything is possible with a big enough expense account."
Hunter S. Thompson
I guess I'd say they fail or become fabulously successful or somewhere in between. Toyota and Nissan were ankle-biters in that sense. So was Walmart. They created businesses that not only were competitive but real world-beaters.
I'd definitely agree that 99% of the people who try to start new businesses do so on the misguided perception that everyone out there is "too expensive" and try to compete solely on the basis of price. Almost all of them fail.
Late getting back to you but,
I'd hardly qualify Toyota,Nissan or WalMart as ankle-biters. They are big business ,but started out smaller. Still, they understood what most enthusiastic woodworker/hobbyists don't which is, Money is the reason they do what they do.Passion or a labor of love is secondary if it exists at all.
This is the number one reason most start-ups fail within the first two years: undercapitalization.Being successful as a professional woodworker(independent) requires as much knowledge and attention to business as it does to woodworking.
I once interviewed at a shop where the owner to my surprise had only recently come into woodworking. This was a fairly small shop,4 or 5 employees, but turned out high end custom work. The owner had a business degree from NYU and business was good. It seemed to me the shop was just a means to an end,that is,living well.After all he could have chosen another profession.
Edited 4/6/2005 2:58 pm ET by JACKPLANE
You make a lot of sense.
And of course consumers of custom woodworking don't always seek out the lowest cost provider. In fact, they might be turned off by same.
I agree in that the more educated consumers are about furniture and case goods, the more they'll understand why a good piece or a masterpiece costs quite a lot more than something from Ikea. But I also see them going one of two ways; either they'll pay more, or they'll pay less to the hungry upstart, but either way one's reputation is the best measure of future prosperity.
And sometimes a work can only be bought from one person. If you want a custom Maloof dining table and chairs for your home then I guess you have to actually have Maloof build it. You can find a look-a-like, but if you want an original you can either buy an existing one or have the living artist build it.
You're right Matthew. There are people in the business who are lazy, shoddy and incompetent. They too can hurt those in the business who provide a good service.
There are times too when a skilled amateur can do a much better job than a professional. The luxury of unlimited time and no budgetary restrictions allow complete freedom and the opportunity to design and make something stunning.
Sadly, in business, there's almost always a limited budget, meaning limited time and usually there are design restrictions that can lead to ugly work. I've made a lot of stuff over the years I wasn't willing to photograph for my portfolio--- but that bit of paper that has on it the phrase starting, "Pay to the order of," always looks good, ha, ha.
I guess that's life. Slainte.RJFurniture
Sgian,
It's always a pleasure discussing and debating with you. Your mix of humor and knowledge is a model for the rest of us!I'll bet your personality helps you succeed in woodworking, writing, and whatever you do for fun in life.Stay in touch.
Edited 4/6/2005 8:57 am ET by Matthew Schenker
Dunno, Matt.I've run across two categories: the cheapskates and the ones willing to pay fair rates for custom work.The cheapskates want a custom oak bookshelf (say, 30x72x10) for the barewood furniture store price. A couple of hundred bucks. They can't understand that loblolly pine, nails and plywood is less expensive than FAS oak, screws and/or dowels. Tell them the oak for the project will cost over $125 plus time and they don't understand it. "Yew want sentyfive dollers just to put it together" is a frequent response from this crowd. The ones willing to pay fair rates will ask if you can come close to (insert name of quality furniture store) price for something similar in size but designed for their needs/wants. (On the order of $650.) They'll ask me or another fellow they know because they'd rather spend money with someone they know than a stranger, or because they've seen something I or another semi-pro built and liked the design. Or both.The second category is scarce on the ground.I did have a co-worker ask if I could turn a chair rung out of pecan once, his grandson had managed to kill it. As luck would have it, I had a pecan log in the basement from a tree that was felled in the neighbourhood. So I did the turning, gave it to George, apologized that it wasn't an exact match. (It was damn close, tho.) No problem. Next week, George handed me a bottle of Dalmore. At ABC store prices it worked out to about $125/hour. Best deal for a friend I've done to date. :)Leon Jester
Leon Jester,
Even as a semi-profesional, I have turned down jobs when someone wanted to pay Bob's Unfinished Furniture rates. Being someone who really appreciates the value of fine-crafted woodworking, cheapskates have always annoyed me. Except for one or two early experiences, I've either done woodworking for family, in which case my work is greatly appreciated, or I have done it for strangers who are willing to pay enough so that it is worth it to me. I have not been paid what the professionals are asking, but neither have I tried to match bargain-basement suppliers. And as time goes on, I have become more picky. Like I said in a previous post, I will be charging more for my work, since I am now starting to get more calls. I have recently been laid off from my day job, so I have more time for paid woodworking, and at the same time I am taking it a lot more seriously.As I have said, in my area the housing market is white hot. There are just too many jobs, and the professionals have the luxury of turning down work they don't want. This is not just with woodworkers. The same is true with electricians, carpenters, gardeners, and others. That's where someone like me has my chance to do quality work and prove himself without hurting anyone. Yes, there are people looking for a bargain, but as I said I am already ignoring them. Then there are people willing to pay what the job is worth, if only they could get someone to do the work. That's becoming my focus.
