What type of sharpening stones?
zombeerose
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi All,
I am trying to make a decision and find a good system for sharpening my chisels and planes.
1) I wanted to find out what type of sharpening stones (and system) everyone uses – arkansas, diamond, etc?
2) Why did you choose the type of stones you use?
3) If you had to purchase a new system, would you choose something different?
Thanks for the feedback.
Z
Replies
Z,
Investigate the "Scary Sharp" sandpaper sharpening system. Graded papers up to 2000 grit. It's inexpensive. It's easy to do. It works. Once your tools are in correct shape (backs of chisels and plane irons flat and polished, etc.), a few seconds with the Scary Sharp method whenever sharpening is needed, will have you back at work very quickly.
I have 2 waterstones, one a combination 1000/6000 and an 8000. Honing on these does not produce any appreciable change in the cutting action of my tools after a microbevel is formed with 2000 grit wet-or-dry paper.
Rich
I started with water stones, went to diamond and water stones and finally got myself a Tormek. With the Tormek I can put a new edge on anything in my shop except saw blades (including my 20" planer blades). I did build my own buffer using an old furnace fan motor and a hard and medium felt wheel mounted on an arbour from Lee Valley.
With that system I have repeatablility, speed and get an edge that is certainly sharp enough to do just about anything I need to do. By the time it was all said and done, the Tormek, with jigs cost less than what I spent on all the waterstones and diamond stones I have. I still use the stones for lapping the backs of plane irons and for scrapers, only because I have them. Most of the lapping work is done with sandpaper on a $40 granite surface plate.
My suggestion is to take a close look at what you will spend on a Tormek compared to the waterstones and diamond stones you will need. I'm not saying that stones don't or won't work, I just found that for me, the Tormek was a better way.
Doug
I too own a Tormex system, For rounded chisels and other such lathe tools it's the only way to sharpen, however Fine wood working had an article a while back that compared the results under a microscope of virtually every method of sharpening out there..
For low cost and fine results the best methods is Scary Sharp (ie, using sandpaper on a piece of glass) but that only works on flat items and you'll need to fabricate some kind of jig to ensure that you retain the correct angle. After several resharpenings with the scary sharp method I noticed the tools not cutting as well as originally. I set the Tormex up to the correct angle and then finished everything offagain with the scary sharp method and I was back in business..
There were several stones that worked well but require that you keep the stone lubricated and somehow avoid getting contamination on the stone. (just one piece of airborne grit will ruin the edge of any cutting tool).. avoiding contamination is too difficult in my shop thus I use the scary sharp as a final finish and use the Tormex to ensure that the angle remains correct..
I agree with the tormak,its worth the money and does a very consistant job of sharpening,I don't know why so many guys knock it,I have very sharp and easy to use chisels,plane blades,scraper blades etc etc. The only draw back is the price of the jigs,you'd think at 400 plus they could toss in a couple.
1/ King Japanese water stones
2/ good balance between affordable cost and cutting speed
3/ having tried oil stones and scarey sharp... I'll stick with the water stones...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I have 220 ($22 at toolsforworkingwood.com) 1000 ($30 from Lie-Nielsen at a WW show) and 8000 ($50 at WoodCraft) waterstones. For accessories I have a granite lapping plate ($30 at WoodCraft) and a couple of jigs. The L-N rep showed me a simple but repeatable system for setting the jig, and I find that it works well; I just glued stop blocks a pre-determined distance from the straight edge of a set-up board. I put the edge against the stop block and bring the jig up against the set-up board and tighten it up. Labeled each one--30 deg., 25 deg., etc. Simple, quick, effective and cheap. The L-N guy liked the Eclipse style jig, hated the Lee Valley; but I got both, and I'm glad b/c the Eclipse-style doesn't hold smaller chisels well at all.
Now, Scary Sharp may be cheaper at first, but I have no supplies to replace except that I need 120 grit SC paper to flatten the 220 grit stone; otherwise, each stone can flatten the grit above. Rinse after flattening to remove the larger grit from the newly flattened stone.
I haven't used oilstones of any quality. I expect they'd be the most cost effective for the long haul b/c they wear the slowest. But the waterstones seem like the best balance to me.
Charlie
I've had a couple of DMT diamond stones for 15 + - years. They have been used for everything, are still flat and cutting well. The fine stone must be about 800. For most utility edges I follow up with a leather strop. The coarse diamond is fast at repairing nicks. These diamonds work with water so there is no oily mess. They don't show any signs of wear despite thousands of sharpening's.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Here's the system I use. I went to a glass store and purchased 2 pieces of plate glass, 4 x 12 x 1/4 . Cost less than $10. Went to Klingpoor and purchased Silicon carbide sand paper 400 and 800 grit. Finer grits are available. Cut the paper to size and coat with a spray adhesive to attach to the plate glass. I built a shelf that holds the two pices of glass in place with strips of wood for my sharpening station. This is about the same as the scary sharp system for a lot less bucks. I have used this to sharpen all my chisels and plane blades without any difficulty.
Zombee,
It looks like I'm the old geezer in this thread.
I have a Norton fine India benchstone, and a medium Arkansas that I use for plane irons and bench chisels. I was given a surgical black Arkansas benchstone, but seldom use it. I have similar sets of slipstones for carving and turning tools.
These were the sharpening stones that were used in the three shops I worked at, before opening my own.
I'm set in my ways, so am not looking to change. If it ain't broke, etc, etc.
Long time ago, I was given a set of the tapered, hollowed out, cone shaped stones allegedly for turning tools. Anyone out there use and like them? I found that the shape was just right to dub off the edge of any gouge.
Regards,
Ray
Ceramics or oilstones.
Waterstones are a hassle to me - you have to use another system to keep them flat which necessitates owning lapping plates, diamond stones, or sandpaper on glass. In other words, to use waterstones you end up owning two or at a minimum one and a half sharpening systems. Oilstones might need flattening years from know if used hard everyday. The ceramics most likely will never have to be flattened. Ditto surgical Arkansas stones.
Sandpaper on glass is the cheapest to get started, but the glass plate takes up a good bit of space. This system is great for plane blades and chisels but not so great for drawknives, inshaves, etc. You have to spray mount the paper and scrape it off when you need to change out. Sometimes you can get it to cling with water (the higher grit wet/dry papers), but this is a hassle.
Bar far the cleanest and simplest system is a set of ceramic stones. They can be used dry. You might have to add a coarse Crystolon stone for occassional rough grinding as ceramics don't come in coarse (enough) grits. In this scenario, you would have four, maybe three stones - a coarse Crystolon oilstone, medium, fine and extra-fine ceramic stones. You can probably do without the fine ceramic as you can go from the medium to the extra fine in most circumstances. For this set up you're probably looking at about a hundred bucks.
Charles,
Are you referring to Shapton stones specifically? (I don't know any other brand of ceramic.) If so, what grits do you reccommend? By the way I think that Shapton does offer some coarse grits (200 or something if my memory serves me correctly).
I am currently using sandpaper. It has worked well for me. However, I was thinking about switching to stones because the scraping spent paper/adhesive is starting to get old. I was thinking about oilstones, because I don't want to be a slave to keeping waterstones flat. I considered Shaptons; but they are expensive and they recommend buying some accessories to keep them flat.
Cheers
Kyle
No, I'm not referring to Shapton stones. I haven't checked, since I already owned stones, but I believe Shaptons are pretty expensive.
You can find "plain Jane" ceramics at highlandhardware.com or do a search for Spyderco ceramic stones.
Your overriding goal in the shop, as far as edge maintenance is concerned, is to not let the process of sharpening tools become an obssession that keeps you from getting work done.
Let the ceramics sit in the tool well ready for a quick honing. The less you make a production out of honing, the better. Oilstones are my next choice, only slightly behind ceramics, because of the requirement to use oil to float the particles away.
As I mentioned before, I don't like waterstones. I tried them. Of course they work, but I didn't like maintaining a 'pond' and I didn't like flattening them. Any incremental increase in sharpness (and that's somewhat arguable) is not worth the hassle. Much better to be able to do quick, no hassle honings to KEEP the edge serviceable than to schlep out the waterstones, worry if they're flat, and then finally get around to honing. I'm not a huge fan of water on cutting tools either. If I were you I'd settle on a dry system (scary sharp or ceramics) or oil stones. Ceramics can be used with water, but it's not a requirement as it is for waterstones.
Edited 1/11/2005 2:07 pm ET by cstan
Charles,
Thanks for your response. Do you use water with your ceramics or just use them dry? Shapton (I think) requires one to use water.
"Your overriding goal in the shop, as far as edge maintenance is concerned, is to not let the process of sharpening tools become an obssession that keeps you from getting work done." I couldn't agree more.
