Replies

1. 
   DonC | Jan 30, 2007 07:13am | #1

   The jointer....it's a no brainer. This should be followed by a planer. You have to be able to surface and edge solid stock if you really want to produce stuff quickly. Otherwise, buy quality hand planes.

2. 
   BruceS | Jan 30, 2007 07:40am | #2

   Actually the last item on your wish list woud be the next tool for me,   A planer.   Your router table can be used as a temporary jointer, at least for edging.

   Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

3. 
   nikkiwood | Jan 30, 2007 08:30am | #3

   A lot depends on the type of work that's on your horizon.

   But generally, I would think a planer would be the next logical choice, with a jointer close behind.

   What kind of stuff do you want to do in the near future, that you can't do now?

   ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

1. 
   kummell | Jan 30, 2007 08:46am | #4

   I'd like to do mostly cabinetry with some furniture - I have a miter saw stand, changing table and kitchen island to build next...

   as for my aches and pains:

   my mortise and tenon joints suck - I've tried to hand chop and drill and clean up and they mortises are very inconsistent (thinking drill press or mortiser or, I know, "classes")

   I can't drill perpendicular holes terribly well (I have one of those little drill-press things that attaches to a power drill, but it's not great) (thinking drill press)

   I have to rely on rips on the table saw to get a glueable edge for glue-ups, which is hit-and-miss (jointer, right?)

   I have to rely on lumber-yard thicknesses for my projects (bandsaw or bandsaw+jointer or planer?)

   any good prescriptions, doctor?

1. 
   sapwood | Jan 30, 2007 08:59am | #5

   Since you cannot decide for yourself: get the drill press

2. 
   nikkiwood | Jan 30, 2007 09:24am | #6

   SYMPTOM: my mortise and tenon joints suck - I've tried to hand chop and drill and clean up and they mortises are very inconsistent (thinking drill press or mortiser or, I know, "classes")TREATMENT: Switch to another kidn of joint until you can justify a bench type mortisers or a drill press (ok, but not the best for mortises). SYMPTOM: I can't drill perpendicular holes terribly well (I have one of those little drill-press things that attaches to a power drill, but it's not great) (thinking drill press.TREATMENT: good self-diagnosis (drill press), but have you tried one of these? http://tinyurl.com/3992vq Portalign is my favorite, but I'm not sure its made any more..http://norfolk.craigslist.org/tls/266888772.htmlSYMPTOM: I have to rely on rips on the table saw to get a glueable edge for glue-ups, which is hit-and-miss (jointer, right?)TREATMENT: jointer is best, but can also be done with a router table (can't remember if you said you have a router).SYMPTOM: I have to rely on lumber-yard thicknesses for my projects (bandsaw or bandsaw+jointer or planer?)TREATMENT: Need to start buying your hardwood from a lumber yard (cheaper). Around here I can buy "skip planed" material which is a step up from rough, and you can run it through the planer (With rough stock, you need to smooth one side with a jointer first).Planer also good for making your own edging for plywood carcases.****************************************************************Does that help?********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

4. 
   MikeHennessy | Jan 30, 2007 03:04pm | #7

   Being able to use rough lumber takes you into a whole new realm of woodworking possibilities. IMHO, furniture just doesn't look right when built with lumberyard dimensioned stock -- too prefab. I am out of the mainstream here, but I don't think it is necessary to always use a jointer prior to planing if you are reasonably careful about selecting your stock. Although I have a jointer, I rarely use it any more. I get perfectly acceptable edges from my TS (Forrest blade). If the stock isn't straight, I use a circular saw with a guide to get a straight reference edge.  If I need to flatten a face prior to thicknessing, a few minutes with a scrub plane (converted $10 wooden jack plane) does the trick. So, for me, the planer was the thing that got me over the hump and gave me the ability to be more creative and productive. You can also use it to turn 3/4" stock into 1/2" stock for drawer sides. So, my vote would be for the planer.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

5. 
   Knotscott | Jan 30, 2007 03:28pm | #8

   Hi Matt - What to get next depends alot on what you want to do.  A 12" BS will only give a resaw capacity that's similar to that of a TS (~ 6" or so), so you won't be gaining much other than curve cutting ability...something that can be done with a jigsaw...for a while anyway. 

   Similarly, lack of a DP can be overcome by using a drill. 

   A jointer or a planer will both give you a new capability that's tougher to duplicate with other methods....which leads to the "jointer or planer first" debate.  They both work best in tandem because they do different complimentary tasks.   A jointer's primary function is to flatten a face and an adjacent edge.  A planer's primary functions are to thin stock and make one side parallel to the other.  I vote planer first, since a planer can be coaxed into flattening a face with the help of a planer sled...but a jointer will struggle mightily trying to make to sides of a board flat and parallel to each other.   If the board is flat, edge jointing can be done with a router or TS until you pick up a jointer.

    

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/30/2007 7:30 am ET by Knotscott

6. 
   Riverprof | Jan 30, 2007 04:44pm | #9

   Think of table saw, jointer, and planer as engine, clutch, and transmission. You can do without a clutch, but would you want to?

   Also, think of the band saw as steering gear.

   In other words, these tools (along with your dust collector) all work together to make rough milled wood into square stock for more refined work. Many people have no choice but to get them one at a time, so the analogy to a car is not exact. And in that case it really should (ideally) be: table saw, try square, jointer plane, jack plane, scrub plane. Then start looking at power tools again.

   Rp

1. 
   kummell | Jan 31, 2007 07:44am | #13

   RP, I will admit, when I saw "planes" in your post, I immediately recoiled.  I don't have a lot of experience with them (besides fiddling around with a $30 groz low angle block plane that's been a bit frustrating).

   Beyond the lack of experience, I guess reading this forum, I got the impression that you either had to buy an antique plane or an LN plane...  so I'd dig around the woodcraft or lee valley website, see the ~$200 price for a LN plane and immediately close the webpage!

   The more I've been thinking about it, perhaps the thing to do it to buy a $20-40 plane off ebay and teach myself how to sharpen and tune it...  that idea's definitely starting to become more likely in my head.

   I'm still a bit intimidated by trying to tune up a hand tool on my own, with only the web and a book to guide my way... but what's the worst that can happen?  I ruin a $40 plane... 

   I'll keep playing with the idea, it may just happen here sometime soon...  expect a slew of clueless questions from me, even after I get that Garrett Hack book!

   Matt

1. 
   Riverprof | Jan 31, 2007 01:00pm | #14

   There are some people on this list who are going to pour cold water on your idea of getting a plane off of ebay and learning to tune it. You can ignore most of them.But if one of them suggests that you get at least two quality planes for the sum you have to spend (or perhaps just a little more, but for less than the cost of a jointer and a planer), and then explains how to go about taking a rough board and making it square and flat, then listen to that person's advice. Don't listen to truisms, platitudes, or cajoling. Listen to the person who tells you how to make a board square and flat.Rp (signing off)

   Edited 1/31/2007 5:06 am ET by Riverprof

1. 
   pzgren | Jan 31, 2007 08:41pm | #16

   Matt,

     I had thought about suggesting hand planes rather than tailed apprentices, but refrained, since you seemed fairly set on buying a jointer and thickness planer. But, since the good prof suggested the idea, I'll second it.

     Here's how to true a board by handraulics:

   _____

     Ideally, you need 5 planes: a scrub plane, a #5, a #7 or #8, a #4 or #4½, and a low angle block plane, but you can get away with a #5 and a low angle block plane -- it's just a little harder. (Or you can use wooden equivalents.)<!----><!----><!---->

     You'll also need a good straight edge, an accurate try or combination square, a marking/panel gauge, and a pair of winding sticks (you can make these yourself). A card scraper (with holder, if desired) is also handy.<!----><!---->

