Replies

1. 
   _mj_ | Jan 04, 2022 09:35pm | #1

   An excellent plan. If the cabinets are down a bit from the ceiling go for 110 degree hinges. I have used gas struts from Selby with success.

   Don't buy struts so strong that closing the doors will be a struggle, they should handle the weight but not become a hazard. 44 pounds of strut for a 14 pound door might bite the user.

2. 
   esch5995 | Jan 05, 2022 08:18am | #2

   I know you have posted other questions regarding these cabinets and I believe you mentioned that you want to be able to stand under these cabinets without hitting your head as you get in and out of you car. Given that I urge you to consider the math involved with using a vertical opening door. If you mount the cabinets just 6' above the floor, I'm 6'3" so that would be a head banger for me, the top of your cabinet will be 90" above the floor. If you use a 95° hinge the leading edge of the open door will be about 93" above the floor. My vertical reach is just about 95" to my finger tips so on tip toes I could probably just reach and close that door, but remember it's 3" below the top of my head so I would need a hard hat. I doubt anyone shorter than 6' tall will be able to do it, also if the struts are too strong it will be an even greater challenge. If you want these cabinet to be your exclusive domain go for it, but if you want anyone under 6' tall to use these cabinets I would rethink the use of that style of door.

   I design and install kitchens for a living and occasionally have to deal with clients who ignore my advice and belatedly realize how difficult it is to actually use that style of door, some pay a steep price to have me retrofit expensive motorized hardware just so they can close their doors.

   Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. There are times in life where we should remember the KISS principle (I will leave it to you to figure that one out) and this may be one of them.

3. 
   Fly2High | Jan 05, 2022 09:34am | #3

   esch5995,
   thank you for those facts. I will look deeper into it. I really appreciate your professional insight. If you do not mind, I will give you some more details of my situation and let me know what you would suggest.

   As a pro, what do people do with full height (8' or 9' ceiling) kitchen cabinets? How do they use the upper shelves? Same situation with over the fridge cabinets. This was my thinking with these cabinets. Probably, no matter how I make them, they will need a one or two step stool to reach. I am not sure if the door swing will matter if I am that high but I am open to suggests.

   This is my dilemma. My garage ceiling is 94" high and only deep enough to fit a car before I hit the bathroom wall. The bathroom juts into the garage from the left wall and alongside that is a floor standing metal utility shelf (3ft wide) which might get replaced one day. As you walk along the shelf, you will reach a door into the house. Over the car hood and along the bathroom wall is a shelf that is about 3' deep and has 44" of clearance under it so that a small SUV or car will fit under to help with storage space. Sorry, no SUV is going into this garage. They can sleep outside. This is meant for my baby - my Mustang GT. Down the right side of the ceiling I am hanging several ladders. Along the right wall opposite the metal shelf leading to the entry door I have hung on a 10-20 deg. angle three bicycles in the path to the door into the house (or whatever the handlebars hitting on the wall and tires create) by the front tire vertically. Hung this way, the handlebars are above hood height or down the path behind the bathroom. Since I expect the right side of the garage to be use to walk into the house, maybe, I am not planning anything deep there. On the left side at the opening of the garage is the usual lawn tools and such. I might change the right side and tool area over to French cleats for better usage of the space. This only leaves me with over the driver's door and the ceiling at the back half of the garage over the garage door. I am thinking of using the space over the garage door similar to what a South African woodworker who made a shelf unit that swings down from the ceiling. I was planning of taking that one step further by using the back of the unit to store two screen door panels The hinge point would be close to a crossbeam where the garage door stops when up. Thinking of covering the door panels with a 1/4" panel just to keep dirt and dust off them. Yeah, the shelves will not be all that deep and I would need to move the car and close the garage door to access it but it is better than nothing. Still in the rough idea stage on that unit. The cross beam makes either the screen door storage or the top shelf difficult or impossible so I may need to lose one. I figure I would use those hideaway shelves for car wash and detailing supplies since I always pull the car out to do that. Garage is too small to do inside. I have plenty of microfiber towels, polishing pads and such that could use the space. If I was a real wise guy, I would use a keyed French cleat(key is to lock in place) to mount each shelf so I could unhook them from the lift and place them on a mobile cart. The cart would be 'L' shaped with wheels and the shelves would just hook on it allowing me to roll out the items I need since I will have to lift the unit back up in order to get out of the garage :). I would add gas struts to aid in raising and lowering the unit. I think KISS went out the window a long time ago with this one. I know.