One more thought on waterstones and their required ponds. I live in Rochester, NY and have an unheated shop. I can imagine me leaving the pond in the shop only to came back the next day to find them frozen and ruined.
Thanks
Kyle
I use my ceramics dry. I scrub them in the kitchen sink once a month. I use Bon Ami, but Comet works fine - chlorine not a problem.
Don't know much about Shaptons, but I think they are some sort of hybrid that requires the use of water. That's a knockout blow as far as I'm concerned.
hi. i started to use the scarry smart method after finding my oil stones took too long.
i solved the scrape and clean problem by scraping off the paper quickly and cleaning off the glass with "goop off". works great
len
Use silicon carbide wet-or-dry paper and soak the paper first. It'll stick to your flat surface like a charm.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Thanks for the tip.
Cheers
Kyle
I use Norton waterstones. 2 1000 grits, 1 4000 grit, and 1 8000 grit. The 1000's flatten each other, the 4000 is flattened by a 1000, and the 8000 is flattened by the 4000. Water stones do have to be flattened very often but this is because they cut the metal so fast. The trade off is between speed of polishing and the frequency of flattening. Waterstones work the fastest and therefore need to be flattened most frequently.
Having read every article, book and web site that I could find over the past few years in regard to sharpening.....Sharpening becomes a personal thing/preference.
The Gurus, Lee, Charlesworth, Nielsen etc. etc. all agree on one thing even though they have a preferential system......."All the systems work; Find the one you like and can AFFORD; Stick with one system/perfect it and be comfortable with it."
Sort of a side note......I tried about 10 ways to prepare a "simple" scraper. They are all OK but I finally came across a system in a publication that I felt I could use (little more time involved, 2 min. :-) ) but my scraper shavings are now like the pros brag about.
As you can see from the replies to this question of yours .......some people like water stones, some the scary sharp system (go to google and hit "scary sharp" amazing amout of info), some oil stones, some Tormak.......Therefore, if there was one real perfect system you would not have received many different answers/responses.
You have to make up your own mind...each system has good and bad points....but JUST GO FOR IT AND CHOOSE ONE!! Try it many times and it will do ok for you.
Dick
Thanks for the reply Dick.
I know...I just need to bite the bullet and choose one system. I guess by requesting to hear the general concensus, I was also able to hear the pros and cons for the different systems from the experts who actually use the systems as compared to the marketing hype that is fluffed up and makes everything smell like lilacs.
Z
OK....some of the stuff that is marketed does not smell exactly like lilacs...It has the smell of the old Momfort Feedlots north of Greely, Colorado on a warm Spring day and a north wind:-)
Dick
For those of you using waterstones... is there anything really 'wrong' w/ the King stones, other than they need flattened more often? Thanks,Monte
Hello. I used to have King stones that Lee Valley carries. I took a week long hand tool class with my Lie-Nielsen distributor and by the end of the week I bought the Nortons. They cut much faster and therefore they need to be flattened more frequently than the Kings, but it is so easy that it really is not an issue. I mainly switched because the Kings always had a sticky feel to them, and they where slowly but surely delaminating from the bases. If you do buy them try to get ones that do not have bases and I would not purchase double grit stones. I still have a 1000 4000 combo stone that once it became worn by about a 1/3 it started to warp quite badly. The Kings work, they are a lot cheaper, but side by side with the Nortons you would prefer to use the Nortons.
Monte..
Waterstones are a mix of Aluminium oxide grit held in a weaker substrate; the oxide's the stuff that does the cutting. The clay substrate breaks down quite rapidly, constantly exposing fresh sharp oxide to the blade which is how they manage to cut so fast..
The down side of this is that the rapid break-down of the clay causes the face of the stone to loose its flatness; no matter how careful you are to use as much of the stone as poss, you'll never get a perfectly even wear rate right across the stone, hence the need for frequent flattening. Now... we're not talking about the stone worn away to look like a saddle back ridge here... it's only marginally out of flat, making the flattening literally a 1-2 minute job. Rub the stone you're working with against a courser stone till the wear pattern looks fresh right across the stone. An that's it... Takes about as much time to do that as it does to re-hone your blade edge...