Edited 4/7/2005 9:08 am ET by Matthew Schenker
Ive been reading this thread and I really enjoy the diverse opinions here. So I think Ill add to it :>).
i am a amerture/semi part time pro. Ive notice the people who come to me are a few basic types of personalities.
1) The one who goes to IKEA and finds something they like but its just a tad to small or to large or not the right color. These folks dont really want to pay for quality nor do they really expect to get a museum piece. They are wanting something they cant really find.
2) Folks who see my work and are in-laws of the people I did the work for. They usually brag about their new house, car ect then want something "custom" built for their home office/entertainment center ect. BUTTTTT expect IKEA prices. For those folks I will tell them my standard " 450 dollars plus mat'ls to minimum start. They will gasp annd go to Walmart or Lowes. They would never be happy with thhe job and complain about every little thing and try to get me to lower my price.
They think its to much. They dont think my time is worth what they will pay me because after all their more important than I.
3) The ones who are a joy to work for. Need something done they cant find anywhere else and they just turn me loose to build it. pay me when Im through in cash....Their the best.
Some people just dont think about quality. They think about price. They think because Im a small one man shop who works out of my garage I should be cheaper and demand to be cheaper.
One time a guy asked me how much to build a 8' custom built in entertainment center, installed finished to match his furniture. I asked him what species of wood? No clue... So I told him well ball park with out checking or going over the design ect.. 5K.. he just about dropped.. The only thing he could say is "Your a one man shop in a garage" Why should it cost that much, I can buy them all day for half that"...I told him to go buy it.....
We talked many times after that . I know him well..when we brought this subj up he only thing he could focus on was " Your a one man shop who works out of his garage. I aient gonna pay YOU that".... He still dont have on BTW andits been over a year... so thats my take on this situation.Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
i'm a Union Carpenter who recently went into business for myself. whether you do work for friends or strangers, whether the job costs/is worth $50 or $5000 get it in writing. you'll sleep better at night.
brian
we should talk some more..possibly start another thread...I just spoke to the carpenters union here in OKC and you wouldn't believe the stuff I was told.......hope the local you belong to is run better than this one....ever heard of being sent somewhere in hopes you get a job as a union carpenter?? I was told that they may send me to , lets say, Las Vegas, I might be there 2 weeks before it being decided if I'd work or not, the cost of that 2 weeks would be carried by me and then no guarantee I'd get a job anyway...whats up with that???If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Oh yeah...I should mention I'm not trying to start a "bash the union" thread......I'm just curious if they're all run like this now......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Carpenters union in Memphis is weak. Too many hombres from south of the border working for next to nothing. Mexican framing and concrete subcontractors are rumored to be paying their undocumented brethren a couple of bucks an hour - slave wages. These guys are also starting to get into cabinet installations which has that market all whored-up as well.
Can't imagine it would be much different in Oklahoma or further west.
Edited 4/5/2005 12:28 pm ET by cstan
Same here....hard to make a decent living against guys willing to make 3 bucks an hour.....and happy for it....drywall can be had for around 35 cents a square foot hung and textured, most of the guys I know trying to make a decent living out of it are in the 50-55 cent range.....quality is terrible..framers are still mostly white guys....but as far as concrete, brick and drywall.....well..thats a thread we don't want to get into...or do we??? Have had many job offers down here wanting a so called "journeyman" carpenter and they're willing to pay 9 bucks an hour for the quality work they provide....if you want to drive anywhere from an hour to 2 hours for the privelege....INS did a drive through in a housing subdivision here a couple months back....would you believe that of the 12 houses being built that day, almost 2/3 of the workers just suddenly vanished until the coast was clear??? Whats that tell ya??I've heard some of the reliable GC's mention calling INS and having them crack down in some local areas.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
A friend of mine's father has a cab installation business and I help them on weekends from time-to-time when they get backed up. The beer at the end of the day is cold. I've seen an INS grab or two myself. Basically a big joke.
Sheetrock and concrete are completely overrun with illegals here. The onslaught started in framing a few years ago. Not making as heavy an inroad in framing but it's only a matter of time.