     Select a board face for the reference face. Use a pair of winding sticks and a straight edge to determine the high and low spots. Mark the high spots and use the scrub plane to reduce them to the approximate level of the rest of the board. Check for twist with the winding sticks. Correct with the scrub, as necessary. By this time, you should have a roughly flat (length and width) board with no twist and with a lot of troughs in it. Use the #5 to remove the troughs made by the scrub plane. (Planing diagonally or straight across the grain in both directions with the scrub plane and the #5 to remove the scrub troughs will significantly reduce tearout in most woods. Then follow up with the #5 by planing with the grain.) Once the troughs are mostly gone, use the #7 or #8 with the grain to plane the face flat. Once you get full length and full width shavings, your board is very, very close to FLAT. Check with the straight edge and winding sticks. Correct as necessary. Finish up with the smoothing plane (#4 or # 4½). Use the scraper on gnarly grain that gives your smoother a hard time, but be careful not to scrape a dip into the wood. Part 1 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Mark this face as your reference face. All other measurements of square, etc., will come from this face.<!----><!---->

     Select one long edge, and use the #5 to roughly flatten/smooth it, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. To do this, use your straight edge to find any local high spots and trim those with the #5 first. Then use the jointer plane to flatten. Be careful to keep the edge square to the reference face. Mark this edge as your reference edge. Part 2 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Use the reference edge and the try/combination square to mark one of the short edges square. Use a crosscut saw to saw (on the waste side!) almost to the marked line, if necessary. You can use the #5 to rough plane it flat and square to both the reference face and edge -- if the short edge is 4 to 6 or more inches wide; if not, then start with the LA block plane. (Chamfering the edges down to your cutting line will reduce tear out on the corner edges; alternative methods are to clamp a sacrificial piece of wood to the edge and let it tear out instead of your board, or to plane in from each outside edge.) Use the LA block plane to clean it up. Mark the other short edge to the desired length (saw it to rough length, if necessary) and do the same thing to the other short edge. Parts 3 and 4 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Use your combination square or a marking/panel gauge to mark the other (unplaned) long edge to the desired finished width. Saw to rough width, if necessary. As you did for the reference long edge, use the #5 to roughly smooth it down almost to the cutting line, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Check for straight and square to the reference face and to the 2 short edges. All 4 edges should now be square to the reference face and square to each other. Part 5 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Use your marking gauge, basing off the reference face, to mark the thickness of your board around all 4 edges. Flip the board over to the unplaned face and use the scrub plane to plane down almost to the marked reference lines (The bottoms of the troughs should be about 1/16th to 1/8th inch above the cutting line). Use the #5, and the #7 or #8, as before on the reference face, to make this face flat and square. Finish up with the smoothing plane and, as necessary, the scraper. Part 6 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     At this time, you should have a board with 2 flat, smooth, and parallel faces, 4 flat and square edges (long edges parallel to each other, as well as short edges parallel to each other, and all 4 edges square to the two faces and to each other), and of the required thickness, length, and width, ready for whatever needs to be done next.<!----><!---->

     The first board you do by hand will take what seems like an inordinately long time, but with just a little bit of practice, it becomes nearly as fast as -- and often faster than -- putting a board through a jointer, thickness planer, and sanding sequence.<!----><!---->

     If you have a shooting board, you can use it to assist with steps 2, 3, 4, and 5.<!----><!---->

   A couple of things to keep in mind:<!----><!---->

     Keep your plane irons SHARP!! Your iron is sharp enough if you are able to get fine shavings (not saw dust) from end grain on pine.....even with a jack plane or a jointer.