Personally I don't see that as any hardship and it's certainly not a fault, just a side effect of the fast cutting action. Bottom line.... are Nortons better...?... I honestly donno... my Kings are more than good enough for me... don't feel the requirement to find out... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Ah, yes, the fragrance of nature...sometimes we can smell it clear down here in Boulder...CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Dick,
Well, now you have to reveal your method of scraper sharpening. Todd
I use a system described by a Tom Caspar in the September 2003 issue of American Woodworker. I can't say exactly why this works for me as I have been using scrapers for a very long time. I saw a vast improvement after I used the "system" once and the scrapers get better each time. I now go from thickness planer to scraper to 180 grit and then to 220 if required for the piece I am making.
I used to go this route...Thickness Planer/drum sander/120 grit hand sand (or random orbital)/ 150/180. Cutting out a few steps has saved many hours.
There are many things that hand planes are still used for etc. However for scrappers I like Caspers System.
To digress....The title of Caspars' article is "Foolproof Scraper Sharpening". I get a smile when I read a lot of titles (FW included) because they remind of golf articles like..."Save 16.5 putts per round with this new/revolutionary......". I normally think OH SURE!!
To conclude....I am a big fan of Charlesworth because he goes BACK TO BASICS in lieu of a new gimmick that will solve all of our frustrations and isn't worth the powder to blow it........
Keep it Simple Dick
Would you share the reference to the article on sharpening scrapers?
DOug
you talk about a system for scraper sharpening. Where did you find that info? thanks
So how do you sharpen your scrapers? My jig works good, but I've always believed that I could get more from them. I'm up for any improved methods...
thnx in advancescottd.
scottdDamschroder Scott Furniture[email protected]A craftsman needs three things: Accuracy, Technique, and Quality. Accuracy can be set; technique can be learned; but quality must be bought and built.
Thanks to everyone for their comments. All your feedback is greatly appreciated.
I will look at the "Scary Sharp" system although as it was pointed out, their really aren't any supplies to replace with other systems. Secondly, the system could be cheaply mimicked via glass plates and sandpaper like Warrenspahr explained.
One thing I have learned when purchasing my tools is that saving money up front is not always the cheapest option. More $ is needed to accomodate the short comings and then extra time is spent dealing with those short falls, which means less time is spent doing something enjoyable.
Waterstones appear to be a very popular option that is reasonably priced. I have no doubt that the Tormek is a great system and deserves every penny for the price tag. Maybe one day I will be able to justify the "Rolls Royce" to my better half.
I was not aware of ceramic stones. Heck, until a couple months ago, I wasn't aware of knives made from ceramics. Does anyone else have experience with ceramics?
Z
http://www.antiquetools.com
Use there method. Learn to do it without any jigs; it's easier and faster.
Consider the oil stones they reccomend. Very little or no maintence.
I got a Tormek, but find that both scary sharp and waterstones gives me a better edge.
I used scary sharp with glass and 3M abrasive film - http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=THS
But now I'm returning to my waterstones - at least giving them a try. I saw David Charlesworth's 2 DVD's "Plane Sharpening" and "Hand Planning", and I'm impressed. For your plane blades you only need a 800 grit and a 8000 grit. And his method is extremely fast, resharpening in minutes. I highly recommend his 2 DVD's. 3 new DVD's are coming - around February - all about advanced hand planning.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/library.html?cat=6 or http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/
Ole
.... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....
"I got a Tormek, but find that both scary sharp and waterstones gives me a better edge.
I used scary sharp with glass and 3M abrasive film - http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=THS
But now I'm returning to my waterstones - at least giving them a try."
So, let's recap - you own a Tormek, a scary sharp set-up, and waterstones?
Can I farm out my edges to your shop? My God, you must have the sharpest tools on the planet.
Edited 1/12/2005 12:09 pm ET by cstan
This is my question about sharpening. The tedious yet important part of the process is the first part: grinding the initial bevel, even and square to the edge. What methods to folks around here use to do that? A grinding wheel with a jig? A belt sander? I have to admit that I haven't found a "perfect" approach yet. Taking a plane blade from a 25 degree bevel to a 20 degree bevel on a waterstone ain't no fun.
Hi Mark,We grind them with a tool rest angled to give a (say) 25-28 degree grind on the blade, and move the blade freehand across the tool rest.Cheers,eddie
I typically do it that way also, but I don't always manage to get a smooth edge. Skill is a helpful thing!
