I’ve recently gotten into doing large projects and have been asked to do another wall unit. I’m in the process of researching and was hoping to get some input from others here. I was informed that out in Southern Cal and Chicago for instance, that the rate is between $800 – $1,200 ft to start with, for a custom wall unit. I live in Western NY, and am doing this as side work for people i know or have been recommended to. This is a part time thing, I do good work and am just looking to get paid fairly. A general $/ft rate to start with would be helpful. The project I’m in the process of completing is a 12ft wall unit: 5 ft wide mantle with raised paneling above it and base cabinets with shelving on either side. The wood is Cherry.
thanks
Replies
I struggle with the use of overly simple estimating rules. It is like asking: "what is the cost of a car?" It really depends upon the quality and features. My approach is to first do a preliminary design, compile a cut list, and estimate the cost of materials. Then I estimate the labor by doing a rough process list, estimating the time for process steps, and adding it up. Be sure to include all steps in your process, such as buying materials and delivery and setup. I have used this approach for a few years and can do it fairly quickly.
Issues we must address:
Profit: I use a "burden" rate for labor cost, and that rate includes my labor, shop overhead, and profit.
Competitiveness: I try to benchmark my price against market alternatives, if possible. If my price is higher than similar "products", I try to focus on where there is value in custom work to justify the difference.
I hope this helps. Good luck, Tom.
The range that you are quoting is the correct range of good quality work in Chicagoland. Every area is different. It took me years to figure out what pricing will be tolerated, and what won't. You're going to have to stick your nose out there and get it slapped a couple of times to find out what is too much, and what is just right. Once your reputation grows, the pricing part matters alot less, and you can raise your prices. There are many factors that make up pricing. One 12 foot wall unit may take 3 weeks to build, while another with curves, arches, and extremely ornate and detailed mouldings and carvings could take 3 months. These are all factors that can't be factored in by a "price per foot" quote.
My suggestion would be to get the jobs, and do them at the slightly lower end. Keep excellent records of how much material costs, and how long it takes you to build the unit. At the end, figure out if you're making enough to continue doing it. Richard Jones wrote an excellent article about pricing your work a few months back in Woodwork magazine. Check it out. Very thorough.
Jeff
Check out woodtalk episode 1.
http://woodtalkonline.com/
The pricing part is near the end of the conversation, but it's only a half-hour. Later episodes get closer to an hour.
Generally speaking, they have the same thoughts as earlier mentioned -- figure out materials and how long it will take to put together. Slap an hourly rate on that and adjust from there. Marc & Matt bring up a lot more detail though, so give it a listen.
Glen
This unit that I'm just completing has taken close to a 1000 hrs, I'm embarrassed to say. But it was my first big project and there was a lot of learning and planning, and then reworking the plan etc. It was moderately complex and ornate as well. i agree there is a significant range of complexity from one end of the spectrum to the other. Had I done it like a trim carpentry type job, it would have gone a hell of a lot quicker. But i wanted to do a nice piece in large part for the learning experience. There were a number of difficulties with the mantle and raised panel section that i hadn't anticipated. For instance, when assembling and gluing the crown molding to the underneath of the mantle top, the little bit of stress that was applied in clamping it together was enough to cause a slight crown in the middle and a slight twist from one end to the other. Having done it, I could probably do another from planning to finish in a third or even a quarter of the time.
Edited 4/27/2007 12:04 pm ET by dperfe
This unit is one I completed a couple of years ago for a customer. It's 10' tall, and 17 1/2' wide. It took 2 months to complete, but half of that time was allowing for bookmatched panels and doors to reach equilibrium again with my shop after resawing. It took about 110 hours of work, including finishing and installation.
At 1000 hours, or even 1/4 that, you are going to have a real hard time making any money, or being able to compete price-wise with the local professional competition. If that is not your goal, and you're in it for the fun, then it won't matter. Otherwise, I'd say you need to really speed up.
Sorry, but I think you're probably looking for honesty.