Not surprisingly, the only GC's still doing good work are the guys building million dollar homes. Anything less than half a million is garbage. I swear to God I wouldn't live in one.
I hear that...worked on a half million dollar fiasco last year, the GC was a real piece of work, was supposed to close on September 1st 2004, finally closed in March of 2005. 1/2 a million doesn't get you much around here either, at least with a few of the local builders, some are good from what I hear, but the couple I've had contact with are really trash builders. Been working with a couple GC's that are doing commercial work, restaurants, store renovations etc, and they won't hire anybody but good carpenters....no shabby work or ethics for them.....you wouldn't believe the tiling work and poor sheetrock in that 1/2 mill home.....volunteer work would have more quality.....did I mention the 12/12 pitch roof was already sagging between the rafters???If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Just signed on with an outfit out of Texas, traveling all over the country, 225 days per year on the road, doing store remodels, looking for highly qualified carpenters willing to pay 60-70K yearly to get them.....only off time is during the holiday season....Will be gone for 18-25 days at a time, home for a couple days and then flying out again. they fly you everywhere, make all the hotel arrangements, travel arrangements, rental vehicle.....darn shame I've got to leave the wife and kids behind for 7 1/2 months yearly in order to make a decent living.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
one last thing...I don't have to relocate to Texas for this job,....they've got guys all over the country working for them....If anybody's interested...I'll forward the info to you so you can check them out yourself.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I don't believe that we talked before but I'm replying anyway. Everyone (in the union) wants their reps. out there fighting for them, getting higher pay at contract time, but yet when members go out and do a side job their willing to work for peanuts. Why? "Well if I don't do it then Joe Public will do it". Let Joe P. do it and screw it up. If the Non Union sector would demand higher wages we'd all benefit. The only reason that non Union carps. make what they do is because of those that are organized - we keep wages in check.
As far as the Mexican element...do what I do - report 'em to the INS. Take action and FIGHT for your livelyhood. Don't sit back and think someone else is gonna take care of it for you.
Proud Member L.U. 211 Pgh, PA
Yeah..I agree with everything you say.....can you provide some light on the comment I made about the deal I was told and used Las vegas for an example?? I'm real curious........thanks!!!If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Bob,
This is a vital subject.
About a year ago, I began to make the transition from full-hobby to semi-professional woodworker. I did a few jobs for friends and family, and I now get calls for jobs from strangers and what I call one-degree-of-separation individuals (friends of friends). If it is a family member, I do the job for free and tell them it's their birthday present or holiday gift. No complications there. It's the others that you have to be careful about.
I have learned that it is best to figure in both materials and time. You DO NOT want to just tell a person three times materials, nor do you want to just charge $35/hr. Since neither you or I are full-time woodworking professionals, we run the risk of shocking the client. Up front, $35/hr sounds reasonable, but what happens when you submit a bill for 50 hours ($1,750) and the client was secretly thinking more along the lines of $800-$1,000? On the other hand, what if you only charge three times materials (say $600) and spend 50 hours. In the end, you only made $12/hr? Believe me, it happens!
I've learned to double the materials and also charge $35/hr (including drafting time). But I calculate the whole thing up front, figuring up front the hours it will take me and the cost of materials. I can then give the client an actual figure for the job. If I end up spending more time that I calculated, it's my problem. I never have to worry about spending less time -- it's never happened! I also keep a log of hours and money spent, so the next time I can be more accurate. After two or three jobs, you get pretty good at this.
The important thing here is to have a figure, up front, that everyone agrees on, and have no mystery about what the final price will be. Mystery is great for romance, but not for woodworking! It's the mystery can strain a relationship.
I am also a "semi-professional", building furniture and built-ins as a side job. My work is certainly priced lower than the "professional", and I believe that until I develop a reputation for quality work with the projects to prove that, then I can charge only what I think is fair. I think most cabinet/furniture makers start out that way. You cannot start out charging $5,000.00 for a bookcase if you don't have the reputation for quality to back that up. When and if I go "professional", I will charge a reasonable amount, but also an amount that I can justify from my experience. For me, this may only be working for the middle or upper-middle income level customer. I think there is a market to be filled there. I think it is also important that you are happy with your work and the level of quality that you produce.
Robert
Don't ya just love it? Since the Cafe became "members only" we have moved the philosophical discussions here. At least this time we are arguing about woodworking subjects, not politics!
It's all a matter of supply and demand boys. Let the free market float and natural selection will weed out those that aren't charging enough to make a fair profit, as well as those that are trying to charge too much. Let your customers tell you what they want, and are willing to pay. They will -- are you listening to them?
Woody
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled