Hi everybody.
I have just started working with green wood and have be offered the opportunity to fell 20 or so 6-10″ diameter small leaved elm trees (just before the dreaded disease gets them).
I have been reading that elm has historically been used for construction and was wondering if it would be a good wood to work green to make rustic furniture.
Has anyone got any experience or advice?
Replies
The short answer is yes. Like hickory or pecan, elm can be rather easily bent while green, and is very strong. It was sometimes substituted for ash or hickory for tool handles. My experience working with it suggests that it's very difficult to split, however. The grain seems to be excessively interlocked (might be why it was appropriate for tool handles). I succeeded in splitting down a 6" diameter 4 foot long bolt with a froe and a froe club, but it took a while - a long while.
"My experience working with it suggests that it's very difficult to split, however."
That's putting it mildly! FWIW, elm is so split-resistant, one use for elm used to be making the hubs for wooden wagon wheels.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Old Chicago boy here.. As a Child I remember no SUNSHINE on the streets because of all the Elms.. AND the burning leaves! Now just some Chinese Elms that look sickly!
Wonderful and HUGE trees as I remember...
"Wonderful and HUGE trees as I remember..."
Yeah, but you don't wanna hafta split the stuff for firewood. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Yeah, but you don't wanna hafta split the stuff for firewood. ;-)
LOL My grandpa had 'Hard' coal to burn then! Why a tree!
1960 guy here.. As in I could use tools with some nice outcome.. I have some wood panels in my house made from the HUGE Elms cut down in front of my house..
Grandpa had it made.. I think he gave up life when the trees died. But he had Cancer.. Grumpy old man, BUT NEVER mean to us kids! My grandpa had 'Hard' coal to burn then! Why a tree! Then again I think that hard Coal maybe an Elm?
Edited 10/17/2008 8:56 am by WillGeorge
I have split quite a bit of wood by hand and started some 20" Elm blocks this summer. After about 14-15 blows from an 8# splitting maul and made only slight dents..................... I waited til my friend
brought down his 20 ton vertical splitter which I staled 2-3 times.Catalpa is tough, ELM is impossible.Oh yeah, I always get a good chuckle at the clowns hawking splitting
tools at fairs working with small diameter, short length, straight grain woods.Hell, they couldnt even pick up a good sized block of elm.
One reason why elm had a role in wooden battleships, even though it is classed as a 'non-durable' wood is its interlocked grain. A cannon ball hitting oak, a favoured wood for shipbuilding, had a fair chance of splitting the part asunder for the same reason oak rives so well. Elm could withstand cannon ball hits much better. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Amerian or white elm (ulmus americana) has a lovely, beautiful grain. My experience is that it moves a lot while drying so I prefere not to work it green. I have never worked small leave elm (wahoo) but it too was used for wagon wheel hubs so I suspect it is much like american elm. I have split a fair amount of elm for firewood. I think that I still can. At 79 I don't try.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in South'n Murlyn'
Thank you all for your interest... some great discussion going on.I thought I would keep you up to date with my green Elm project.After reading the feedback and a little more research I decided to fell the trees. Hey anything for free in the present economic climate cant be bad eh! As I'm trying to be as traditional as possible with my work at the moment I cut five ten trees down by hand. Although the wood was a little sappy and tough this took a bit of work , but, was very rewarding.I decided that 7ft lengths would be a good size to start off with so lopped off the branches and cut them all to size. At this time I had wished I had the trusty old chainsaw with me.Loading the stuff into the trailer nearly finished me off... the Elm was so heavy I have bruises all across my shoulder and up my arm.
Yep I forgot the barrow!Back home I just about got the wood into a nice stack before I collapsed.I was very excited in the morning. I had decided that my first project was going to be a split and pegged gate.Out came the trusty froe and mallet. Boy, was it difficult to split. Using loads of wedges I finally managed to work my way down to halve it. Next stage was to put it into quarters. This was hell. The wood started to twist and shred into fibers and I ended up axing my way down. With one half and two quarters I decided to try something else so I got the draw knife out and tried to shave and clean it up. It was like the stringy cheese stuff the kids eat. There was no way I was going to be able to work with this green.I got out the carving axe and set about making a spoon. After starting off with a ladle size piece of wood I finally ended up with a teaspoon sized blank.... a not so satisfying end to two hard days work.Now I'm looking into the clouds for inspiration.
Old Elms here in Chicago that died long ago ...maybe 6 or 8 foot in Diameter!! MANY MANY feet tall'''
Not sure how the OLD mayor ... Father! of the New Mayor... Did it' But I never saw on a news broadcast as in.. Our Mayor had a tree cut and fell on a house!
I know for sure MANY under dirt at the South/North Corner of the BIG Airport.
I forgot to mention that corner was facing the BID LAKE! .. As in East!
Like at Irving park and Mannheim road! Going East or West... Or even North or South! Not sure why. Maybe a big... VERY large sink hole there! Chicago Mayors or the Police never tell us anything unless.... THEY look good doing it!
City trucks for hours and hours all days and nights... Many months! And covered with dirt! Amem... Amen.. Our Mayor saved us AGAIN!
Do not get me wrong.. Our Mayor lives in the same place WE do... BUT his family has 24/7 bodyguards! AND a SWAT team to back it up!
AND.. If I had gun to protect my kin I would be a subject to capital punishment!
Edited 10/19/2008 1:32 pm by WillGeorge
The modern classification of elm as "non-durable" doesn't really tell the whole story.
"Another very interesting use was as wooden water pipes, for which purpose the heart was hollowed out with an auger. Village water-pumps were originally tubes of elm-trunks, not of metal, and even the essential working part, the pump bucket, was carved out of elm. Though elm is perishable at ground level, when kept continually moist in this way it had a satisfactory length of life. ... it was used for the keels of large wooden ships, because it was hard to find oaks big enough and straight enough; it lasted well when kept permanently submerged." H.L.Edlin, "Trees, Woods & Man," p. 210. He means the Common not the wych elm.
Bullock earlier said much the same thing. "...is exceedingly durable when placed in a constantly damp position, and equally so if kept in a perfectly dry one, but will not stand an alternate treatment." Of the North American Rock Elm he says "Like most elms, it is not liable to split, and is exceedingly durable when in wet situations."
Jim
All true jimurock, I have read the reference you gave as it was relevant to a manuscript I'm working on, and it supports information from other reliable sources that I've studied. There is mention, for example, of elm used as pilings underneath both London Bridge and the Rialto Bridge in Venice. By inference it is possible to guess that at least some of the pilings under Venetian buildings are also elm.
Certainly elm is not a durable wood when exposed to the elements, but in common with a lot of other timbers or organic material, when oxygen, micro-organisms, bacteria, etc, are excluded through burying the stuff in, for example, mud the wood can last for centuries. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Mr Jones.. As in Richard.. My Sons first name...
Elm trees buried at O'Hara airport.. I cannot find info right now.. I AM SURE TRUCKLOADS of City trucks filled with Elms cut down that got the blight here in Chicago. They were were dumped into a HUGE pit at the corner of Mannhein and Irving Park roads. I think I read someplace it is a VERY dangerous intersection to drive through! Be careful if you come to look! ;>)
A Google Map that must be old... No 'Lake Ohare' there now.. Maybe they filled up the Lake with old Elms! I think so..
We had Elm trees that lined the streets in summer.. No sun on the street! Maybe three grown men with outstretched arms could hold hands around the tree trunks? Really!
Certainly elm is not a durable wood when exposed to the elements, but in common with a lot of other timbers or organic material, when oxygen, micro-organisms, bacteria, etc, are excluded through burying the stuff in, for example, mud the wood can last for centuries. Slainte. YEP! A bunch of HUGE buildings sitting' on top of then now!
EDIT: I forgot the link!
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=O%27Hare&daddr=1060%20W%20Addison%20St%20%28Wrigley%20Field%29&dirflg=r&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-gns-trs&utm_term=chiphoto1
Hand Paw West as in <------ until you see 19 in an oval and Lake O'Hara
Edited 11/2/2008 2:06 pm by WillGeorge
I zoomed in a bit on that Google map link at the south east corner of O'Hare airport Will. Up popped Lake O'Hare. I guess it's still there then. It is interesting that you remember so many elms being dumped in that hole. Slainte.
Edit for a PS. If, as you say, that three men holding hands could just about encircle the trunk of the largest of those trees then that makes the circumference roughly 190" to 210". Using the standard formula that each inch of girth at chest height equates to approximately one year's growth, then that would mean those trees were something like 180 to 220 years old when felled. Does that sound about right, assuming the trees were planted when those streets were laid out? I ask because I'm not sure when Chicago became big enough or important enough to be planned and organised into a city, town, or a governed administrative district of some sort.
That formula of an inch of girth per year at chest height doesn't always work, but it is pretty handy as a rough guide in temperate climates and for a fair selection of species. I've used the formula many times on trees here in the UK, and as long as the tree is at least 60 to 80 years old it is a fairly useful rule of thumb. I've measured trees where I know the approximate date of germination or planting and found it quite accurate to within 30 or 40 years.
For instance, you can often place the earliest date of likely germination of hedgerow trees on farmland because there are records to show when a hedge first appears, eg, a map of 1830 shows no hedge, but it is clearly on a map of 1845. In another example, sometimes a farm has been in the same family for generations and the family have a good idea when a hedge was planted to divide up a larger field. All such resources are useful to the diligent researcher, and I like to think I sometimes do a bit of that diligent stuff every now and then.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 11/2/2008 2:57 pm by SgianDubh
Richard Jones?
OK.. You have a point. What I posted was only my memories of those trees as a child.. BUT THEY WERE HUGE!
Maybe three of us little kids arm spands? In all seriousness, They were bigaround and AND tall.
I just looked around for a few things.. Here is what I came up with on the spur of the moment.
Pavement (Width in Feet)<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Travel lane(s)<!----><!---->
(Width in Feet)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Parking Lane (Width in Feet)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sidewalk(s)<!----><!---->
(Width in Feet)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Planting Strip<!----><!---->
(Width in Feet)<!----><!---->
Total <!----><!---->
Right-of-Way Required (Width in Feet)<!----><!---->
20’<!----><!---->
Two, 10’ each<!----><!---->
None<!----><!---->
One 5’<!----><!---->
One 7’, one 8’<!----><!---->
40’<!----><!---->
20’<!----><!---->
Two, 10’ each<!----><!---->
None<!----><!---->
Two, 5’ each<!----><!---->
One 7’, one 8’<!----><!---->
45’<!----><!---->
27’<!----><!---->
Two, 10’ each<!----><!---->
One 7’<!----><!---->
Two, 5’ each<!----><!---->
One 6’, one 7’<!----><!---->
50’<!----><!---->
27’<!----><!---->
Two, 10’ each<!----><!---->
One 7’<!----><!---->
Two, 6’ each<!----><!---->
Two, 8’ each<!----><!---->
55’<!----><!---->
34’<!----><!---->
Two, 10’ each<!----><!---->
Two, 7’ each<!----><!---->
Two, 6’ each<!----><!---->
Two, 7’ each<!----><!---->
60’<!----><!---->
Sorry.. I lost the link or I did not save it for the table above? About Chicago search..
I would think the two 7 foot or 8 foot would be correct. I think both sides of the street were the same. Who knows after all these years.
I can say for a fact that the tree trunk filled every inch of the 7 or 8 foot 'Planting Area'. And then some.. Sidewalks all humped up!
NOT THIS BIG THOUGH!
http://peachbeltstudiogallery.com/history.html
See: class picture in front of elm tree 1942-43
http://www.kristinegeorge.com/old_elm_speaks.html
Oak's Introduction"I've been wondering when you'd notice me standing here. I've been waiting, watching you grow taller . . ."