Jeff
That's fine Jeff, I appreciate the honesty. I think what ill have to do is just spend a bit of time and examine the whole process i went through, create a comprehensive plan for the next one and then see what happens. But even if it takes me 200 hrs, I think i can still be competitive, since I'm working out of my basement and don't really have much additional costs. I built a door chest last year that didn't take me long at all. Soft maple with birch ply, painted an off white. I made $700 profit off it. I didn't work straight through on it, but i'm certain it didn't take more than 30 hrs working at a leisurely pace. So there's hope. And again, i'm just doing these on the side, as a secondary source of income. thanks
Edited 4/27/2007 6:55 pm ET by dperfe
Was that $700 profit or $700 for your labor?
Hi dperfe,I think you've picked up some of the feedback that you were interested in, so I'll try to provide some comments that can help you reflect on the process you went through.First, you said you spent about 1000 hours on the project. Translate that into 9-5 job and you have 6 MONTHS that you spent on the project. How much do you want to make in a year? Cut that in half, add materials costs and that's what you should have charged for that project.Okay, realizing it was for a friend *and* you don't seem to need the money for sustenance, some other things to consider. Sometimes having too many choices is a bad thing. Building up 9 different profiles sounds like a major, major time sink. Great learning experience; horrible for staying in business.It also sounds like you put a lot of effort in planning and re-planning the project. I work in the software field, and that's the death of any project. It simply adds way too much time to the project (after the bid) and usually causes lots of re-work. Re-work translates into wasting your earlier efforts. Every successful project I have seen executed had a firm point where requirements were frozen and everything was assembled. Remember that better is the enemy of the good.And just to temper my advice there -- it may have been your friend wanted heirloom quality cabinets. And if so, he should have been willing to pay the price for it. But that's something to get cleared up front. Remember to marry production to design if you want to be successful. You must keep both perspectives in mind or you'll end up with difficult to execute facets of your project that kill your profit in the end. And the waste cuts will poke you sharply in the pocket book.A final thing to consider if you want to expand your client base -- not everybody will be willing to wait that long for what they see as a "simple project." If I had to wait 6 months (or longer!) for something I ordered, I sure as heck would have wanted to know up front and to know why it would take so long. You run the risk of getting fired (and possibly not paid at all!) for projects like that. When you're the contractor in a big project like that, strike while the iron is hot! You just may regret it if it cools too much.I hope that helps, I really mean all of this as constructive comments. Please post some pics of your finished project. I think we'd all love to see what you put together.Glen
Glen,
"better is the enemy of the good".
I may have to print that on a banner and hang it in my shop!
Your advice to dperfe is dead on, a lot of those things I learned the hard way the first year I was in business for myself.
Lee
Hey Lee,
as for " better is the enemy of the good " I'm not sure I really understand that.
The phrase familar to me was one that hung in the dressing room of the Oilers on their numerous runs to the Cup. It read " good is the enemy of great ", suggesting that those satisfied with merely being good would never achieve greatness. Are we talking about the same thing ?
Better is the enemy of the good. meaning, 'better' comes along, checks out your merely 'good' work and says, "you can do that better'. wash, rinse, repeat about 18 times until it's 'perfect'. The route of genius and the death of mere mortals. If you're trying to make a living it can be a quick way to go bankrupt... cheers, -s
Hi,The two phrases are in direct contrast / tension / anti-thesis with each other.And it's all about context. :-) Because they can both be used by the same person!The rest of my post is turning into a long essay. Clearly the coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Skim as needed. :-)"Better is the enemy of the good" and "Good is the enemy of great" are pretty much exclusive, but they give a good snapshot of two different methodologies. The real magic is determining when each mantra is appropriate. Most of the time, I have to subscribe to "better is the enemy of the good" because of constraints. In my case, time, money, and the number of projects are a major constraint. If I allowed myself to fall into the trap of trying to make something continually better, I would never get anything finished. There's always that "Well, what if I did .... "The "better" phrase is a reminder to those (like me) who are inherently seeking perfection. It lets us know to let up a little bit and re-evaluate something from other people's eyes and see the real beauty of what we have created. It's not a cop-out, it's a self-limiter. The end analysis is to realize it is great but not perfect and that's okay.I'll humbly submit that a contractor can not afford the phrase "Good is the enemy of great", because it implies that they must continue refining and refining and refining and refining and refining that project until it is 'great'. In order for the contractor to bill the client, they must complete their project. I am purposefully ignoring heirloom-quality commissions for this discussion.An artist can safely subscribe to "Good is the enemy of the great", because an artist can afford to throw all other constraints out the window. Part of what makes great art great is other (rational?) people look at it and are amazed at the intensity of energy that went into the piece. On the other hand, how many starving artists do you know and how many rich artists do you know?Other folk who *should* subscribe to the "good" phrase are folks who know they aren't perfectionists already. The phrase is really meant as an inspiration as opposed to a self-limiter. It helps you pull deep when you're down by a TD in the 4th quarter and there are seconds left on the clock. The end analysis is easier here -- get yourself to greatness.And a lot of it is subjective anyway -- what's great? what's better? what's good?I think if I were to go after those definitions in this post, I'd be banned for going over the limit and I'd have to switch to beer or wine for a proper philosophical discussion. :-) And we'd have to have the conversation moved to the cafe. ;-)The two phrases are talking about the same thing, but in completely opposite ways. Both paths can lead to greatness.hth,
Glen
xylo,
storme summed it up as good as I could have. I find myself staring at something pefectly fine and wondering if I could do "a little better"
When you are self employed, and the only employee to boot, it's not good to waste too much time second guessing yourself.