Mark,the three key points we had drummed into us were:1. stand to the side of the wheel so that the hands move in a natural forward/back motion. If you're in front of the wheel, the hands have to move in an awkward manner to keep a straight line2. light touch on the wheel - pretend you're trying to shave the surface of the wheel with the blade.3. don't hold the blade too firmly - light finger pressure is all it takes.Cheers,eddie
Mark...
I've just bought a powered water stone, not a Tromec, this one has the 1000 grit stone mounted horrizontally. Water feed is from a small tank above the stone. I've only used it so far to flatten the blades on some newly aquired moulding planes; some having had better care than others. I mention it because it sure beats doing this by hand.
It comes c/w a blade rest that's adjustable in both height and pitch, although I can't comment on how usefull it is yet. Cost was about 30% of the Tromec.Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
What is the product? Are you saying the tool edge is being ground by the "side" of the stone? My problem with that approach has been that if you have a wide plane blade there is a really big difference between the grinding on the outside edge, where the stone is turning faster, and the inside edge, where the stone is turning slower, so you don't get a straight edge on the tool. Do you not find that to be a problem?
Mark...
the product is a Rexon WG 180A wet stone grinder. http://www.rexon.co.uk/
re maintaining a straight edge against the speed differential.. I don't see it being any harder than working a wide blade on a narrow stone; both instances need the operator to have his wits about him, moving the work piece over the stone to suit.I'm not saying it's going to replace my bench stones, far from it. However, it makes light work of bulk material removal. I've discovered over the past couple of evenings that it's perfect for flattening blades. Polishing them on the bench stones should be a breeze now....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Yep you are right :-)
I started with the tormek - a friend of mine sharpen his kitchen knifes that way - I got interested and invested in the small (blue) model. - http://www.tormek.se/index_gb.htm - After some time I wasn't quite happy with the edge I got, and invested in some waterstones and a honing guide to get an even better edge.
They produce a better edge, but I got tired flattening the stones all the time. Trying Scary sharp wasn't that expensive, getting a piece of glass and some wet/dry paper or abrasive film, already had the honing guide. It also produces a really fine edge, and no need for flattening the stones.
But then I saw David Charlesworth's DVD "Plane sharpening" and wanted to try his method of sharpening and returned to my waterstones. And I must say that I'm really impressed; in no time I got the sharpest (and curved) plane blade and are able to cut unbelievable thin (unmeasurable) shavings leaving a silk smooth surface on oak, fir and other woods. I even cut oak endgrain with my #4 bench plane. If you haven't guessed already I'm convinced that waterstones is all you need :-) Sharpening the way I learned from the DVD causes minimum wear on the stone and therefore minimum flattening. I will admit though, that the Tormek is nice for grinding a new bevel etc.
Ole.... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....
Good stuff. You are the first person that I have seen here to use this method. I will never go back!
Tormex is what you use for lathe tools like gouges and such. no other system seems to be able to maintain a consistant angle of round type chisels. Tormexis also fast when it comes to returning the correct bevelon chisels and such and does so without losing temp the way most ginding wheel set-ups do..
But the Tormex system lives a slightly rolled cutting edge that scary sharp and yes stones can remove there was an artlce no too long ago about all of the sharpening methods..
True, but I get the impression this guy was not using his Tormek for turning tools. I got the whiff of a serial sharpener.
Once he bought the Tormek, he should have been done. One can certainly work up serviceable chisels and plane irons with one.
Can you use a Wolverine jig with a Tormek?
I have read all the threads on this subject and have a few simple questions:
Is there really a practical difference, between a plane iron, or chisel when honed at 1000 grit, compared to 8000 grit?
I know you will se a difference under a microscope, and at 8000 probably shave hair like a razor, but is there really a practical improvement of worthy significance?
Also, how long does an 8000 grit razor sharp edge last, or is it gone in the first few minutes of using the tool?
There is no practical difference and there is also the matter of grit equivalents to deal with.
I can tell you that an edge worked on 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper, a surgical Arkansas stone, or an ultra-fine ceramic stone is all the edge you'll ever need.
Cstan,
Thanks, I believe I now understand that there is confusion about different standards.
A USA 700 grit is equal to a Japanese 2000 grit.
A USA 2200 grit is equal to a Japanese 8000 grit.
From the earlier posts, this means if someone sharpens scary at 2000 grit, it is close to 8000 on a Japanese water stone.
It also means I have bought the wrong water stone, being a 1000/6000 combination. Damn!
Think what I'll do is go 350 diamond, 750 diamond and 8000 water, that should do it. I'll use the 750 to flatten the 8000, with a few strokes after each use.
That's exactly right. You can bee-bop down to Auto Zone and buy 2000 grit wet/dry paper and have the polishing equivalent of about an 8000 grit waterstone.
If you catch your edges before they're too far gone you can skip the diamond stones all together.
You could use a 1000/8000 combo waterstone and be fine.
You can regrind bevels by hand with a jig and 60 grit paper on a piece of MDF. You don't need a perfectly flat surface to regrind a bevel. You do need a flat surface when you first flatten the BACKS of your irons and chisels. That flat surface can be the stones themselves, glass, or granite depending on where you end up.
Once you regrind the bevel, take the blade straight to your 1,000 to form the secondary. One you see an even secondary a scant 64th wide all the way across the implement go to your 8,000 for final polishing. Shouldn't take very many strokes on a waterstone to wrap up.
Then why does my 8000 grit Japanese water stone feel far, far, far smoother than 2000 grit wet or dry? In fact, my 1000 grit water stone feels smoother than 2000 grit wet or dry.
Also, the polish from the 8000 water stone is definitely higher than on 2000 wet or dry. I don't use the water stone much any more, as I don't perceive any improvement in cutting by going that high in polish, but it is finer.
Rich
Edited 1/14/2005 2:54 pm ET by Rich14
Grit equivalents are approximate, don't try this at home, professional driver on a closed course....
I'm about done with my office and computer work for the day. I think I'll go plane some wood with a dull No. 4. Care to join me?
Edited 1/14/2005 3:14 pm ET by cstan
Hell, I don't know the answer to your question, but thought I just got re-educated by researching this link:
http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/030.html
Think it an Aussie fellow (also known as bloke) who offers new wisdom....
That's an interesting site.
I'll make a stab at answering my own question. The 8000 waterstone is friable and the slurry of broken Aluminum Oxide abrasive particles probably cut just as well as the 2000 Silcon Carbide, but create a finer scratch pattern because the particles break down so finely.
The 2000 Silicon Carbide particles do not break, but dull while staying just as large as when they are sharp. Leaving a more visible texture to the polished surface.
Yes? No?
Rich
Getting too technical for me.
I'll do some honing on my 750 diamond stone, some on my 1000 water stone and some on my 6000 water stone over the week-end. On Monday back at work, I'll go to the lab here and put them under a microscope, to see if I can learn more.
Sounds about right.... but thesedays I take all the guesswork out by hitting the smoother blade with a 12,000 grit stone... talk about effortless cutting... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I don't wanna say Charles is wrong, but everything I've read, and more importantly, experienced says yea.... there's a hellova difference between polishing to 8000 and leaving the iron at 1000. Bear in mind, I'm talking waterstone grit here, not sand paper.
Left at 1000 grit, the cutting edge will look like the lead edge of a comb; the deep grooves worn by the course grit will leave a series of bumps and hollows, giving a serrated edge. The effort required to push this edge through stock is quite considerable, the resultant surface leaves a lot to be desired.
The finer grit sizes in the polishing stones will gradually wear down the bumps left by the course grits; the cutting edge gets more refined, requiring less effort to push through stock, and leaving a far smoother finish.
As for longevity... that's harder to call; it's proportional to the blade material, aggressiveness of the cut, hardness of the stock being worked and a bunch more besides. If it's any help though, on the few occasions I've had peace to spend all day, every day in the shop planing stock for a project, I've been able to work all day getting by with a quick hone first thing in the morning. That said, even that was mostly to do with shaking morning cobwebs from my head than through the blade needing a hone. I use L-N A2 steel. Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
No No. By all means Charles was wrong.
You're right, you'd never stop at 1000 grit with a waterstone. That would be like stopping with the soft Arkansas or 400 grit sandpaper. That's why I mentioned the term 'grit equivalent.'
1000 grit paper is not the same as a 1000 grit waterstone. Re-read my post.
You could easily stop at 1000 wet/dry sandpaper and have a nicely polished edge, same with ultra-fine ceramic or hard black Arkansas although I'm not saying these three are perfect equivalents.
The point I've tried to make in this thread is that in a busy hand tool shop a dry system is better. There are two dry systems one can use - ceramics or sandpaper on a flat surface (glass/granite or whatever).
Waterstones work well. I just think there associated with a little more pomp and circumstance in terms of storage requirments and the requirement to flatten them frequently.