Excerpt from Old Elm SpeaksCopyright 1998. All rights reserved.
Maybe more like this?http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/elm.aspx
Up popped Lake O'Hare. I guess it's still there then.
NO lake now! No water there! Filled the lake with dead Elm trees!
Edited 11/3/2008 11:30 am by WillGeorge (WillGeorg1)
WillG, that is still pretty impressive. Let us say that the diameter of those trees was only five feet, that still gives a circumference of roughly 190" (pi X 60" or 3.14 X 60" = 188.4").
Those trees were a good age when they were felled, probably 170 to perhaps 200 years old. In other words they were laid out alongside those planned roads probably sometime in the early to mid 1800s. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I had to respond again..
Chicago Fire was in 1871.. As in I looked up! I did not recall the exact date. I would suppose not many trees survived that! Especially on planned streets! I cannot find anything on that during that time.
I was just a child in 'looking' up at those trees. Maybe survived the fire but doubt it.. I have no idea... 200 years old. Hardly I would think.. NOT fighting you.. Just my thoughts from your words typed..
My last post still stands. Not just a tree at the front of my house but the whole block of houses on my street but many others around us..
I cannot explain but true as I remember. I was a child but not a stupid child!
I have no idea how to explain it.. All I remember is that in summer time.. NO sun shine on the driving pavement! AND I still stand by the 'Planting Area' thing I posted?
I believe you gave the best information you could Will. I just crunched a few numbers based on the information you provided and came up with a reasoned guess at the age of those trees. Bear in mind that the inch of circumference per year of growth is only a rough method of estimating, and it's usefulness varies from species to species, location to location, and other factors. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Greetings from Elmwood Park, a Chicago suburb, now devoid of its namesake trees all of which suffered from Dutch Elm disease. I also remember the parkways of our village (and other suburbs as well as the city of Chicago) lined with tall, stately elm trees, in some instances no more than 15' between them. We had two on a 33' lot in front of my parents' house. The elms had all been felled by the early 1970's and in many cases NOTHING planted to replace the fallen trees. In time, many homeowners opted for maples or poplars along the parkway, but a 20 year-old tree simply doesn't have the majesty of the 100 year-old elms that once graced the village.
Now we're battling the asian longhorn beetle and the emerald ash borer, but we appear to be winning.
I've been looking for something to build in elm simply as a reminder of how abundant the material once was, and as a reminder of my hometown.
tony b.
I have just started working with green wood and have be offered the opportunity to fell 20 or so 6-10" diameter small leaved elm trees (just before the dreaded disease gets them).
Are you sure that these trees are going to get the Dutch Elm Disease. There have been newer strains of the trees that are disease resistant.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Greg
Thanks for the concern Greg. I wouldn't want to cut a tree down before its prime. Sadly to say these trees are part of a larger plot that is already infected.
6-10" When I was a child I would think three men 'Maybe' could reach around the circumference of some.
GO for it! A wonderful wood! As I remember.. Even plain sawn it looked nice! And then some!
I found elm to be a nice turning wood, good-looking, finely grained. little splitting, strong.
Tom
American Elm is a fairly common street tree in Vancouver. I don't know how old they are, probably 75 yrs or so, but many are in the 3 ft diameter range. For whatever reason the Dutch Elm disease does not seem to be a problem here. We do get some windfall and others taken down for street widening etc, I have slabbed some elm up with my chainsaw mill. I find that it dries pretty well actually, I have better luck with it than I do with cherry for instance.
Here's a picture of one of my favorite projects. It was from an elm tree that had to be removed for a library expansion. What does a library want? A library table, of course. I don't see that anyone mentioned the smell of elm. I think it smells like a cross between catt piss and cardomom. A very elegant looking wood. By the way, burls are notorious for tear out when planing. On this heavily burled elm, the areas that were burled had much less tear out than the non-burled areas. Just to give you an idea as to how significant elm's interlocking grain is.
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com
NICE! Love how you did the breadboard end with the burl. Very different. Great!
Thanks.
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com
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