By no means am I advocating sending out sub-par quality. If I'm not happy with it, it doesn't leave my shop, period.
Cheers,
Lee
Glen et al
As per our discussion re "good is the enemy of great"
a brief history,
After getting my Cabinetmakers ticket in '89 I left to work in a craftsmens shop in Japan for two years. The master carpenter that I worked under was a master of his craft in the truest sense of the word. I was almost overwhelmed and wholly intimidated by the seemingly effortless manner in which he went about putting together beautiful work with fiendishly difficult joints. Most of which was hidden from view and could only be appreciated by another familar with the craft.
It took weeks for me to feel comfortable enough to ask, through the other apprentice who knew passable english, questions about his work and how he went about things. He largely ignored me for the most part and assigned to me the more menial of tasks around the shop, the instructions delivered by through gestures and a minimum of words. It was quite clear that he thought of me as more of a nuisance than of any real benefit.
I asked him how he could do such complicated joinery and never make any errors, he sniffed and replied that perhaps I should look more carefully. I did and still only saw a fluidity and seamless flow of motion. It was both inspiring and intimidating.
After a time, during which he politely suggested that put my nose right on joint he was working on in order to get a closer view, I asked my question again. He laughed and replied that he was not overly impressed with my observational skills.
He was pleased that he had made such an impression on me but that I was not yet skilled enough to recognize the path that lead him through his work. This path is generally referred to as "the way of" or "do", (sorry but there should be a line over the o but my typing skills fail me), with the tools or implements being known as "dogu. I imagine most of you have heard of this before. He laughed and said that he could fix his mistakes so quickly and efficiently that no one even knew he had made them. He tapped the side of his head and said that he was so fast that he could sometimes even catch them before they left "up here".
" I accept problems and mis-steps as part of the path and take them in stride, therefore they never bother me and slow me down. It is an acceptance. You look at these things as closing. I look at the same thing as opening. It is a refinement that you must come to learn."
He looked apon the whole thing as rather hilarious and joked about it for months. Every so often he'd look at me and asked if I had learned how to stop making mistakes yet and burst out laughing. It was a small measure of consolation. It was always a pleasure to hear him laugh.
So what does this have to do with our discussion?
I returned home in '91 and set up own shop. I've tutored 2 sets of apprentices since and every day I must decide whether their work is good or whether its just good enough. I set the standards and keep raising them both for myself and for the shop monkeys. The search for and cultivation of refinement does not begin and end with every job even though each job must have its ending. Its a continuum.
In my shop I can't afford not to believe that "good is the enemy of great". Its why I have'nt had an up to date business card for eight years and why I don't need one. Its why the shop is booked for the next year and people leave me their phone number just in case I can find the time.
Its pretty much why I say I'm a professional.
very nice. Thanks for your story. -s
Hi Xylo,I'll second what storme said -- you shared a great story. I laughed out loud picturing a very traditional Japanese craftsman begrudgingly tolerating your presence in his shop. You must have shown quite a bit of perseverance to survive there. Many Westerners don't have the patience for Eastern teaching.I'll also add that I think our philosophies dovetail together pretty well. Understanding the zen of the quest is, as your former instructor would have said, part of the path. Your path is not the same as mine even though it is the same path.Many, many folk (myself included!) haven't found or learned the balance point that your instructor impressed upon you. And that's where those little koans come in handy.It certainly sounds like you have done well for your business and that your shop is turning out excellent pieces. As an aside -- the Japanese term for "way" or "path" is 'te', as in kara-te. The Chinese term is 'do', as in kung shou do. In this case, that's the "way of the empty hand"Glen
Thanks!I picked up that phrase sometime when I was getting my engineering edumacation, and I must say it took some time to fully fathom what it means. In a way, it really captures what an engineer must do -- draw a compromise across a set of restraints. Glen
Hey DiscDog,Some good input there. I may have, in my exhaustion with this project, exaggerated a bit on the 1000 hrs claim. It certainly hasn't taken 5 months of full time work, though it often feels like it has. Your points - "too many options" and "better is the enemy of the good" were right on the mark. I had to laugh when I read that! I tend to be a perfectionist and though it served me well in my former career, professional ballet(though i do tend to drive my students nuts), now, it's not such a good thing. It's interesting to note, the door chest took little time simply because i had a picture with dimensions of what i needed to reproduce. There were no options, and no place for creativity! Actually this whole project was the brain child of two guys hanging out having a few beers, when my buddy accidentally uttered the infamous words "Hey wouldn't that look cool if..." To make matters worse he later said, go ahead and use your own judgment, but give me something creative and unique. Ultimately, he didn't know what he wanted, and it took me quite some time to help him figure it out, hence the many profiles. That one example I provided epitomizes the whole project. But anyway, yes I got too caught up in too many options, a bit of uncertainty, and the desire to imbue it with creative genius. All this for just a stupid mantle and a couple of bookcases. Again, good points. These are traps I'll have to make a concerted effort to avoid in the future.
Howdy,Glad to hear that some of my suggestions resonated with you. I have learned many of those lessons the hard way, so I'm glad to shorten the learning curve for someone else. ;-)Some of the most fun and dangerous projects I've been on have started with two guys saying, "wouldn't it be cool if...." It's all downhill from there I'm afraid.I'm not so certain that I would call it "just a stupid mantle and some bookcases." I suspect that after the amount of time you put into them that they look really good. Even though better is the enemy of the good, you can still appreciate the good for what it is. That's the challenge I'm working on now. And now you have the wisdom to quiet that little voice that says "well, what if you did..." :-)Glen
I do wall units and mantles for a fireplace company in NJ. We charge about $800 per foot, but to me it's low, especially for cherry. I'd go a minimum of $1200/foot, and add a surcharge if the finish is anything more than a simple stain and topcoat. For example I'm working now on a maple wall unit going right now that needs a 4-5 step finish (stain, seal, glaze, and topcoat, with a tinting step after sealing if the tone isn't right). They didn't charge enough for the many extra hours it will take to stain.
The other thing to watch out for is size. The current units are 53" across, single cases. This means shelves need extra support, and a lot of plywood is wasted because I can't cut a sheet in half and get two pieces...now I have a lot of 43" pieces that will wait in a pile for the next, reasonably-sized maple job. I would have also charged an uplift for the extra wide cases. T(hese are becoming more common for housing biga$$ TVs).
Thanks for the info Pond. It's become very clear to me that i just need to spend a bit more time and effort in planning the whole thing out and charging accordingly for the work i did. For instance, because it's for a friend and because I hadn't built one before, I went well beyond what a normal shop would do. I actually constructed 9 different profiles for the mantle alone, for him to choose from. i spent a hell of a lot of time trying to be creative and that doesn't even include the many drawn profiles that weren't constructed. And then, as you pointed out there's the finish. He's getting an involved multiple step finish. These are the things i gotta stop doing. thanks again.
Edited 4/27/2007 6:53 pm ET by dperfe
Best thing ever happend for my career was a divorce that forced me to get a real job in a hurry. I took my portfolio to a high end cabinet shop where the boss said " If you made this stuff I guess you can work for me. It was a life changing experience from the get go. I quickly learned the hard way that regardless of my 20 years of self taught experience everything I could do had to be done at least 10 times faster. After about 2 years there I left and opened my own shop and to this day am still amazed at what we can do when pushed way beyond our self imposed limits. Thanks, P.S. that job was where I got my nickname Sander Dude. California cabinet shops have lots of those!
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