   Part of the reason for going with lift up doors on the cabinets was so that I would not hit the items on the shelf (over the hood of the car) or the cross beam or the garage door mechanism since these will be mounted in the 6ft between all that.

   Yeah, it is a tight squeeze.

   I must say, I am really appreciating all the feedback and have enjoyed learning from skilled and professional woodworkers.

   Thank you.

   sincerely,
   Frank

4. 
   Fly2High | Jan 05, 2022 10:16am | #4

   Based on esch comments, I modified this posting (thanks)

   A few additional thoughts on the lift up cabinets.

   I would not have the car in the garage when I try to access them. No way would I risk something dropping and hitting the car.

   To reach the door which would be mounted so that it swings up to 90 degrees at most. Could do slightly less too. Need room for the handle and need to reach so I would not have them go up above 90 degrees.

   Since the door is 18" (or less) tall and the cabinet is 12" deep, that puts it 2.5 ft from the wall. This is another reason I would not access these shelves with the car in the garage. The car, any car, is a tight fit in the garage. I would need to lean onto the car to access the shelves and I would not want that too.

   At 6' 1", I can reach a 8ft ceiling flat footed but just my fingertips.

   I was thinking they will be French cleat mounted. I figure mounting them with a 76" clearance would leave me with 3" over my head and put the top of the cabinet at 94". I need some space for French cleats (I was thinking about 1-2" to clear the cleat) so that will not work at that mounting height. I would be against the ceiling at mounting height with no room to lower onto the cleat. Might need to directly mount to the wall or change my dimensions and mounting height.

   I decided to simulate the shelf with a cardboard box. A single step just 10 inches high grants me access and makes it trivial to reach the door the way I plan on mounting them. This places the top of the floor of the cabinet just under my chin. If I make the stepstool 12" high, I think it will be OK.

   Am I off base? no, I'll answer this - I WAS off base. Thanks for the corrections.

1. 
   esch5995 | Jan 05, 2022 01:03pm | #7

   Before you go any further redo your math. If you mount an 18" high cabinet 76" above the floor the top will be at 94" not 88". If your ceiling height is 94" French cleats are not an option since you need space to drop the cabinets on the French cleat typically 3-4". A cabinet with an external height of 18" is marginal for an adjustable shelf since the usable shelf storage height is only 15¾" divided equally that gives less than 8" of height for each shelf. Assuming the midway shelf is somewhere near the center you should be able to reach it easily without a step stool since it would be approximately 84" above the floor. If on the other hand you intend to use French cleats you will need to keep the cabinet height around 14-15" max and a mid shelf is probably out of the question since storage height is 2¼" less than the external height assuming 3/4" material.

1. 
   Fly2High | Jan 05, 2022 02:42pm | #8

   yes, you are right. I had the depth too much on the brain. newbie error. Thanks for the catch. This is what also happens when you do things in a room with 8ft ceilings and mix up width and length. Suddenly your math gets screwed up.

   Why do I need so much room to lower the cabinet in the case of a French cleat? If the cleat is 3/4" shouldn't the wedge also be no taller than 3/4" if cut on a 45 deg? a 45 has equal x and y axis changes. Sure, I would need a little more than 3/4" for a margin of error and such but why would I need more than say 2 inches?

   I guess I could skip the French cleat and just screw it directly to the wall. I will have a back panel of 3/4" which I think should be more than enough.

   If 2 inches is enough, I could lower the base height to 75" (still 2 inches above my head) and change the cabinet height to 17" to gain my 2 inches.

   I could also hope old age will shrink me some. Just a little levity. I have forced hot air in the house and my basement ceiling is also low. Right across the middle of the basement, they ran the ductwork. The bottom of the ductwork sits right at forehead level. You have no idea how many times I got smacked in the head. Might also be the reason for the math errors. Makes we want to switch to hot water heating. Of course, my wife is only 5' 3" and it never phases her. If I tuck my chin fully, I too can miss it but I have to remember to do that. Sucks not having enough height.