     If you have only a couple of planes, open the mouth up for the initial rougher planing, and close the mouth for the finer, finish planing.<!----><!---->

     Let the plane do the work -- don't force it.<!----><!---->

     Skewing the plane often helps to reduce tear out and makes planing easier.<!----><!---->

     Take deliberate, slow-to-moderate speed planing strokes. This helps maintain the plane vertical to the surface/edge of the board, and gives you better control over the quality of the planing.<!----><!---->

     To help keep the edges square to the reference face, keep the tote (rear handle) vertical (you can usually do this by feel); you can also help keep the edges square by hooking your thumb around the rear of the front knob and curling your fingers under the plane sole against the face of the board, using your fingers as a kind of fence (don’t do this if you’ll end up with a finger full of splinters).<!----><!---->

     Try to keep the amount of wood removed from each face roughly equal; otherwise any internal stresses present may cause the board to warp or cup again, after you have put all that work and effort into making it flat.<!----><!---->

     Expect to get a good upper body work out!<!----><!---->

     The listed sequence is not the only sequence that this can be done in, but it works quite well. One reason I use this sequence because it avoids having to go back to any previously planed surfaces. YMMV.<!----><!---->

   Good luck, and have fun! There's nothing quite like the sense of accomplishment you get when you have taken a piece of rough-sawn timber and turned it into a nicely finished, dimensioned board, using only hand-powered tools.Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!

   Tschüß!

   Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!

   James

7. 
   Lataxe | Jan 30, 2007 10:45pm | #10

   Matt,

   A jointer and planer seem indispensable, unless you want to be dependent on a woodstore, who will limit you to their stock types/sizes and charge you a big premium for planed timber over rougher stuff. It is also useful to be able to dimension salvaged or scavenged timber, which is often free.

   Whilst you can do straight edges with a router or even a better TS blade (if the TS is vibration free), a planer (what you call a jointer) will flatten the first face, as well as the edge, of planks.  You can't do the face with just a router or a TS, unless they are very narrow planks.

   If you don't make the first face flat then your plank will retain any bow or twist when you put it through the thicknesser (what you call a planer).  You can make a great big carriage so that bowed/twisted planks can be flattened with just a thicknesser, if you have the inclination to make this carriage; and the room to store it. 

   Get a planer/thicknesser, if you can.  Or both a planer (jointer) and thicknesser (planer) otherwise.  You'll save the outlay on them, in lesser timber costs, over the first few projects you build.  And you will have timber of the dimensions you require rather than of the dimensions the timber yard wants to sell you.

    A big BS is very useful for resawing Big Planks but it must come down your list a bit - unless you are doing lots of curves, in which case it's another must-have.  You don't need it for other dimensioning, as you have a mitre saw and TS already.

   A drill press would be next for me. Mine always seems to be needed.  Its surprising how often you need to drill a hole.  They are also useful for light drum sanding, if you do those curves.

   Floorstanding is most versatile and paradoxically takes least workshop room.  Don't think a mortising attachment will be much use, though.  Unless you have a very meaty and rigid drill press, or use only very small (and good quality) chisels, the whole contraption flexes and jams all too easily.

   You could buy a mortising machine.  I never have, on the grounds that it only makes a square hole, needs a near-perfect setup and doesn't produce holes that are terribly neat.  I have a friend with one; he seems to make steppy, raggy holes as often as decent ones.  I suppose the use of such a machine is about the skill, as with other machines. They do seem pernickety and limited in scope, though.

   If you are wanting to do lots of traditional joints but without handtools, I recommend a Woodrat.  It does DTs of every type and spacing, even narrow-neck ones.  It does very, very good mortises and tenons.  It does finger joints of any configuration.

   But it will also make over 100 other joints, including some very complex ones.  You can use it as an upside down router table.  You can even use it as a drill press (limited to the router plunge depth; although it also has the precision and work control/movement similar to an engineering mill press).

   The drawback is that the Woodrat requires quite a bit of learning.  It's easy to do the DTs, M&Ts and fingers.  After that, you are into multiple machine operations - a bit like having a CNC machine but you are the computer. You can use the router you already have with a Woodrat; or (in time) buy another to dedicate to the beast.

   You mention a lathe.  Once you have one, it seems to be busy.  You can suddenly make columns, round legs, chair parts and so forth.  It's also good to be able to make your own knobs for that special piece.  For spindle work you don't need top-of-the-range.  A long bed plus around 1HP is enough. 