Edited 1/13/2005 5:25 pm ET by cstan
That's why I mentioned the term 'grit equivalent.'
Charles, my apologies.. I misunderstood. Your point about best system for a busy shop is well taken; when using the coarser water stones, dealing with the stone pond can be a pain. However, in fairness, I have to say that once you're beyond the need for these, working with the finer stones is no more a hassle than an oil stone; take the stone off the rack and out of it's box, a quick spray with water (as opposed to a squirt of oil), raise a slurry with a nagura stone and have at it. A wipe clean when you're done.. and that's it..
I canna be the only one totally confused with all the incompatible grade systems for each type of cutting media, surely?? Life would be so much easier with one common grade applicable to all of them; microns, widgets, whatever... just something to level the playing field.. The "not invented here" method seems so.. trivial..
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I think dry is the best way to go. You've got two options for a dry system - sandpaper or ceramics.
It may very well be unorthodox, but I take the stone to the tool for things like drawknives and inshaves.
At the end of the day, the ceramics work best for me on all the edges I have to keep sharp. They do the work with the least mess, and they don't want for much maintenance.
I have read 30 replies to your question. It was very interesting how all of us accomplish a sharp edge.
I too like ceramic stones with one exception. They are not flat and this limits their use for scrapers. I use a diamond stone for these.
Edited 1/12/2005 2:00 pm ET by DONC4
I am a gadget junkie . I've bought every conceivable manual sharpening aid over the past 20 years.
About a year ago I bougt a set of Japanese water stones . This is the holy grail of sharpening . The only problem is that nagura stones ( that wear rapidly ) are not readily obtainable here in South Africa.
Happy honing
A F Pienaar
Ja Mnr. Pienaar, ek sit hier in California en lees jou skrywe.
As jy hulp nodig het laat my weet en ek sal vir jou 'n klip in die pos gooi.
I'll let you know when I get to the last few mm of my nagura
Dankie
Pine
Well I went ahead and picked up a couple diamond stones (medium-400 and superfine-1200) from Rockler the other day. They didn't have just fine and the salesperson didn't make it sound like it was really necessary.
1) Is a fine stone (such as 700-800 grit) necessary?
2) Are the grits of these stones based on the US Standard? In other words, is the 400 grit the same as the silicon-carbide equivalent?
3) I have been getting something of a greyish powder after sharpening. I realize that some of it is steel but I didn't expect quite as much. Is it normal to have a fine greyish powder residue?
4) Is it possible (likely) I could be inadvertantely damaging the stones?
Thanks for everyone's help.
Z
I currently use waterstones (Lee Valley for the most part) for my planes and chisels, and a 1" x 42" belt sander with a 5-micron belt to sharpen all the knives around this place. I have no complaints about the sharpness I get using my current methods but you always wonder whether the grass might be greener.....
Has anyone tried the Lee Valley Veritas Power system? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48435&cat=1,43072
I've been looking at it in the local store since it was introduced, but thus far I've had a typically Canadian response of "I'll wait until I see a couple of good test reports." I haven't seen any in the rags I normally read, so I've decided to ask this august body for opinions.
Regards,
Ron
White & black Arkansas stones, SC W/D paper with 3-n-1 oil for fine stuff if I need it. (+600 grit)
Bench grinder with 8 inch AO white stones for setting edges and lathe tools, hard buffs with rouge & emery for finishing edges on gouges -- although I use the Arkansas stones for skews. I've got the Veritas grinding jig I use with the bench grinder, I've found it to be very satisfactory.
I can usually get a shaving edge with the black Arkansas that's quite satisfactory for my chisels and planes.
I suppose I'll eventually invest in a good pair of largish diamond stones.
I've got a set of cheap diamond stones from Harbor Freight I use to flatten the Arkansas stones with -- nine bucks or so, when they get crappy I toss them and buy new.
IIRC, I got the Arkansas stones from Cabela's years ago. Don't know if they offer them at present. I initally started with Arkansas stones because they were inexpensive and I was a newbie. They've worked well, and I've not had a reason to replace them so far.
I won't go into sharpening angles and micro-bevels, everyone here has their favourite system -- find one that works for you and stick with it. It's a little like politics - ask and you'll get seven answers from five people.
Avoid testing an edge over a vein to see if it shaves -- if it doesn't you get to meet someone like me when you get to the ER.
This probably puts me beyond the pale as far as sharpening goes ...
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