   Is the large gap you suggest to lower to accommodate an uneven ceiling or what?

   So if I want to use a French cleat, I would have to mount to no higher than 72" off the floor at best? I can feel a headache or a series of bumps coming.

   Thanks again for the catch.

   Really appreciate the help. Been great so far.

1. 
   esch5995 | Jan 05, 2022 03:55pm | #9

   French cleats are usually cut from a minimum of 2" wide 3/4" stock. If the bevel is cut at 45° then you will have 1¼" of surface against the back of your cabinet, pretty much the minimum to provide a stable mounting surface and not risk wood splitting. Since to install the cabinets you need to lift them above the 2" cleat the clearance you need is 2" plus the 3/4" thickness of the top so a 3" gap only allows 1/4" for ceiling discrepancies not enough margin of error in my opinion. The other factor involved with French cleats is that the bottom will be lower than anticipated by the amount you allowed for wiggle room at the top.

1. 
   Fly2High | Jan 05, 2022 06:13pm | #10

   Not sure why I have to lift over the 2" cleat?

   Let's say I want to mount a cabinet with a 3/4" ply French cleat at 70" (hypothetical example) the cleat will be 3" cut at a 45 deg so that the short side is 2.25". It will be mounted flush with the exterior top of the cabinet, long side away and down from the top edge of the cabinet.

   To mount this cabinet at 70" off the ground, I would mount the other 3" piece at 67.75" off the ground with the long side away from the wall. I am measuring to the top of the long side for that measurement.

   Since the cleat on the back of the cabinet is 3" long and the top of the wall half is at 67.75" off the ground, wouldn't I only need to lift the cabinet some amount over 3" over the wall half to mount the cabinet? The wall half is at 67.75". Wouldn't lifting the top edge of the cabinet over 70.75" allow me to mount the cabinet on the cleat? When they engage, the cabinet would drop 3/4" to a final height of 70".

   From my thinking, I only need to lift the cabinet some amount over 3/4" above the mounting height as measured from the top of the cabinet. This is why I was thinking I only need 1-2 inches of clearance above the cabinet to mount the cabinet this way onto the wall.

2. 
   esch5995 | Jan 06, 2022 07:34am | #11

   I probably didn't express myself clearly. So I will try again.

   You need to mount the top of the wall cleat below the ceiling using this formula.

   Width of the cleat+top panel thickness+wiggle room=distance from the ceiling

   So if you use a 2" wide cleat and 3/4" plywood and want 1/2" of wiggle room to account for drywall discrepancies you would mount the wall cleat 3¼" below the ceiling. When you mount the cabinet it will drop down 1¼" which is the ¾" thickness of the cleat plus the ½" of wiggle room. This will result in the cabinet being 1¼" below the ceiling and lower than you were planning. Given your tight space I would recommend foregoing the cleats and just direct mount the cabinets to the wall with cabinet mounting screws, don't use drywall screws.

5. 
   Fly2High | Jan 05, 2022 11:19am | #5

   For those who want to do their own calculations, I found this graphical calculator and though they will recommend a set of their struts but I figure you could take the results anywhere as long as they are decent struts.

   https://www.gasspringsshop.com/gas-spring-calculator/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAoNWOBhCwARIsAAiHnEiYjx6qHzPDLTJASXwZvtg7EI338ldbGSWwebfuPAoNpIZppeNp6soaAiLUEALw_wcB

   For my application, they suggest a pair of their 6-15-100 strut which is a 100N strut.

   Rod 6mm (0.24″)
   Cylinder 15mm (0.59″)
   Stroke 100mm (3.94″)
   Length 232mm (9.13″)
   Force 100N
   Thread M5 (metric)
   Progression 33%

6. 
   Fly2High | Jan 05, 2022 11:22am | #6

   If what I offer for usability is sound and it seems my thinking on struts will work.

   What hinges can I use?

   Is Blum a good brand? Anything from them that will work?

   Any other brand ?

   I think the strut calculator is suggesting 38lbs of force on the hinge point if that helps.

   Thank you.

7. 
   Fly2High | Jan 07, 2022 09:00am | #12

   esch5995,
   Thank you for the Jan 6th explanation. That I fully understand now.

   Thank you for taking the time to help me out.

   With much appreciation,
   Frank