   I have a Delta that has a variable speed gearbox and a swiveling motorhead - both useful features, especially the gearbox that requires no manual drivebelt-pulley changing.  The cast iron stand/base also provide lots of stability.  I have a friend with a lathe mounted on a thin sheet-steel base; this vibrates and walks with the least disturbance from an initially wobbly workpiece.

   But I did get along for the first 90 cabinets without a lathe.

   Anyway, I have rambled on and on too much again.  I hope some of it helps your decision-making.

   Lataxe

   PS Ooh, I forgot.  Never buy anything under $20,000.  (Blast, its my snobgeist got loose again)!

1. 
   kummell | Jan 31, 2007 01:21am | #11

   Thanks folks - great help.  It's amazing how my understanding and thought process can developing in just a few posts!

   Lataxe, it sounds like you're saying, next steps:

   American Jointer/British Planer

   American Planer/British Thicknesser

   or was it the other way around?  Too many contradictory uses of the same terms!

   I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but the next budgeted tool purchase is probably June-ish (but there's also a new truck purchase for Matt around that time, so it'll probably be another $300-400 purchase) - so I could do one then the other in a decent window.

   I've researched Jointers (american, that is) a bit and it looks like I can afford a bench-top or open stand 6" jointer...  as for planers (again, 'merican planers), it seems like I'm in the 12-13" range (is that the one you call a lunchbox?).

   As for the band saw, for the "cutting curves" part, I'm currently satisfied with a jigsaw.  A drill press is still interesting, but I'm convinced that getting it after jointer/planer makes sense.

    

   Thanks!

1. 
   Lataxe | Feb 01, 2007 02:44am | #17

   Matt,

   Sorry about the confusion in terms.

   In your lingo, get a jointer and a planer (both) as together they will allow you to make flat, straight, square planks which are the basis of all further work.  And you save money on timber costs. 

   If you could find one and afford it, get the European version that combines the two machines using a single motor/cutter head for both operations.  You then typically get a 10 inch jointer to go with your 10 inch planer and pay less than you would for separate machines of the same capacity.  It also takes up less floorspace.   But I believe they are hard to find in the US for a reasonable price.

   Lataxe

8. 
   cadiddlehopper | Jan 31, 2007 01:49am | #12

   Jointer. Period.

   I have never understood how WWers get by with a planer but no jointer. I have never seen a board at a lumber yard that did not need a pass over the jointer to straighten it. Maybe They have sources better than mine.

   Don't waste money on a 12" bandsaw. You can buy a 14" Delta or any number of its clones quite economically then upgrade it as you have the $$.

   For thinner drawer sides you might consider Baltic birch plywood. Dovetailing is then not a good option, but rabbeted joints work very well for things like kitchen cabinets. I have some 30-year old drawers with rabbeted joints with not a single failure.

   Good tenons can be made on a table saw. A tenoning jig is not expensive. Mortises can be chiseled as I did on my first high school project. Your plan to use an attachment on a drill press can work very well. The drill press needs to be quite strong to do a decent job, but a large motor is not required. In the mean time, the poster who suggested using different joints has a valid idea.

   I was just considering selling my lathe. I just don't have the time to devote to learning how to do good work with it. Good luck!

   Cadiddlehopper

9. 
   Floss | Jan 31, 2007 06:07pm | #15

   If you are building cabinets and purchasing S4S lumber, then get a Kreg jig to make the face frames and, as others said, a planer.

   You will need to have all of your stock the same thickness before joining the pieces with mortise and tenon, dowels, biscuits, or pocket screws. Plus you can use pocket screws to join the face frame to the cabinet box.

   J.P.

   http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
10. 
    bricky | Feb 01, 2007 09:16pm | #18

    You need a compressor and a finish nailer.Find a good lumber mill near you and you can have your lumber planed for you,And a router with an edge jointing bit will work for your edge jointing

1. 
   kummell | Feb 01, 2007 11:03pm | #19

   thanks bricky - I bought the PC compressor with 3 nailers last June - I've not used them much beyond putting beadboard panelling up, but I've got a few ideas in mind!